Unpopular Opinions - OP Updated with Threadban List 4/5/21

chrisd2019

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly is a much more capable Minister for Health than Simon Harris.7

The whole mother and baby homes scandal is more about compensation than anything else, in effect, money.

On the first one, its a tossup between them as to who is the lesser regarding weakness and lack of effectiveness. Both happy to kick the lack of implementation of anything across to the HSE. Then again the only reason to have created the HSE is to deflect criticism from Department of Health.

Agree 100% with your second comment.

joseywhales

Has anyone ever been happy with a minister for health in any state in history?

Mary harney?

It's like being a goalkeeper except the game has to end with you conceding a goal(everyone dies)

Wanderer78

joseywhales wrote: »

Has anyone ever been happy with a minister for health in any state in history?

Mary harney?

It's like being a goalkeeper except the game has to end with you conceding a goal(everyone dies)

its an impossible job, way too complicated for a single person to oversee

Eric Cartman

joseywhales wrote: »

Has anyone ever been happy with a minister for health in any state in history?

Mary harney?

It's like being a goalkeeper except the game has to end with you conceding a goal(everyone dies)

no, its the most poisoned chalice in the government, the best any health minister could ever do in Ireland is be honest, at every turn just admit 'its lazy, stubborn civil servants and unions as to why we can't fix x'

granturismo

Most Irish people over the age of say 65 or at least 70, should hang their head in shame over the Mother and Baby Homes, County homes, Magdalene Launderies and Orphanages. The mother and baby homes have been compared to the holocaust by one woman who was a child in a Mother & Bay Home, so to continue the comparison, the adult population of the time knew or suspected exactly what was going on in these homes just like the citizens of Germany knew or suspected what was happening in the work and extermination camps.

I went to primary school in the late 1970s and walked past an Orphanage run by nuns, every day on my way to school and back home. We knew it wasnt a good place, some of the kids were in my class, on the way home they'd just turn into the gates and we'd keep on walking. Our teacher in 2nd class was an ablolute c+nt to these kids, she was the only teacher to give them a hard time and they had to return to that place every night. Staff at the orphanage were later convicted of abuse.

Pregnant teenagers and adults were walked into Mother & Baby homes by their family. forced to go or went as part of the collective shame that was prevalent in society at the time. The suffering was organised by the religious orders and successive governments, the brutality meted out by the religious orders and staff, but all of Ireland knew and most did nothing.

El_Duderino 09

granturismo wrote: »

Most Irish people over the age of say 65 or at least 70, should hang their head in shame over the Mother and Baby Homes, County homes, Magdalene Launderies and Orphanages. ...

What would you have done differently if you were over 65?

17togo

granturismo wrote: »

Most Irish people over the age of say 65 or at least 70, should hang their head in shame over the Mother and Baby Homes, County homes, Magdalene Launderies and Orphanages. The mother and baby homes have been compared to the holocaust by one woman who was a child in a Mother & Bay Home, so to continue the comparison, the adult population of the time knew or suspected exactly what was going on in these homes just like the citizens of Germany knew or suspected what was happening in the work and extermination camps.

I went to primary school in the late 1970s and walked past an Orphanage run by nuns, every day on my way to school and back home. We knew it wasnt a good place, some of the kids were in my class, on the way home they'd just turn into the gates and we'd keep on walking. Our teacher in 2nd class was an ablolute c+nt to these kids, she was the only teacher to give them a hard time and they had to return to that place every night. Staff at the orphanage were later convicted of abuse.

Pregnant teenagers and adults were walked into Mother & Baby homes by their family. forced to go or went as part of the collective shame that was prevalent in society at the time. The suffering was organised by the religious orders and successive governments, the brutality meted out by the religious orders and staff, but all of Ireland knew and most did nothing.

I'm torn by this opinion, because I kinda agree with you. I said pretty much this to my parents when all the child sex abuse/Christian brothers stuff was coming out. I remember growing up, and I'm only 40, of going to CBS schools as being a running joke that it was something to be afraid of! So I was throwing it back at them that they knew all about it as every adult did at the time!
But it was different times! Everyone was afraid of their ****e of the church. I'm pretty sure you or I were adults back then we'd have complied with whatever they said too!

Now we're more educated and wise to the world. Hindsight is great I suppose!
My own mother legged it to England with my father when she got pregnant with my brother out of marriage! Thankfully dad stood by her, because she'd have been made give him up. My aunt also got pregnant when she was 18 but my grandmother made her go to one of these homes, the father in that case wasn't as responsible! My grandmother was not a tyrant, she was a midwife that was very well respected in the county she was in, so much so, that I used to be greeted by people informing me she had delivered their kids.

I suppose it's easy say how did ye let this happen when we didn't live in that time!

nolivesmatter

joseywhales wrote: »

Has anyone ever been happy with a minister for health in any state in history?

Mary harney?

It's like being a goalkeeper except the game has to end with you conceding a goal(everyone dies)

Mary Harney got slaughtered worse than most as I remember. Harris I think got less flack than most by deflecting attention to other issues.

Antares35

17togo wrote: »

I'm torn by this opinion, because I kinda agree with you. I said pretty much this to my parents when all the child sex abuse/Christian brothers stuff was coming out. I remember growing up, and I'm only 40, of going to CBS schools as being a running joke that it was something to be afraid of! So I was throwing it back at them that they knew all about it as every adult did at the time!
But it was different times! Everyone was afraid of their ****e of the church. I'm pretty sure you or I were adults back then we'd have complied with whatever they said too!

Now we're more educated and wise to the world. Hindsight is great I suppose!
My own mother legged it to England with my father when she got pregnant with my brother out of marriage! Thankfully dad stood by her, because she'd have been made give him up. My aunt also got pregnant when she was 18 but my grandmother made her go to one of these homes, the father in that case wasn't as responsible! My grandmother was not a tyrant, she was a midwife that was very well respected in the county she was in, so much so, that I used to be greeted by people informing me she had delivered their kids.

I suppose it's easy say how did ye let this happen when we didn't live in that time!

Great post, fair play to your mum and dad. I completely agree, it was a different time and it's easy for us to view it through the ideals of the liberal upbringings we had and say, "why didn't you do xyz at the time?". However, while I can understand a generation that lived in fear then, I can't understand that same generation still attending mass etc. in this day and age, with full knowledge of what happened. It just feels like an endorsement of what went on

17togo

Antares35 wrote: »

Great post, fair play to your mum and dad. I completely agree, it was a different time and it's easy for us to view it through the ideals of the liberal upbringings we had and say, "why didn't you do xyz at the time?". However, while I can understand a generation that lived in fear then, I can't understand that same generation still attending mass etc. in this day and age, with full knowledge of what happened. It just feels like an endorsement of what went on

Yeah I know. For alot of people I think it's out of habit. And down the country where I'm from, it definitely has a social aspect. My parents rarely go now. I think this latest thing has been the final nail in the coffin for them. They'll probably just attend funerals and what-not now! When we were kids we were made go every week and be altar servers. Alot of it was cos that's what the neighbours did kind of attitude I think. Again, different times.

caveat emptor

People shopped in their neighbours in Nazi Germany too. They weren't bad people they were just going along with the prevailing sentiment at the time. Therefore they should be absolved of any wrongdoing?

It's an argument. It's just not a great one.


Reminds me of this.

El_Duderino 09

caveat emptor wrote: »

People shopped in their neighbours in Nazi Germany too. They weren't bad people they were just going along with the prevailing sentiment at the time. Therefore they should be absolved of any wrongdoing?

It's an argument. It's just not a great one.
...

It might not seem like a good argument, but it’s human nature. The Stanford prison experiment shows the same thing - people will go along with the prevailing wisdom at the time.

It’s way too easy to think WE are so clever that WE would have been big rebels and WE would have stood up to the entire community and made a stand. But the reality is we almost certainly would have done along with the norms of the time. If you’re really a big rebel, what activism are you involved in now which is completely counter-cultural today?

Looking around at Boards today and you can see so many strong opinions there are which oppose change. Those same people would have opposed change back then too.

For example the posters who oppose BLM, feminism, LGBTQ+ issues (and there’s a fairly strong overlap). They never say they oppose the core issues or racial equality, gender equality, sexuality equality, but they find other reasons to oppose the movement. E.g. “I’m fine with gender equality, but I can’t stand modern feminism because...”. Those same people would have said something to the effect of “maybe we shouldn’t put the women and babies in homes, but I can’t stand the anti-church, anti-marriage harpies who are campaigning against it”.

People who like the status quo rarely say so, they usually just find loads of reasons to oppose change.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

For example the posters who oppose BLM, feminism, LGBTQ+ issues (and there’s a fairly strong overlap). They never say they oppose the core issues or racial equality, gender equality, sexuality equality, but they find other reasons to oppose the movement. E.g. “I’m fine with gender equality, but I can’t stand modern feminism because...”. Those same people would have said something to the effect of “maybe we shouldn’t put the women and babies in homes, but I can’t stand the anti-church, anti-marriage harpies who are campaigning against it”.

People who like the status quo rarely say so, they usually just find loads of reasons to oppose change.

If you look at how the mainstream media/politics/any reasonably large business works you'll find that these things are already the status quo. I think an argument can be made that these people are the counterculture.

Ash.J.Williams

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It might not seem like a good argument, but it’s human nature. The Stanford prison experiment shows the same thing - people will go along with the prevailing wisdom at the time.

It’s way too easy to think WE are so clever that WE would have been big rebels and WE would have stood up to the entire community and made a stand. But the reality is we almost certainly would have done along with the norms of the time. If you’re really a big rebel, what activism are you involved in now which is completely counter-cultural today?

Looking around at Boards today and you can see so many strong opinions there are which oppose change. Those same people would have opposed change back then too.

For example the posters who oppose BLM, feminism, LGBTQ+ issues (and there’s a fairly strong overlap). They never say they oppose the core issues or racial equality, gender equality, sexuality equality, but they find other reasons to oppose the movement. E.g. “I’m fine with gender equality, but I can’t stand modern feminism because...”. Those same people would have said something to the effect of “maybe we shouldn’t put the women and babies in homes, but I can’t stand the anti-church, anti-marriage harpies who are campaigning against it”.

People who like the status quo rarely say so, they usually just find loads of reasons to oppose change.

everyone loves the quo

El_Duderino 09

Batrachotox wrote: »

If you look at how the mainstream media/politics/any reasonably large business works you'll find that these things are already the status quo. I think an argument can be made that these people are the counterculture.

Yeah I chose those as well established movements which have a track record. If you watch those issues when they’re discussed on Boards, you’ll find the same posters opposed to all of them and they have always been opposed to them. Those posters never say they oppose the main principle behind the movement, but they always side against the vehicle for change.

Those are the people who would have opposed change away from mother and baby homes and loads of other sensible changes, no matter what era they were born into.

notobtuse

partyguinness wrote: »

To say he had absolutely nothing to do with it is stretching it bigtime. He has fanned the flames constantly since November. He held a rally beforehand and told the mob to march on the Capitol. He would have known or at least those in his circle knew that violence was highly likely.

If Trump came out in November and accepted the results with good grace do you really think last Wednesday would have happened? No way.

No need for good graces when the election was stolen though underhanded means.

astrofool

Eric Cartman wrote: »

no, its the most poisoned chalice in the government, the best any health minister could ever do in Ireland is be honest, at every turn just admit 'its lazy, stubborn civil servants and unions as to why we can't fix x'

That we spent untold billions in benchmarking and admin staff for the health service for very little net gain for a decade, only to have the opposition of today proclaim they will fix health by pissing another few billion into a black hole.

The sad thing being that we planned to go with the Dutch approach, but was pushed back by vested interests to land in the crazy medical card kludge we have now.

If a party isn't planning on tackling the unions and admin staff in the health service, they are just promising more of the same and won't fix anything.

ohnonotgmail

notobtuse wrote: »

No need for good graces when the election was stolen though underhanded means.

LOL

Antares35

17togo wrote: »

Yeah I know. For alot of people I think it's out of habit. And down the country where I'm from, it definitely has a social aspect. My parents rarely go now. I think this latest thing has been the final nail in the coffin for them. They'll probably just attend funerals and what-not now! When we were kids we were made go every week and be altar servers. Alot of it was cos that's what the neighbours did kind of attitude I think. Again, different times.

I know it's awful, but any time I've been to a church (funerals etc) I just can't get my head around anyone letting their child be an altar server. When I think back to my time in primary school, I actually get annoyed remembering them marching us to the church for confession. Who the fúck do they think they are asking innocent children to confess their "sins" to an institution that protected and relocated paedophiles. Only thing is we got a laugh out of it I suppose. It was a break from the classroom, a bit of a doss I suppose and the craic standing in line comparing notes and making up confessions

Ash.J.Williams

notobtuse wrote: »

No need for good graces when the election was stolen though underhanded means.

Of all the groups in the world to align with

.anon.

notobtuse wrote: »

No need for good graces when the election was stolen though underhanded means.

This claim about election fraud is disputed.

Mad_maxx

astrofool wrote: »

That we spent untold billions in benchmarking and admin staff for the health service for very little net gain for a decade, only to have the opposition of today proclaim they will fix health by pissing another few billion into a black hole.

The sad thing being that we planned to go with the Dutch approach, but was pushed back by vested interests to land in the crazy medical card kludge we have now.

If a party isn't planning on tackling the unions and admin staff in the health service, they are just promising more of the same and won't fix anything.

the public dont want reform of the health service as that would mean the following

closing down quite a few regional hospitals ( no TD will support this )

cutting numbers working in the HSE ( those people not only have votes but so do their relatives )

reducing wages for many front line staff ( the likes of nurses could look to have their salaries doubled and the majority of the public would support them )

Necro

notobtuse wrote: »

No need for good graces when the election was stolen though underhanded means.

Mod:

I would advise that the Conspiracy Theory Forum is a more appropriate place for these thoughts.

There is already a thread on the US Election, let's not drag that into this thread folks, thanks.

Wibbs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It might not seem like a good argument, but it’s human nature. The Stanford prison experiment shows the same thing - people will go along with the prevailing wisdom at the time.

It’s way too easy to think WE are so clever that WE would have been big rebels and WE would have stood up to the entire community and made a stand. But the reality is we almost certainly would have done along with the norms of the time. If you’re really a big rebel, what activism are you involved in now which is completely counter-cultural today?

Oh very much true, though one can easily argue that the status quo today is just as likely to be contained within the above groups you go on to mention. There can be different and competing status quos at large in any given society too. There usually are. Otherwise the prevailing status quo would have nothing to rail against.

How can one try to spot a status quo de jour? Those who subscribe to it don't consider it as such. A lack of self awareness(and usually irony) is a near given. It's held up as an ideal and something that can be improved upon at some time in the future. It's self congratulatory. It has to establish The Enemy. It insists on buying into all of its internal catechism. A la carte devotees are seen as dubious. It resists change and resists contrary questioning. Any questions must be framed within an already established answer and first positions are out of bounds.

Look at any politic or cultural philosophy or movement or indeed religion and see how it handles doubt. That's a tell. Doubt is uncomfortable, but worthwhile as it tends to lead to questioning, certainty is both ridiculous and dangerous and tends to lead to immutable truths. And has history demonstrates, few immutable truths are truths for very long.

How does one spot the prevailing status quo? People are not publicly afraid to say they're a part of it.

All of the above are just as applicable to the true believers on the "left" as they are to the true believers on the "right".

astrofool

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the public dont want reform of the health service as that would mean the following

closing down quite a few regional hospitals ( no TD will support this )

cutting numbers working in the HSE ( those people not only have votes but so do their relatives )

reducing wages for many front line staff ( the likes of nurses could look to have their salaries doubled and the majority of the public would support them )

Without going too OT, the unions kind of fall back on the frontline nurses to feather their own nest, and many stupid people fall for it, give them a 10% pay rise, by letting go, or reducing pay, of admin and backend staff to fill the pay gap.

17togo

Antares35 wrote: »

I know it's awful, but any time I've been to a church (funerals etc) I just can't get my head around anyone letting their child be an altar server. When I think back to my time in primary school, I actually get annoyed remembering them marching us to the church for confession. Who the fúck do they think they are asking innocent children to confess their "sins" to an institution that protected and relocated paedophiles. Only thing is we got a laugh out of it I suppose. It was a break from the classroom, a bit of a doss I suppose and the craic standing in line comparing notes and making up confessions

We didn't have to do the regular confessions to qualify for the duty!
When my parents weren't going to the same mass as I was doing altar boy for, I'd regularly pretend I went and just hide in a field until the mass traffic passed again! Somehow the mass went ahead without my services! Must've been a miracle!!! 😇
The money was good though! 😠Weddings and funerals would have every altar boy in the parish hoping for the call-up!

Ash.J.Williams

People who over humanise pets a grieve like they lost a human need help


And I love animals

freshpopcorn

I can't remember the exact words she said but that time Joan Burton made a comment about people having ''expensive phones'' and them basically whining about having no money. Well I sort of agree with her.

steddyeddy

astrofool wrote: »

That we spent untold billions in benchmarking and admin staff for the health service for very little net gain for a decade, only to have the opposition of today proclaim they will fix health by pissing another few billion into a black hole.

The sad thing being that we planned to go with the Dutch approach, but was pushed back by vested interests to land in the crazy medical card kludge we have now.

If a party isn't planning on tackling the unions and admin staff in the health service, they are just promising more of the same and won't fix anything.

Half them are related to each other. I know that a a former minister of health tried to get rid of an extremely competent HSE manager before. The manager just stated "I'm not going".

My brother works in the civil service now. Two people came in after a liquid lunch and start arguing, then rolling on the ground fighting. The manager moved one to another department. His uncle is married to one of the head of departments. I'd love to calculate the cost of nepotism in the HSE.

joseywhales

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I can't remember the exact words she said but that time Joan Burton made a comment about people having ''expensive phones'' and them basically whining about having no money. Well I sort of agree with her.

This is what I got told when my dad wouldn't buy me a playstation 1 back in the day. "Sure your mates have a playstation but believe me you wouldn't like living there for a month"