The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

BonnieSituation

salmocab wrote: »

This stadium thing is very odd, ideally Dublin would have a 30,000 stadium but the reality is it would be a waste of money. Building stadiums this size for a handful of matches a year is just a waste of money. We aren’t talking about sports leagues around the world that play week in week out.

But then the arguments about Dublin in CP can move onto how Dublin "wasted money on a stadium".

We can't win ya see.

Happyilylost

odyssey06 wrote: »

Those counties wouldn't get near the same help, if HQ wasn't getting the money from Dublin fans on a packed Hill. That money would be going to the new stadium AND HQ would have to come up with at least €5 million to help.

Maybe they should build a stadium. Maybe they shouldn't. It's up to Dublin GAA to do it if it makes sense for the GAA in the county. It shouldn't be done on the basis of Dublin dominance.

The Dublin dominance thing doesn't bother me. It's just about fairness. If Shane Walsh was needed to kick a free to win an All Ireland Final a la Cluxton/Rock I would love it to on a pitch he knows every blade of grass on, or which way the breeze is likely to pull to ball and in a stadium he knows inside out.

My belief like many not just from Dublin is this is an exceptional group of players who deserve all the admiration they get. I believe the dominance part will end too at some stage.

The home pitch thing does really grate on me though.

BonnieSituation

Just sticking these back in here as they still remain unanswered from last night despite being asked over and over:

1. How have Dublin been handed a free stadium?

2. Does the financial mismanagement in Cork and Galway not concern you as it impinges on the association as a whole and means such latent giants like Wicklow and Longford can't win All-Irelands?

Happyilylost

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do we not remember the audit? Or HQ now paying the loan for Athenry?

A quick Google throws up a quare amount.

Nice article in the Mirror.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/pat-nolan-cork-galway-wont-13765601

I know all about the audit. Our finances. Our issues. Croke Park took over the loan. Galway GAA is still paying it back. Every cent of it.

BonnieSituation

Happyilylost wrote: »

I know all about the audit. Our finances. Our issues. Croke Park took over the loan. Galway GAA is still paying it back. Every cent of it.

You asked for evidence. I gave it to you.

Is that not enough?

---

My other questions remain outstanding.

bucketybuck

padjocollins wrote: »

However they got there, they got there and it for the benefit of the gaa, other counties will have to follow suit and get more return out of their player pool.

To repeat a point that some people want to ignore, it needs to be realised and accepted that there is nothing, nothing, that most counties can do with their player pool that will see them compete with Dublin.

This idea that a good group of lads will get together and win the top trophies is a relic of the 80/90's that has not survived the advent of sports science.

Get more return from their player pool? The likes of Fermanagh could wring 110% from every single player born in the county and they will still not compete with a county that has ten times the players and ten times the resources. There used to be levellers, fitness for example, defensive tactics, or even just catch them on the hop in knock out games, but those have all been dissected and accounted for by teams that are professional in all but name.

If the GAA think there is going to be a return to the norm then they are bigger fools than I already think they are. They need to accept that they have passed a point of no return and adapt their structures accordingly.

Happyilylost

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You asked for evidence. I gave it to you.

Is that not enough?

---

My other questions remain outstanding.

I asked where they bailed Galway Gaa out? They took over the loan. Galway Gaa are still paying it back. Just to Croke Park instead.

Never said Dublin have a free stadium. Dublin still shouldn't be playing so many games in it.

Strumms

RoyalCelt wrote: »

You've had a ridiculous number of advantages and effectively every team has been penalised compared to Dublin this last 15 years. Why is it such a big deal if Dublin get penalised for the next 15?

Yes penalize a team and supporters who dared work hard both on and off the pitch to achieve and maintain an unprecedented level of success.

In tennis, Pete Sampras won 7 Wimbledon titles, ok not quite in a row one year he was beaten but 7 titles in 8 years. People just said fûck it, he’s just that good, a freak if you will. I never heard people begrudge his success, claim he has access to xxx amount in his budget for better training facilities, better coaches, a dietitian, a comfortable private jet to tournaments, in hotel physio.... no, he was just that much of a talent as a player and athlete, he worked hard and was ultra hungry, competitive and with an unparalleled drive to achieve success.

His drive and determination got him to where he could achieve great things. Maybe he did have a better coaching set up then Jim Courier. So what ? If he did he earned it. Maybe he could walk out his back garden at 9pm and hit a few balls on his own floodlit court, fired at him by a machine. Poor old Jim has to wait for the tennis club to open in the morning and go meet his coach. Really ? Tough shît ! Should Sampras have been disadvantaged because he had the gaul to succeed ? A bulldozer come to his house and level his tennis court ? Made play in his bare feet ? NO ! Should he or anyone care about his fellow players, putting in hours upon hours of dedicated time and effort only to fall short again and again ? Should he ****....:):rolleyes: he has achieved success through hard work, dedication, skill and talent, if that brought him 12 titles in a row...he earned and deserved each one, the very same as Dublin.

odyssey06

Happyilylost wrote: »

I asked where they bailed Galway Gaa out? They took over the loan. Galway Gaa are still paying it back. Just to Croke Park instead.

Taking over a loan that another party cannot repay, and restructuring it with a below market value interest rate in that party's favour is a bail out.

Fann Linn

When Dublin get 'split' what league are the separate entities going into.
Will GAA HQ develop the Spawell land as a new stadium will definitely be required?

Happyilylost

odyssey06 wrote: »

Taking over a loan that another party cannot repay, and restructuring it with a below market value interest rate in that party's favour is a bail out.

This didn't happen.

Fann Linn

Happyilylost wrote: »

I asked where they bailed Galway Gaa out? They took over the loan. Galway Gaa are still paying it back. Just to Croke Park instead.

Never said Dublin have a free stadium. Dublin still shouldn't be playing so many games in it.

Donegal had a solution for that but ye laughed at them.
The Leinster counties could drag Dublin outta Croker every year bit they're afraid of missing out on the cash.
Fans calling for Dublin to be taken from Croker cannot have their cake and also eat it.

odyssey06

Happyilylost wrote: »

This didn't happen.

GAA’s Central Council having to take over a loan on an Athenry site, which has since been sold at considerable loss, that Galway had hoped to develop into a training facility.

How is that not a bail out? Why did Central Council have to take over a loan, if Galway could pay it off?

Fann Linn

odyssey06 wrote: »

GAA’s Central Council having to take over a loan on an Athenry site, which has since been sold at considerable loss, that Galway had hoped to develop into a training facility.

How is that not a bail out?

Because its not Dublin.

dunnerc

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Yes, and they are now a level above the level they were at then. They've gone from winning by a point to 10 point annihilation

Are they though ? is there even a tiny possibility that the rest have gone backwards slightly ? :rolleyes:

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Louth won an AI in 1957.
Dublin received 13 times more GDF than Cork despite only 2.5 times the population. There's your reason. They also received a free stadium.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Jesus that would be awful convenient if a post was deleted that was a complete figment of your imagination.

---

While you are sleeping you can mull over the questions I've posed:

How have Dublin been handed a free stadium?

Why don't you care about the GAA bailing out other counties like Cork and Galway and thus, taking funding from Carlow and Leitrim?

See that is another disingenuous comment from tobefrank123.

The fact is -
Dublin do NOT get a FREE stadium they rent it.
I do not think people who rent property think they are getting it free?

Every county is entitled to rent croke park - in fact it was one of the main reasons that the Donegal motion flopped.

Colm 'Wooly' Parkinson discussed that on his podcast the GAA hour

https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports-T...icId=129541521

(See Feb 25th 2019)

Sean Kelly @21:00 was interviewed he said it was a problem with the wording of Donegal's motion was too negative and all embracing.

'No team could nominate Croke Park as thier home venue'

A Meath delegate said they would be precluded from using Croke Park (If Páirc Tailteann was unavailable) given the wording of the Donegal motion - so they were against it.

Kelly said that what they should/could have done as a motion -
was:

Let teams nominate thier home venue.
Play first game at home, the second away, and the third game
- coin toss between competing counties/neutral venue agreed between competing counties.

That is the one Kelly would like to see next year and thinks it would be fairest.

---

So it is clear from this that other counties would also like to keep the option of renting Croke Park - like Meath.

To say Dublin get a 'free' stadium is hyperbole in the extreme.
Plus as I said in an earlier post - life was made too difficult for Dublin to build a €25k stadium - the cost were too prohibitive for it's size (dublin prices) and NAMA got in the way.
So the most cost effective way for Dublin is to continue is to rent Croke Park.

But to say stuff like Dublin get a 'free' stadium just shows how some posters should be writing for the red top tabloids - as they are adept at spinning the truth to thier own agenda.

Dublin are still the biggest cash cow for the Leinster Council - even when the recession hit over a decade ago - it was Dublin who were keeping the Leinster Council afloat.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/leinsters-finances-take-a-massive-hit-85143.html

God knows the damage that would have been done to the Leinster Council if Dublin played all thier games in Parnell Park?

That would mean even less money for Leinster counties and they would be in complete dire straits now altogether.

BonnieSituation

Donnielighto wrote: »

Because cork and galway screwing around like they did doesn't stop too many supporters losing interest, the level of Dublin dominance is bad for the viewnunbers of the GAA overall.


The stadium thing is obvious isn't it, I presume it's due to Parnell not being invested in and Dublin being given the run of CP for championship which was built with central funds directly from a central budget.

If the stadium thing is so "obvious" as you say then it shouldn't be hard to explain how dublinhave gotten a "free" stadium?

I'll keep asking it until it's answered.

It's noticeable how the critics and their assertions keep mving the goalposts when they're challenged on their bull.


---


How have Dublin gotten a "free" stadium?


Is the financial mismanageent and underachievement of Cork and Galway not of concern to anyone as it impinges on the finances available for developing counties?

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See that is another disingenuous comment from tobefrank123.

The fact is -
Dublin do NOT get a FREE stadium they rent it.
I do not think people who rent property think they are getting it free?

Every county is entitled to rent croke park - in fact it was one of the main reasons that the Donegal motion

Colm 'Wooly' Parkinson discussed that on his podcast the GAA hour

https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports-T...icId=129541521

(See Feb 25th 2019)

Sean Kelly @21:00 was interviewed he said it was a problem with the wording of Donegal's motion was too negative and all embracing.

'No team could nominate Croke Park as thier home venue'

A Meath delegate said they would be precluded from using Croke Park (If Páirc Tailteann was unavailable) given the wording of the Donegal motion - so they were against it.

Kelly said that what they should/could have done as a motion -
was:

Let teams nominate thier home venue.
Play first game at home, the second away, and the third game
- coin toss between competing counties/neutral venue agreed between competing counties.

That is the one Kelly would like to see next year and thinks it would be fairest.

---

So it is clear from this that other counties would also like to keep the option of renting Croke Park - like Meath.

To say Dublin get a 'free' stadium is hyperbole in the extreme.
Plus as I said in an earlier post life was made too difficult for Dublin to build a €25k stadium - the cost were too prohibitive for it's size (dublin prices) and NAMA got in the way.
So the most cost effective way for Dublin is to continue is to rent Croke Park.

But to say stuff like Dublin get a 'free' stadium just shows how some posters should be writing for the red top tabloids - as they are adept at spinning the truth to thier own agenda.

Dublin are still the biggest cash cow for the Leinster Council - even when the recession hit over a decade ago - it was Dublin who were keeping the Leinster Council afloat.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/leinsters-finances-take-a-massive-hit-85143.html

God knows the damage that would have been done to the Leinster Council if Dublin played all thier games in Parnell Park?

That would mean even less money for Leinster counties and they would be in complete dire straits now altogether.

I appreciate you answering but I would have thought those making the assertions should back themselves, no?

BonnieSituation

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Leinster hurling championship 2002.

Laois 1-12 Wicklow 0-09

Westmeath 1-14 Kildare 1-10

Carlow 0-09 Meath 1-09

Meath 2-16 Laois 1-18

Westmeath 1-12 Dublin 2-12

Dublin 1-24 Meath 2-12

Wexford 3-15 Dublin 2-12

Fun fact:
Meath player Nicky Horan was the 3rd top scorer in the championship with a tally of 4-20.

There's a few results from 2002. Dublin, Meath, Laois, Westmeath and Carlow were around a similar level. If Meath got the special money treatment for hurling we could be up there with the likes of Laois. So a few other counties like Westmeath and Kildare. I've a feeling the GAA don't give two ****s about hurling in our counties however.

So your response to Bonniedog is a game that Dublin won 17 years ago? Am I missing something here?

Strumms

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See that is another disingenuous comment from tobefrank123.

The fact is -
Dublin do NOT get a FREE stadium they rent it.
I do not think people who rent property think they are getting it free?

Every county is entitled to rent croke park - in fact it was one of the main reasons that the Donegal motion

Colm 'Wooly' Parkinson discussed that on his podcast the GAA hour

https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports-T...icId=129541521

(See Feb 25th 2019)

Sean Kelly @21:00 was interviewed he said it was a problem with the wording of Donegal's motion was too negative and all embracing.

'No team could nominate Croke Park as thier home venue'

A Meath delegate said they would be precluded from using Croke Park (If Páirc Tailteann was unavailable) given the wording of the Donegal motion - so they were against it.

Kelly said that what they should/could have done as a motion -
was:

Let teams nominate thier home venue.
Play first game at home, the second away, and the third game
- coin toss between competing counties/neutral venue agreed between competing counties.

That is the one Kelly would like to see next year and thinks it would be fairest.

---

So it is clear from this that other counties would also like to keep the option of renting Croke Park - like Meath.

To say Dublin get a 'free' stadium is hyperbole in the extreme.
Plus as I said in an earlier post life was made too difficult for Dublin to build a €25k stadium - the cost were too prohibitive and NAMA got in the way.
So the most cost effective way for Dublin to continue is to rent Croke Park.

But to say stuff like Dublin get a 'free' stadium just shows how some posters should be writing for the red top tabloids - as they are adept at spinning the truth to thier own agenda.

Dublin are still the biggest cash cow for the Leinster Council - even when the recession hit over a decade ago - it was Dublin who were keeping the Leinster council a float.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/leinsters-finances-take-a-massive-hit-85143.html

God knows the damage that would have been done to the Leinster Council if Dublin played all thier games in Parnell Park?

That would mean even less money for Leinster counties and they would be in complete dire straits now altogether.

That’s not an agenda that’s going to feed into the narrative of ‘stop Dublin winning’. Feed into the narrative of ....

Hang on, wait, Dublin are renting Croke Park ? Look Mossy I told ya, buying success :D:D

If they get it free booooo, if they pay.... boooooo.... if they play in a small stadium, windswept and unaccommodating to the fans and not meeting anywhere near the demand for tickets so people who are passionate about the sport first of all AND Dublin can go and enjoy, then..... yay ??? :rolleyes:

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I appreciate you answering but I would have thought those making the assertions should back themselves, no?

They won't sure- and it will just go around in circles - now at least my post can be referred to.
It is all there for them in black and white - even a bit of bold!

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They won't sure- and it will just go around in circles - now at least my post can be referred to.
It is all there for them in black and white - even a bit of bold!

But I was really enjoying the squirming.

bruschi

This thread is some car crash. The amount of mis information on both sides of whatever argument are unreal. The worst thing though is peddling things as if they are facts when it is speculation or just general thought rehashed as some set in stone point of fact.

Dublin have benefited from a number of things. Firstly, their natural advantages which no one can do anything about other than Dublin making best use of them. Population, general financing and advertising power, location to the majority of employment in the country meaning no need for population to leave the county, access to a multitude of facilities from public areas or third level institutions and so on. They have natural hindrances too, congestive traffic, hard for clubs to purchase their own lands, other sports. I wouldnt say these balance out, as the advantages far outweigh the cons, but it would be remiss to say they have it all their own way.

The next level of advantage comes from Croke Park as a home ground. There is no doubt this is a massive advantage. But, bar early round Leinster games, there is no real way to change this. Croke Park is our national stadium and it happens to be in Dublin. It must also be stated that this farcical line of "delegates vote for Dublin to play there" is ridiculous. Delegates were told their funding would be cut if they voted to remove Dublin from Croke Park. With threats like that, what do you do? Or what about when Dublin drew Laois and it was fixed for Kilkenny to "cope with the crowd" yet the crowd was less than what Portlaois could have held and Dublin have subsequently played in Portlaois with no issues over crowds. Croke Park as a semi permanent home ground is a fantastic facility, no need to build or upgrade a stadium and having the national stadium as recognisable as any ground helps. It doesnt win games, but it helps.

Lastly, the GAA implemented a new coaching program and used Dublin as the template. It was to have clubs pay 50% of costs of having a full time coach in their club. This started long before it was being made available to other counties, by at least 10 years. So clubs and conversely the county has had a 10 year head start on full time professional coaching. To try say this has had no affect on Dublin is pure head in the sand stuff. It also doesnt make them win games, but you add in so many factors that create the disparity, this to me is what pushed it over the edge.

The East Leinster program is something started within the last 3 years initially starting in urban areas in Meath, Kildare, Wexford and Laois (and maybe Wicklow, cant quite recall) and has somewhat spread to rural areas. It gives clubs the opportunity to apply for part of a full time coach, so they would be shared with other clubs. Some have the ability to have a single club coach too though. However this is not widespread and is on application basis and I know in Wexford after the next round there will be a hold on any more investment in it. this is down to Leinster council. I was privy to a development plan which sought funding similar to what was given to Dublin about 7 or 8 years ago and it was turned down. The very same plan and application, with a few amendments has subsequently now been incorporated into the East Leinster project.

Dublin should be split, but it wont. Smaller counties should be amalgamated, but they wont. The whole county border and provincial set up is from an era that does not fit in competitive sport. Our country is too small to sustain a 32 team competition. It is also why it can never be professional. If anyone looked at the set up now and wanted to start from scratch, you would not keep any of the current set up in any way shape or form. But it is what it is, and history is an important part of the GAA.

So what can be done to bridge the divide? The first thing is to push on ideas like the East Leinster Project and make that bigger and available to more clubs and counties. It will be interesting to see how the counties now getting it in Leinster fare against each other and the ones not involved. A huge investment was made in Dublin to coaching structures and this needs to be replicated. I dont think it will do anything in the medium term, counties are at least 10 if not 15 years behind in this. The natural advantages will still remain, clubs in Dublin operate on bigger finances and numbers than some counties, but the GAA contributed to an already top heavy county and pushed them on even further. There is this perception that Dublin were in the wilderness between 1995 and 2011 when nothing could be further from the truth.

This piece here goes through a lot of the above and the "Perfect Storm". It isnt one particular thing that has Dublin where it is, it is a lot of them at once. But the thing is, this is not a once off thing, this is a sustained thing. There is also a perception this Dublin team is aging and will fall back to the pack, but yet it is proven, through statistics, that the age profile of the team since 2011 has only once been an average over 27, and that was in 2016. Every other year the average age of the team and squad is between 25 and 27. They continuously replenish their side and for some reason people now think that despite them doing this successfully for 9 years that all of a sudden it wont happen now.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/kieran-shannon/the-kieran-shannon-interview-the-real-jackanory-behind-dublins-perfect-storm-942964.html

this Dublin team is exceptional. They will win the 5 in a row and I dont see them being beaten soon. Winning 53 of their last 56 championship games, 2 losses and 1 draw. You might catch them on the hop once every couple of years and who knows, maybe Kerry will catch them on the hop. But that will only make Dublin more determined next year. This dominance wont end soon.

On one hand, you have to admire the team and the great football they play and the history they will make. On the other hand, you weep for the competitiveness of the state of the game.

Strumms

^^^ smaller counties should be amalgamated, maybe Cork and Kerry can join forces and try and beat Dublin ?

RoscommonTom

the only thing now is to split them and to stop giving them mlioms every year, all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

BonnieSituation

RoscommonTom wrote: »

the only thing now is to split them and to stop giving them mlioms every year, all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

Would it?

So then other counties can píss it up against the wall?

Donnielighto

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But then the arguments about Dublin in CP can move onto how Dublin "wasted money on a stadium".

We can't win ya see.

It is an advantage, I'm not saying I don't see why it's there but it is disingenous the amount of posters that gloss over it's.

Also regarding the idea that Dublin contribute to central funding to the central funding is there money anyway that's ridiculous, the GAA generates money at country and county levels. Central funds should be oro rata or strategic.

Dublin went from a basket case with potential to the best supported countyn in terms of provincial and central council support. It was a strategic decision that worked too well and now football is suffering.

Fann Linn

RoscommonTom wrote: »

the only thing now is to split them and to stop giving them mlioms every year, all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

Ye could buy a new bus Tom.

Donnielighto

RoscommonTom wrote: »

the only thing now is to split them and to stop giving them mlioms every year, all the big sponsorhip money would be divided out equally between all the counties,

Not at all, all counties should be responsible for a large portion of their budget and only get central funds depending on how legitimately and effectively they spend it. Counties should be incentivised to earn their own crust, your model would have plenty of mismanaged leeches if there is nothing to get guys acting correctly.


As an aside the number if incompetent county boards is ridiculous.

bucketybuck

bruschi wrote: »

So what can be done to bridge the divide?

IMO the GAA shouldn't even be trying to bridge that divide, the genie is out of the bottle and now they are asking the wrong questions. They need to take a long step back and really ask themselves where they think the sport is going.

For example, if you wanted a GAA product that most resembles the game that has been played for the past century then you should not be looking at intercounty but at the clubs. But does the GAA give a single fart about the club scene? Of course not. They will spend 20 years dicking about with super 8's and super 16's and other mindless changes when if they spent 20 years building the club scene you could have a really good and competitive competition there.