The eBike thread

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Just so I can make a fair comparison. What exact mid drive kit would you recommend (with links and a price) for a fat bike?

I've just done a bit of googling and even a normally cheap direct drive conversion kit isn't that cheap for a fat bike. This is about the best I can find at GBP240 including shipping for a wheel only with a 1500W motor:

Linky

I don't know what make and model that motor is, but it looks like it should take 52 volts and 50+ amps battery power = 2.6 Kw, I'd say even 3 Kw would be possible for short bursts.

Hubs just don't like steep slow trails because they need to spin fast, geared hubs spin faster and are more efficient but they're usually smaller and heat up faster and can't dissipate as much heat, you can however add some oil which really helps dissipate the heat, you can go to endless-sphere to find out which oil to use.

Large hubs are exactly that, large and heavy and cumbersome on slow steep trails.

You need a big ass hub that is wound more for torque, this will heat up less at slow speeds and then just add more voltage for the speed you want but it will be hard to determine this because we don't know what make and model the motor is.

LiPo territory for sure, you just need to think in the beginning what config battery you want and try get as much as you can afford rather than add more LiPo in the future because it's better to keep it all the same age, but the beauty is that you can easy configure it for the kit that you have.

Your controller, you will need to find a 50 or 60 amp controller, or solder the shunt in a 40 amp controller, the configurable Infineon controller can be got in 30, 40 and 60 amp, you can then use the software to configure that to your kit, limit speed, current ( torque ) acceleration and most important with LiPo and no BMS your cut off voltage which should be no less than about 3.6 volts per cell x the number of cells and don't mount the controller in a bag , keep it where air can flow around it.

Back to mid drive, this is the best option really for trails, much smaller lighter motor that can give you all the torque you need in every gear keeping the motor happy by changing to a lower gear, you can't do that with a bub and it will mean less demand on the battery and centre mounted for better stability.

The Bafang BBSHD isn't cheap but you could also buy one of the matching batteries that you can buy with the kit that is easy mount securely on the bike, has the BMS and all of that but it's not going to be cheap however, it's all you will ever need and you don't need to mess with torque arms which will be absolutely essential when you run more than 1 Kw of power even at that you should be using at least 1 but 2 are essential if running big power.

I cooked a Hub Motor going up mount leinster, I was running about 3 Kw most of the way and it got me there but it cooked and the smell of it the whole way home in the car was unreal , it was still pretty warm by the time I got home lol.

Then I went up on the Bosch bike running 500-700 watts , chain drive and only 50 Nm of torque, boy , it was tough , but I did it peddling like a mad lad lol. It was a lot harder than going up with 3 Kw but to be honest most of that power was wasted in heat so what the motor was putting out is anyone's guess.

The point I'm making is that mid drives for this kind of riding are just much more suitable and efficient.

I could have used a much higher powered motor, rated for 3 Kw but that would have been huge. Basically a scooter motor in a bicycle rim.

EM3EV also sells big hubs, this is 8.9 Kg and provided 150 Nm of torque, he says 72 volts so that must mean a 40 amp controller, it's a 17 inch rim or 19 inch. That would be nice , 150 Nm and probably not heat up much at all.

https://em3ev.com/shop/3kw-rear-direct-drive-hub-motor/#parentHorizontalTab1

The BBSHD mid motor rated at 1500 watts weighs 6 Kg and will provide an amazing 160 Nm of torque , ( in any gear )

The BBS02 rated for 750 watts but actually provides around 1 Kw max and weighs less. 4.6 Kg and about 120 Nm of torque, that would probably be plenty.

Remember, smaller wheels provide greater torque and much less stress on the motor, just go to the ebikes.ca motor simulator and play around with different wheel sizes. Smaller wheel diameter = more torque less speed and the opposite for larger rims such as bicycle whee size.

Mid drive is best for hills and trails.

Go to 5:18

BarryM

Jaysus, what is that godawful grinding noise?

Impressive climb, what sort of umph does he have?

BarryM

BarryM wrote: »

Jaysus, what is that godawful grinding noise?

Impressive climb, what sort of umph does he have?

It has 160 Nm of torque, that's a lot and unlike a hub motor , it's available in every gear.

The top of the rang Bosch ebike motor has about 75 Nm, one of the best commercial motors called Brose, made in Berlin has around 110 Nm from a remarkably compact setup. Brose can be found on the German brand bikes called Haibike.

I don't hear a grinding noise ? the mic is picking up a lot of weird noises but chain drive motors are not silent, neither is a hub motor.

You need a big ass heavy bulky hub motor to provide that kind of torque + a lot more power and probably a small diameter wheel, the chain drive can fit any bike easily and provides a lot of power and efficiency in a much smaller lighter package.

unkel

Ok, Mad_Lad. I'll go with your damn mid motor kit

Looks like the Bafang BBS02B 750W would be best suited (and not as eyewateringly expensive as the BBSHD). It comes with a 25A controller, and I presume it is fine to connect a 52V batttery to it (58.8V off the charger) for a peak output of 58.8*25 = 1.5kW?

The P750C looks like the nicest display (I want to see speed, watts produced and battery voltage) and I presume 44 teeth is ok

My preferred seller would be Amazon, for their free return service and pretty much no quibble full refund should something go wrong

Linky GBP391 (EUR451) shipped from German warehouse, so no tax / duties like when the part comes from China

I can get the exact same kit from eBay as well, slightly cheaper at EUR420. Also shipped from Germany, so no duty / VAT

Linky

And it looks like your preferred supplier, EM3EV is out, as they are far more expensive, it has to come from the far east, which takes a long time, and I risk having to pay duty and VAT. Is there any where else better / cheaper than above that I might have missed?

What tools do I need to take the bottom bracket off and fit this? A link to amazon.co.uk would be great!

unkel

hmmmmm

From the small print: "This encompasses the vast majority of bikes excluding some newer high end bikes with an Integrated Bottom Bracket, and Fat tire Bikes with a 100mm wide bottom bracket shell"

So, I will have to go with the Bafang BBSHD then to fit it to a 100mm wide bottom bracket that are used on fat bikes?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

hmmmmm

From the small print: "This encompasses the vast majority of bikes excluding some newer high end bikes with an Integrated Bottom Bracket, and Fat tire Bikes with a 100mm wide bottom bracket shell"

So, I will have to go with the Bafang BBSHD then to fit it to a 100mm wide bottom bracket that are used on fat bikes?

No Idea , do you really need a fat bike ? :-)

You might get more info here and also info on the tool needed.

https://em3ev.com/shop/bafang-48v-750w-bbs02-kit/

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

do you really need a fat bike ? :-)

Nobody needs anything fancy, we'd all survive on bread & water

But yes, I do really want a fat bike, so if going for a Bafang mid drive, I would need the BBSHD. Which is a lot of money, especially from that EM3EV site. I'm sure they are a good crowd with good support, but they ship from the far east so it will take long to get here and will likely attract a big bill for customs and VAT. On top of their prices which aren't very competitive to start with.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

https://em3ev.com/shop/bafang-48v-750w-bbs02-kit/

Interestingly they do have 100mm as an option for the BBS02 kit. How often have you bought from them, how long did it take for the parts to arrive and were you ever stung for customs / VAT?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Interestingly they do have 100mm as an option for the BBS02 kit. How often have you bought from them, how long did it take for the parts to arrive and were you ever stung for customs / VAT?

I bought from Paula couple of times and my kit arrived in about a week and 3 days maybe, I got a mate of mine the same kit about 6 months later and it arrived around the same time.

These days there's a lot more restrictions on batteries so I'm not sure what will happen there if you get a battery from him, he builds his own , he's sound and has great rep on endless-sphere. He also mods some of the kit he sells , it will say it in the description if he has modded it. He has contact with the factories he gets his kits from and makes sure they are built to his spec, basically you're guaranteed a lot more that his kits are better than the average seller out there, there are good sellers but I don't know any, there are too many bad ones so I can only recommend em3ev. It's a long time since I ordered any ebike kit.

You can try endless-sphere and see if anyone there recommends a reliable source to get the BBS02 or BBSHD in Europe, you can be sure someone there will know somewhere.

If you're happy with Amazon that's fine too, but can you be guarnteed the seller is there if something breaks ? are you protected by Amazon and if so for how long ?

If you go the mid drive route I guarntee you won't ever want or need another motor again, it will be the ideal motor and you won't have to mess around buying kits, finding out they're not what you want, you will always want more, better so save yourself the hassle and just get the mid drive if your budget can stretch to that and a good battery to match that you can attach securely to the bike.

You'll have a bike then worth many thousands more than what you paid for it, a lot of the Bosch, Brose equipped ebikes can sell for 5K and up.

Off to bed now, night shift tonight

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're happy with Amazon that's fine too, but can you be guarnteed the seller is there if something breaks ? are you protected by Amazon and if so for how long ?

Oh yes. Their customer service is legendary. I have sent so many things back it's unreal. Even after more than a year, more than 2 years sometimes. They email you a label, you print the label out, stick it on the item and bring it to the post office, for a free return. I've had my Amazon account credited back in full that same day a few times, they are extremely efficient!

Even for graphics cards that had been running for well over a year 24/7/365 overclocked and with a modified BIOS

I feel a bit bad about that, I was taking the p1ss there obviously, but in return Amazon get almost all of my business, they are making a lot of money from me and the owner is now the richest man in the world, I'm sure he doesn't mind

Deleted User wrote: »

If you go the mid drive route I guarntee you won't ever want or need another motor again, it will be the ideal motor and you won't have to mess around buying kits, finding out they're not what you want, you will always want more, better so save yourself the hassle and just get the mid drive if your budget can stretch to that

I'm starting to think like that. The beauty of a mid drive is that you can easily take it out and install on another bike, provided of course the bottom bracket is the same

This hobby hasn't cost me a cent yet, I've sold previous projects for a lot more than I paid for them, which has covered some other purchases like some chargers, connectors, bike stand, lock, battery tester and vruzend kits, etc.

And thinking like that will I forever kick myself going with the BBS02 and not the BBSHD? I'm 100kg and a fat bike is going to be fat (heavy) too.

I won't have anyone build a battery for me. For now I'll go with a 14S4P pack with the vruzend kits, I'm nearly done testing all the free 18650 batteries that I'll use for this. They average about 1750mAh, so this will only be a 7Ah battery, even if I match the parallels perfectly. At 20A and the battery hot off the charger that already means 1.2kW to the motor

Next upgrade then would be the lipo batteries you suggested, which will mean I can put any power to the motor really, several kW no problem. Which again would have a lot less limitation on the BBSHD vs the BBS02, another reason to pick the higher end motor. It is lots of money though. And I haven't even got a fat bike yet. Recommendations?

SlowBlowin

I have just been over to a friends house as he needed some ebike advice.

He has bought an SP866 display (to go with his unbranded controller!) and its reporting an error (E10), when I got there it was wired wrong. I fixed the wiring but it comes up with this error, anyone else any experience with this (cheap ebay) display ?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I bought from Paula couple of times and my kit arrived in about a week and 3 days maybe, I got a mate of mine the same kit about 6 months later and it arrived around the same time.

(

Oops made a boboo, his name is Paul not Paula lol.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I'm starting to think like that. The beauty of a mid drive is that you can easily take it out and install on another bike, provided of course the bottom bracket is the same

And thinking like that will I forever kick myself going with the BBS02 and not the BBSHD? I'm 100kg and a fat bike is going to be fat (heavy) too.

I don't know, better to have all the power than want it ? the BBS02 is smaller and lighter and it will probably provide you will all the grunt you'll ever need, in fact I know it. It's down to cost and weight and whether you feel the need for 160 Nm of torque that would be real power considering my Bosch has only 50 Nm from 2013, I just really wish I had the time to get out on it again and cycle lanes in the country I could take the Boys.

unkel wrote: »

Next upgrade then would be the lipo batteries you suggested, which will mean I can put any power to the motor really, several kW no problem. Which again would have a lot less limitation on the BBSHD vs the BBS02, another reason to pick the higher end motor. It is lots of money though. And I haven't even got a fat bike yet. Recommendations?

The beauty about the BBSHD is that it only needs 30 amps but I am not sure if that is peak or not, this is important to know for the sake of the batteries. A google search might tell you the peak current of the BBSHD.

A hub motor would need to be huge and heavy + also need much more power to supply 160 Nm and not roast it and with the mid drive you will get this torque in every gear.

I would advide you get the gear sensor which will cut the power to the motor when you change gears this will be much easier on your chain, sprockets etc.

With a mid drive with this much power I would advise carrying a spare chain and tools so you can replace and not be stuck somewhere.

SlowBlowin

SlowBlowin wrote: »

I have just been over to a friends house as he needed some ebike advice.

He has bought an SP866 display (to go with his unbranded controller!) and its reporting an error (E10), when I got there it was wired wrong. I fixed the wiring but it comes up with this error, anyone else any experience with this (cheap ebay) display ?

No , unfortunately can't help there unless he fried it due to incorrect wiring.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I would advide you get the gear sensor which will cut the power to the motor when you change gears this will be much easier on your chain, sprockets etc.

I had the whole thing configured (including the gear sensor, which is only a few quid) and sitting in my basket at the EM3EV site. Their price of the BBSHD is actually quite good from them

But then adding that to a half decent fat bike and you're talking over €1.5k. I have a shed, but it has no room for a bike really. So the thing would be standing outside most of the time, waiting to be stolen too.

Deleted User wrote: »

With a mid drive with this much power I would advise carrying a spare chain and tools so you can replace and not be stuck somewhere.

When looking at the pros and cons, that is actually a major con. So is the direct drive when you run out of battery. I had the chain go off my geared hub bike and I didn't even bother putting it back on. Got home on the hub motor, while air pedaling

Two independent drive systems. One fails, the other is still working

I think I'm going for a relatively cheap fat bike (second hand if I can), convert it with the hub motor (or two) and should I want to sell it on it won't have cost me anything

There. Decision taken

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I had the whole thing configured (including the gear sensor, which is only a few quid) and sitting in my basket at the EM3EV site. Their price of the BBSHD is actually quite good from them

But then adding that to a half decent fat bike and you're talking over €1.5k. I have a shed, but it has no room for a bike really. So the thing would be standing outside most of the time, waiting to be stolen too.



When looking at the pros and cons, that is actually a major con. So is the direct drive when you run out of battery. I had the chain go off my geared hub bike and I didn't even bother putting it back on. Got home on the hub motor, while air pedaling

Two independent drive systems. One fails, the other is still working

I think I'm going for a relatively cheap fat bike (second hand if I can), convert it with the hub motor (or two) and should I want to sell it on it won't have cost me anything

There. Decision taken

LOl ok so, go with the hubs.

Carrying a spare chain is not a problem. These days it's not difficult to find a chain with a quick fit link.

unkel

While I have your attention (and you're bored on the night shift), I had the following config in my shopping basket. Any comments? I feel the brakes with connector to the controller are a nonsense, surely when you want to brake, you do not have throttle applied? So I didn't pick them. Comment on the display? It is programmable (you can program the controller with it)

BBSHD 1000W (max 1500W) for 100mm bracket USD559
DCP-14 display USD85
throttle USD5
current rating 30A
bling 36T chainweel (smallest there is? / best for climbing?) USD70
gear sensor USD6

Total USD665
Shipping USD87

Total USD752 (EUR677) and start crying when you are caught for customs / VAT

unkel

unkel wrote: »

While I have your attention (and you're bored on the night shift), I had the following config in my shopping basket. Any comments? I feel the brakes with connector to the controller are a nonsense, surely when you want to brake, you do not have throttle applied? So I didn't pick them. Comment on the display? It is programmable (you can program the controller with it)

BBSHD 1000W (max 1500W) for 100mm bracket USD559
DCP-14 display USD85
throttle USD5
current rating 30A
bling 36T chainweel (smallest there is? / best for climbing?) USD70
gear sensor USD6

Total USD665
Shipping USD87

Total USD752 (EUR677) and start crying when you are caught for customs / VAT

Yeah, the smaller chain ring would be good for climbing but will limit your top speed to what I don't know.

These days it's more common to see no 3 chain rings at the crank on bicycles and run a larger chain ring with a sprocket with a lot of gears and maybe a 40 tooth at the rear to give you the same gear range. So you might need to adjust if it has 3 chain rings up front. If you don't intend to pedal a lot then it might be fine.

Brake connection to the controller are there to cut the power to the motor as a safety cut off switch.

Don't forget to upgrade your brakes too, disk brakes are essential, hydraulic too, I opted for 8 inch disks and bought the adaptors, the difference in stopping power was amazing.

Other than that looks good, don't forget any tools you may need.

Looks good if you're prepared to pay the money.

If you go the mid drive route you will be glad you did in the end !

Joe1919

unkel wrote: »

..... I feel the brakes with connector to the controller are a nonsense, surely when you want to brake, you do not have throttle applied?...

Throttle sticking is relatively common for various reasons.e.g water ingress, spring breaking, jamming, intermittent short circuit between +5v and signal etc. My throttle use to frequently stick due to hand grips ends wearing and hand grip creeping up. The brake switches may also be useful as they usually cancel the cruise function if fitted and activated.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't forget to upgrade your brakes too, disk brakes are essential, hydraulic too

Most fat bikes have hydraulic brakes. I want to get a decent bike with a mid motor eventually (because I'm worth it :pac:) but not until I have a bigger / more secure space to store it. I'm looking forward to having a fat bike though. Any tips / recommendations?

Would a GBP260 fatbike from Amazon be really bad? It's going to be heavy, but surely if I cheaply electrify it that problem should be sorted. Why is there such a small market in Ireland for bikes, there is feck all fat bikes on adverts

unkel

Joe1919 wrote: »

Throttle sticking is relatively common for various reasons.e.g water ingress, spring breaking, jamming, intermittent short circuit between +5v and signal etc. My throttle use to frequently stick due to hand grips ends wearing and hand grip creeping up. The brake switches may also be useful as they usually cancel the cruise function if fitted and activated.

That makes sense. That said, even with the throttle fully open, it should be easy enough to stop the bike with the brakes, despite of the motor?

Connected brakes seem more useful to me for use as regen, but this doesn't seem to be widely used in eBikes? Although I have seen it mentioned in some specs of controllers.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

That makes sense. That said, even with the throttle fully open, it should be easy enough to stop the bike with the brakes, despite of the motor?

Connected brakes seem more useful to me for use as regen, but this doesn't seem to be widely used in eBikes? Although I have seen it mentioned in some specs of controllers.

With 160 Nm of torque at the press of the throttle ? eah, no, not a hope.

Upgrade those brakes , standard bike brakes hydraulic or not are mostly not up to the job. some even upgrade to dual piston calipers.

loughside

[IMG]http://<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/j31sncA"><a href="//imgur.com/a/j31sncA"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/IMG]I started this ebike thing with a cheapish 250w hub chinese folder.
It was handy to throw in the boot of the car and take to the local parks but that was about it, drawbacks were it wasn`t man enough for the hills around here (Co. Down country lanes), and also something which hasn`t been mentioned here is that it was noisy, like those ancient electric milk floats, everybody turned their heads to see what was coming. i done the shunt mod with solder which i have to say helped a lot with performance but drawback was more sound!


My two main objectives with ebikes were torque and silence as far as possible.


Enter the BBS 02 and HD builds.
My first venture was based on one of the old Halfords frames i found on Gumtree, bought for £25 locally. A BBS 02 + Battery conversion was added from this reputable chinese seller (ive dealt with them on a few occasions now) https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32484856225.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.2.39b619d8VXk8Zg All new parts fitted with the addition of an Alfine 8 hub/wheel from Taylor Wheels in Germany (£220 iirc), these are really nice on an ebike.


Pics of converted bike + Alfine 8 Hub.


I`ll get to the BBS HD conversion later.... (the rolls-royce!!)

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

With 160 Nm of torque at the press of the throttle ? eah, no, not a hope.

In my setups, I should be able to reach the XT60 connector between battery and controller. Jerk it out and kill the powah! And of course with a geared hub motor or two I don't think there would be much of a problem too. Any idea what torque geared hub motors and direct drive motors have at certain wattages?

I forgot to put that link up to the Amazon fat bike:

Linky


The yellow one is GBP260 and the other colours are GBP450 for some reason

Joe1919

unkel wrote: »

BBSHD 1000W (max 1500W) for 100mm bracket USD559

Total USD665
Shipping USD87

Total USD752 (EUR677) and start crying when you are caught for customs / VAT

I note Yose Power is doing what looks like similar kit ( but 68mm only) at total 495 euro (474+20) including delivery from europe (no customs). Is it the same after that?
https://www.yosepower.com/en/product/Original-BAFANG-48V1000W-Mid-drive-Motor-Conversion-Kit-BBS01-DIY-E-bike-LCD-Display-Black-BBS-HD-172.html

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Most fat bikes have hydraulic brakes. I want to get a decent bike with a mid motor eventually (because I'm worth it :pac:) but not until I have a bigger / more secure space to store it. I'm looking forward to having a fat bike though. Any tips / recommendations?

Would a GBP260 fatbike from Amazon be really bad? It's going to be heavy, but surely if I cheaply electrify it that problem should be sorted. Why is there such a small market in Ireland for bikes, there is feck all fat bikes on adverts

I've no experience with fat bikes so can't give any advice on them.

No proper cycle lanes, closest one to me is 110 Km away.

Cycling on Country roads with Kids can't be done, more and more outrageous speeding as cars get more refined People don't realise the speed they are doing or probably care. Speed vans and Garda checks mostly on main roads and motorways. 80 Km.hr speed limits on roads you have to stop to allow other cars pass, it's a mental Country.

People are addicted to cars, weather is mostly crap.

Where else would you have hedges along every road causing total blindness to oncoming traffic ? the U.K , sure. It's utter madness.

My Local road, 2 cars can just about pass when they slow down , some parts one car has to stop and pull in somewhere, ditch or entrance or reverse and look at the 80 Km/hr limit ? you couldn't make up some of the stuff that goes on on this Island !

Imagine having small Kids on bikes on this road ?

Joe1919

unkel wrote: »

Connected brakes seem more useful to me for use as regen, but this doesn't seem to be widely used in eBikes? Although I have seen it mentioned in some specs of controllers.

Mid drives and geared hubs have inbuilt clutches that act like freewheels, so you cant have regen. You can on direct drive hubs.