Water charges for excessive usage

Brendan Bendar

Where’s auld ‘Baggy Trousers’ when you need him most.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Silly gifs won’t change fundamental truths,

Water charges haven’t gone away, that is why we are talking about them.

But they have gone away, this is the point.

Have you a recent water bill? No? They've gone away so.

Also, I'm in a relatively new build here, no meter fitted, and the program to fit them has finished, and the "EC" has recommended ones already installed, or new ones installed monitor leaking as opposed as a means to charge folk, it also noted the costs involved in installing them was significantly higher than any gains from doing - you know this.

How this bunch of numpties would start charging folks with meters, while the unmetered crowd (hundreds of thousands of us) aren't is a farcical wet dream you're having blanch.

Up the yard.

blanch152

McMurphy wrote: »

But they have gone away, this is the point.

Have you a recent water bill? No? They've gone away so.

Also, I'm in a relatively new build here, no meter fitted, and the program to fit them has finished, and the "EC" has recommended ones already installed, or new ones installed monitor leaking as opposed as a means to charge folk, it also noted the costs involved in installing them was significantly higher than any gains from doing - you know this.

How this bunch of numpties would start charging folks with meters, while the unmetered crowd (hundreds of thousands of us) aren't is a farcical wet dream you're having blanch.

Up the yard.

For something that you think has gone away, you spend an awful lot of time talking and posting about. Sort of makes a lie of your post.

Water charges are still on the agenda, hence your posts.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

For something that you think has gone away, you spend an awful lot of time talking and posting about. Sort of makes a lie of your post.

Water charges are still on the agenda, hence your posts.

Nobody was talking about water charges here for months until you posted another of your selective attempts of misrepresenting what that Green politician said.


Face facts, water charges are on nobody`s agenda other than your own.
The party you supposedly vote for, but do not appear from your posting history to agree with on practically anything, care about water charges so much they do not have them included in the programme for government.
Says it all really about their agenda.


Good to see from the interview with that Green politician that they are in favour of a referendum on water ownership though.
With you being such an ardent supporter I`m sure you are in agreement with them on that at least.

_Kaiser_

McMurphy wrote: »

Were you the man that sent out the bribes by any chance? Or the lad who dreamt up the PowerPoint presentation slides about Citizens/consumers/customer's?

I remember that one.

In one slide you see the arrogance and condescension that was the ultimately undoing of the whole thing

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

For something that you think has gone away, you spend an awful lot of time talking and posting about. Sort of makes a lie of your post.

Water charges are still on the agenda, hence your posts.

It's a messaging board for discussing things, I haven't posted about water charges in months, but when the thread was resurrected by the brainfart of a green member, I passed comment on it.

Water charges are dead dear blanch, dead. They're over, not coming back, deceased etc etc.

You know who you can blame for that too.

Benedict

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I can just say one thing, as someone who has a meter.... if they charge for excess usage based on my meter, where others don't have one, I will refuse to pay and probably go to jail.

How the heck can they decide what non metered households use?

Nope.

That's the point - they have no way of knowing what non-metered houses are using. And if they had a way of knowing, why would they have installed meters in the first place?

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Silly gifs won’t change fundamental truths,

Water charges haven’t gone away, that is why we are talking about them.

I see today, you're on not only the Sinn Fein thread,

Pushing for water charges in the South

but the FFG thread too

failure to bring back water charges

, complaining about water charges being gone.

I'm glad you've finally woken up and started to smell the coffee blancher.

Benedict

This has been a hugely long thread and has pivoted on one single question which is as follows - "Can IW assess the usage of a home without a metre or not?" IW have claimed they can do this - but in doing so, they have not considered the fact that most Irish people have two eyes, two ears and a brain.

Nobody (not even one person) has shown how IW can assess non-metered homes. IW have claimed that they can do it - but have not explained how.

Without the ability to assess non metered homes, the entire project is dead and the existing meters were a complete wast of taxpayers' money.

If IW had offered a reward of 1 million Euro for anyone coming up with an answer to the problem of how to assess unmetered homes, the 1 million would still be unclaimed.

Yellow_Fern

Benedict wrote: »

This has been a hugely long thread and has pivoted on one single question which is as follows - "Can IW assess the usage of a home without a metre or not?" IW have claimed they can do this - but in doing so, they have not considered the fact that most Irish people have two eyes, two ears and a brain.

Nobody (not even one person) has shown how IW can assess non-metered homes. IW have claimed that they can do it - but have not explained how.

Without the ability to assess non metered homes, the entire project is dead and the existing meters were a complete wast of taxpayers' money.

If IW had offered a reward of 1 million Euro for anyone coming up with an answer to the problem of how to assess unmetered homes, the 1 million would still be unclaimed.

If you live in Inis Mean you probably can ignore mandatory pub closing times. That doesnt mean mandatory pub closing times can't be enforced elsewhere.

What I dont understand is why so many brand new estates dont seem to have water meters

PommieBast

If water charges are to ever rear its ugly head again it will come in the form of a fixed levy. At the time it was metering itself rather than the idea of a resource-specific charge that I objected to.

charlie14

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

If you live in Inis Mean you probably can ignore mandatory pub closing times. That doesnt mean mandatory pub closing times can't be enforced elsewhere.

What I dont understand is why so many brand new estates dont seem to have water meters

Due to the law of diminishing returns perhaps. Or in this case no returns whatsoever.

We already have 750,000 of them buried, nearing or past their lifespan, at enormous expense to the taxpayer that have not returned a red cent.
Water charges are gone so no economic sense too adding insult to injury by burying any more of them.

K.Flyer

Joe Kane wrote: »

I work out on the ground for an IW contractor and I'm installing meters / locating & repairing leaks every day. If you want a new meter installed you will get it.

My understanding from the last time I spoke with IW is that they do not install individual private water meters for people living in apartments.
The actual response was "...Irish Water have no plans to install individual water meters in private apartments for the foreseeable future".
So, no you can't just get one if you ask for one.

NovemberWren

Benedict wrote: »

That's the point - they have no way of knowing what non-metered houses are using. And if they had a way of knowing, why would they have installed meters in the first place?

Do they have a way of knowing? Have they said this? Is there a way of knowing?

jimmycrackcorm

PommieBast wrote: »

If water charges are to ever rear its ugly head again it will come in the form of a fixed levy. At the time it was metering itself rather than the idea of a resource-specific charge that I objected to.

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate.

As for the "we already pay for water crowd", well we already paid income tax before USC was introduced, so where were the people who were out blocking the water installers, when that happened? Or is it too obvious that they had time to do that because USC wasn't something affecting them given they had the free time to do it?

charlie14

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate.

As for the "we already pay for water crowd", well we already paid income tax before USC was introduced, so where were the people who were out blocking the water installers, when that happened? Or is it too obvious that they had time to do that because USC wasn't something affecting them given they had the free time to do it?

Makes you wonder why so much taxpayers money was wasted on a political ideology when the existing property tax could have been used.
No hope of privatisation perhaps

McMurphy

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate.

As for the "we already pay for water crowd", well we already paid income tax before USC was introduced, so where were the people who were out blocking the water installers, when that happened? Or is it too obvious that they had time to do that because USC wasn't something affecting them given they had the free time to do it?

So FG wasted billions of taxpayers money, and damaged Gardai - community relations in many areas of the country, not to mention squandered a chance to introduce some form of metered water charges for at least a generation.....

When all they had to do really, was tack a standing charge on to lpt, income tax etc etc all along, allow revenue to collect it, and overnight get almost 100% compliance**, without the protests, the waste of money in meters that were never used, the damaged community - Gardai relationship in some communities, not to mention the case were a TD and members of the electorate were almost framed in court with lies that never happened?

Your post signifies all that was wrong with Irish water and how they tried to introduce water charges, and you don't even realise it.


**How would you privatise something revenue are in charge of though?

Yellow_Fern

charlie14 wrote: »

Due to the law of diminishing returns perhaps. Or in this case no returns whatsoever.

We already have 750,000 of them buried, nearing or past their lifespan, at enormous expense to the taxpayer that have not returned a red cent.
Water charges are gone so no economic sense too adding insult to injury by burying any more of them.

I check mine forthnightly. I use it for conserving my use and finding leaks. I am delighted that I have it.

charlie14

charlie14 wrote: »

Due to the law of diminishing returns perhaps. Or in this case no returns whatsoever.
We already have 750,000 of them buried, nearing or past their lifespan, at enormous expense to the taxpayer that have not returned a red cent.
Water charges are gone so no economic sense too adding insult to injury by burying any more of them.

Tell me, Charlie, do you scrap a fairly new car just because the battery needs replacing?

charlie14

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I check mine forthnightly. I use it for conserving my use and finding leaks. I am delighted that I have it.

Which do you believe is the most cost effective.
A. Spending billions to provide every household with a meter to check for individual leaks.
B. Spending the same amount to fix mains that are leaking 50% of treated water.

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

Tell me, Charlie, do you scrap a fairly new car just because the battery needs replacing?

If that car had done nothing in all the time I had it Mary, and was not going to do anything until it fell apart, why would I spend more money on it putting a new battery in it ?

K.Flyer

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate. [..]

It is convoluted ideas like that which got IW into the mess it created.
Back in 1993 / 94 the government of the day tried to introduce a flat rate water charge, approx 100 euro in new money, and without the aid of modern day social media they were then met with strong resistance and people saying that they would refuse to pay and the government dropped it.
Water charges mk.II failed even more miserably that the first idea.
I personally would pay water charges as long as it is metered and so is every other single property that consumes water. But that won't happen too soon as they have clearly stated that not all properties will be metered.
So until then, they can carry on as the sham organisation that they are, but they won't see a red cent from me until the system is fair and fully metered.

NovemberWren

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If they are to ever rear their head then it should be a flat tax included as an increase of the existing property tax. Then if you have or get a water meter and show you are not wasting water, you can get a rebate.

I think most people would not mind paying for water, if it was a flat tax.

But the entire installation of meters was nothing short of a fiasco, that seems to have ended, for the present, with almost vast amounts of housing that were not metered.

There was trepidation about it all though, as these smart-meters that indicate and can broadcast usage was alien to people; and this may have been an factor of the reluctance of people. Not all of the smart-meters have sensors in them; but even if all meters and meters with sensors were taken out; it still is possible to put Sensors on the pipes themselves, these may pick-up any actual house, vicinity, and volume.
And when these Sensors, that can be easily put onto the underground pipes, are aligned, and do transmit to the Private Security Guard computers, not just water is videod, but Personal Emissions also. And a great many of these Security Guards are locals and who are only extremely willing for their pals, political cronies, or their own interest, preferred area, or possible house interest; to hunt and target any one Household.

Meters are spoken of a great deal, but more it would be the Actual Sensors that transmit to the Private Security Guard' 'talk-to-each-other' computers (and guards) that needs to be addressed.

charlie14

Nurse!

PommieBast

NovemberWren wrote: »

I think most people would not mind paying for water, if it was a flat tax.

For a lot of people (me included) it was a flat tax, but that did not make any difference. Though to be fair among the people I knew personally it seemed to be a reaction to yet another tax rise, rather than any hatred of water charges themselves.

K.Flyer

PommieBast wrote: »

For a lot of people (me included) it was a flat tax, but that did not make any difference. Though to be fair among the people I knew personally it seemed to be a reaction to yet another tax rise, rather than any hatred of water charges themselves.

I wish people and Irish Water would look at this like other utilities like Gas or Electricity. Any house or property that uses Gas or Electricity from a supplier has a meter, No Exceptions, you pay for your usage it is metered and charged for accordingly.
Now, imagine for a moment a scenario where not everyone has a gas or electric meter and you are told that those with meters will be paying according to their meters, but those without will have a nominal flat fee and can use whatever gas and electricity they like. Would that be fair, no it wouldn't.
But instead of doing it right IW came up the the most awful convoluted bol!oxology for trying to charge people, nevermind the financial bribe.
It was shambles from beginning to end and still is.
The legacy of I.W. will forever rank up there with the electronic voting machines, children's hospital costs and whatever else you feel like adding to that list.
And who in I.W. got a slap on the wrist for royally fcuking it up... That's right, Nobody as usual.

PommieBast

K.Flyer wrote: »

But instead of doing it right IW came up the the most awful convoluted bol!oxology for trying to charge people, nevermind the financial bribe.
It was shambles from beginning to end and still is.

From reading up on Irish history water charging has been a screw-up ever since Jack Lynch abolished it alongside various other local charges in the late-1970s. When I saw the protests back in 2014 I just assumed it was a bunch of communists who were throwing toys out of the pram because they wanted everything to be free, but that was before I knew the background.

charlie14

K.Flyer wrote: »

I wish people and Irish Water would look at this like other utilities like Gas or Electricity. Any house or property that uses Gas or Electricity from a supplier has a meter, No Exceptions, you pay for your usage it is metered and charged for accordingly.
Now, imagine for a moment a scenario where not everyone has a gas or electric meter and you are told that those with meters will be paying according to their meters, but those without will have a nominal flat fee and can use whatever gas and electricity they like. Would that be fair, no it wouldn't.
But instead of doing it right IW came up the the most awful convoluted bol!oxology for trying to charge people, nevermind the financial bribe.
It was shambles from beginning to end and still is.
The legacy of I.W. will forever rank up there with the electronic voting machines, children's hospital costs and whatever else you feel like adding to that list.
And who in I.W. got a slap on the wrist for royally fcuking it up... That's right, Nobody as usual.

Personally I regard IW as a waste of space, time and money but when you reward the minister in charge of the mess with a plum job in Europe, you are guaranteeing anyone further down the line of responsibility can act with impunity.

Benedict

The strategy was to frighten the life out of the public so that people would pay our of fear that they would be cut off if they didn't. Then someone said "Hang on, cutting people off is illegal". And that's when the plan began to crumble because people paused - and once the public paused, IW had lost the battle. They tried to counter-punch by saying "Okay, but we'll reduce you to a trickle if you don't pay". But IW was already on the ropes and fighting a losing battle. People were starting to ask questions and that's the one thing a snake-oil salesman doesn't want you to do.

The fight was lost. After that body-blow, IW were on the canvas while the ref was counting 8...9... 10 out!

jimmycrackcorm

charlie14 wrote:

Personally I regard IW as a waste of space, time and money but when you reward the minister in charge of the mess with a plum job in Europe, you are guaranteeing anyone further down the line of responsibility can act with impunity.

Why should IW be treated any different than the ESB? They both maintain national infrastructure that supplies consumed and necessary to every property?