Rebuttal of "Deer Poacher".

Cass

Firstly, thanks. First person to come on and while i won't say you're defending the guy, you are opening up the discussion which is exactly what i wanted to see.

11117 wrote: »

The whole deer stalking establishments/groups/individual stalkers portray themselves as whiter than white.

Correct.

I’d tend to agree with his assertion about lads shooting that deer on the other side of the “fence” when nobody is around to see.

I tend to agree too, but his assertion is not that some lads might try this if given the chance. He says everyone does it, and anyone that says they don't is talking bullsh*t.

That is a huge, and incorrect, assumption. While there are those that, as you say, paint themselves whiter than white when in fact they may not be, to tarnish the entire community simply because he lives in a world where it happens is wrong, and such statements are the reason why we are forced to defend ourselves because the opposition use those as fact and not he works of fiction they are.

Also I can see some reason behind his logic of the deer groups and certain individuals using their positions to look after themselves and their own when it comes to gaining shooting rights to areas around forestry leases.

Correct too. Look at the IDS and their mandatory training course which has opened the flood gates.

Open it up and allow access to public lands via whatever means, .........

Not sure how i feel about that so i'll refrain from answering.

11117 wrote: »

A lot of the gob****es as you refer to them are the ones with the firearms and dee permits

BEing saying that for years.

The problem with the that attitude and it's evident from the guy's videos, is he believes that others doing is a license for him to do it. The few doing it are the exception, not the rule.

berettaman

Genuinely thought this was a hardy bucks skit.


This guy is all over the shop. Not a jot. He is naming individuals. He is contradicting himself.


He is a disgrace and this is shameful stuff.



I know lads that scrape hard earned cash together to get a lease to shoot deer. They are not "Lah tee Dah", far from it.


This will end badly.

11117

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Apart from NZ,where else has a no season deer hunting regime?NZ has it because deer are an invasive species introduced there 200 years ago.Not to mind how many escapees from deer farms.





The solution to this is simple...Remove the easy money aspect from this and people like Nogsy and his types will disapper under the rock they crawled out from in the first place.Put a 5 year moratorium on sales of wild venison to game dealers and lets see then if;

1] There is an over or under pouplation of deeer here as claimed.

2] How many game dealers will be in profit or not afterwards.As the domestic/UK market is mostly supplied by farmed NZ deer,that our own commercial European deer farmers cant compete.

Are they not an invasive/introduced species here too? Hybridisation with native reds in Wicklow

Exactly, couldn’t agree more. Will it ever happen? No, because the same guys that cry about poaching/ dealers are the same people that use them to fund the crazy money paid for leases. That’s without even talking about the revenue generated from estate stalking sales to dealers

11117

Cass wrote: »

Firstly, thanks. First person to come on and while i won't say you're defending the guy, you are opening up the discussion which is exactly what i wanted to see.

Correct.

I tend to agree too, but his assertion is not that some lads might try this if given the chance. He says everyone does it, and anyone that says they don't is talking bullsh*t.

That is a huge, and incorrect, assumption. While there are those that, as you say, paint themselves whiter than white when in fact they may not be, to tarnish the entire community simply because he lives in a world where it happens is wrong, and such statements are the reason why we are forced to defend ourselves because the opposition use those as fact and not he works of fiction they are.



Correct too. Look at the IDS and their mandatory training course which has opened the flood gates.

Not sure how i feel about that so i'll refrain from answering.


BEing saying that for years.

The problem with the that attitude and it's evident from the guy's videos, is he believes that others doing is a license for him to do it. The few doing it are the exception, not the rule.

Definitely not defending him. He’s brain dead and his videos should be removed immediately. I’m sure he will get what he deserves when the relevant people/authorities catch up with him.

The whole thing needs to be looked at from scratch. There are too many vested interests calling the shots. I’m trying to open up the debate as you say, and trying to put a different perspective on things. It’s not working the way it is and it’s getting worse year on year. That’s even without all the bs you hear getting spouted continuously

Half-cocked

11117 wrote: »

I’m sure he will get what he deserves when the relevant people/authorities catch up with him.

I wouldn't bet on it. Slap on the wrist at most.

Mech1

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gardai-using-sophisticated-dna-analysis-in-war-against-poachers-shooting-and-selling-wild-deer-38327265.html

11117

Mech1 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gardai-using-sophisticated-dna-analysis-in-war-against-poachers-shooting-and-selling-wild-deer-38327265.html

Another one with the same level of iq.

BattleCorp

11117 wrote: »

Another one with the same level of iq.

They are mates. From within a few miles of each other.

They have claimed to have shot over 20 deer in a night. Not sure if that's true but I wouldn't be surprised.

Grizzly 45

11117 wrote: »

Are they not an invasive/introduced species here too? Hybridisation with native reds in Wicklow

Fallow in Norman times .Sika in the 18th century in Powerscourt.Along with pheasents,magpies, Ivy ,Rhotodenderons etc,etc.When does an invasive species stop becoming invasive and a natural part of the countryside?
This is kind of the same stupid arguement made by Natives that "the Brits in NI" should go home to the UK!"Seeing that their fammlies in some cases have been here since the plantations in the 16th century...Also,deer are not at pest level porportions,despite much claims to the contary here as they are in NZ.

Exactly, couldn’t agree more. Will it ever happen? No, because the same guys that cry about poaching/ dealers are the same people that use them to fund the crazy money paid for leases. That’s without even talking about the revenue generated from estate stalking sales to dealers

How much does an average estate make on deer carcasses?After working on Dromoland estate many years ago in the 80s,even back then a few carcasses wont and didnt even pay the wages and up keep of the farm staff. The people who make the money on this are GA's .Low out going on the carcasses,high income returns on the meat,and more so on the sirlions,fillets,oysters and strips.The rest is just extra sugar according to one GD I talked to. Shooting estates making money in Ireland is a myth.Hunters will come here for the novelty value of hunting in Ireland,but until estates or hunting companies more like,can consistently show world class trophies in Reds or fallows or Sika,and I'm talking 6kilo plus dry trophy skull weights that can equal East bloc countries.Which can be done here,if there was proper conservation and planned shoots.No one will take Ireland seriously as a shooting location for deer.

11117

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Fallow in Norman times .Sika in the 18th century in Powerscourt.Along with pheasents,magpies, Ivy ,Rhotodenderons etc,etc.When does an invasive species stop becoming invasive and a natural part of the countryside?
This is kind of the same stupid arguement made by Natives that "the Brits in NI" should go home to the UK!"Seeing that their fammlies in some cases have been here since the plantations in the 16th century...Also,deer are not at pest level porportions,despite much claims to the contary here as they are in NZ.

And in the early 1900’s sika to New Zealand. This is not an argument at all. You’re choosing to side track this with rants about Brits in Northern Ireland!!!
And on your point about deer being at pest levels, they are indeed in Wicklow. They are crossing roads and standing in groups mid day in plain sight of roads. This was not the case 4-5 year ago when you’d be at pains to see one at first light. Believe me I was there back then and am witnessing it now. I’ve never seen as many deer as I have this year.


How much does an average estate make on deer carcasses?After working on Dromoland estate many years ago in the 80s,even back then a few carcasses wont and didnt even pay the wages and up keep of the farm staff. The people who make the money on this are GA's .Low out going on the carcasses,high income returns on the meat,and more so on the sirlions,fillets,oysters and strips.The rest is just extra sugar according to one GD I talked to. Shooting estates making money in Ireland is a myth.Hunters will come here for the novelty value of hunting in Ireland,but until estates or hunting companies more like,can consistently show world class trophies in Reds or fallows or Sika,and I'm talking 6kilo plus dry trophy skull weights that can equal East bloc countries.Which can be done here,if there was proper conservation and planned shoots.No one will take Ireland seriously as a shooting location for deer.

Of course it’s a good source of income for them as well as commercial shooters. Obviously it’s nothing compared to the trophy fees or cull hunt fees. But you cannot deny that at €2/kg within the numbers harvested that it’s not a tidy sum when added up at the end of the season.

Back in the 80’s is not comparable to the present day no matter what way you try to twist it.

11117

BattleCorp wrote: »

They are mates. From within a few miles of each other.

They have claimed to have shot over 20 deer in a night. Not sure if that's true but I wouldn't be surprised.

They are indeed. Both of them aren’t too far from me at all. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it’s true either but at the same time it would be some going. Half the figure might be realistic. We all know how these lads like to inflate the numbers in the pub or wherever

Gorgeousgeorge

The garda in question is my local super. Sound man and he is as straight as they come. Very accommodating of our sport and as a shooting community in kildare be it target/clay/hunting we are very lucky to have him.

Grizzly 45

11117 wrote: »

Of course it’s a good source of income for them as well as commercial shooters. Obviously it’s nothing compared to the trophy fees or cull hunt fees. But you cannot deny that at €2/kg within the numbers harvested that it’s not a tidy sum when added up at the end of the season.

Back in the 80’s is not comparable to the present day no matter what way you try to twist it.

E2 a kilo...Why bother getting out into the field for that?The GD is making 8/10euros a kilo.Just so you have an idea on WHO is making the money here... So much so that some of these fukers arent botherd being hauled into the district court and can pay the max of a 20 k fine imposeable by a dist court there and then,and write it off as a" busisness expense".:mad:

I'm not trying to "twist " anything..Im pointing a fact out from 35 years hunting both in Ireland and abroad that no one will pay the stupid money the Irish expect for sub par trophies and hunting experiance TWICE.And this has been a problem from the 80s. Whether we like it or not.We have novelty value in the international deer hunting scene,not record value.Or in some cases value for money either.

solarwinds

11117 wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Of course it’s a good source of income for them as well as commercial shooters. Obviously it’s nothing compared to the trophy fees or cull hunt fees. But you cannot deny that at €2/kg within the numbers harvested that it’s not a tidy sum when added up at the end of the season.

Back in the 80’s is not comparable to the present day no matter what way you try to twist it.

E2 a kilo...Why bother getting out into the field for that?The GD is making 8/10euros a kilo.Just so you have an idea on WHO is making the money here... So much so that some of these fukers arent botherd being hauled into the district court and can pay the max of a 20 k fine imposeable by a dist court there and then,and write it off as a" busisness expense".:mad:

I'm not trying to "twist " anything..Im pointing a fact out from 35 years hunting both in Ireland and abroad that no one will pay the stupid money the Irish expect for sub par trophies and hunting experiance TWICE.And this has been a problem from the 80s. Whether we like it or not.We have novelty value in the international deer hunting scene,not record value.Or in some cases value for money either.

It could be a different story if proper deer management was employed. A lot of places guys just go in and shoot whatever they can every year both good and bad, and not leaving the strongest to breed.
As usual for most people and not just hunters its all about the short term quick gains and not the bigger picture of longer term management.

Grizzly 45

And in the early 1900’s sika to New Zealand. This is not an argument at all. You’re choosing to side track this with rants about Brits in Northern Ireland!!!
And on your point about deer being at pest levels, they are indeed in Wicklow. They are crossing roads and standing in groups mid day in plain sight of roads. This was not the case 4-5 year ago when you’d be at pains to see one at first light. Believe me I was there back then and am witnessing it now. I’ve never seen as many deer as I have this year.

Oh Lordie!!:rolleyes:
I'm not side tracking anything .I'm pointing the stupidity of your arguement claiming species that have been here for centuries, using the example ofpeople in NI are native not invasive..Although it could be argued arbitarily and subjectively that they are "naturalised" rather than "native,"

Wicklow isnt all of Ireland either...:) There are other parts where there hasnt been a deer sighted in 4or5 years too where they were plentiful.You have "hotspots" in the East as we do in some parts of the West and South,but it doesnt say they are a native and consistent pouplation either.

11117

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

E2 a kilo...Why bother getting out into the field for that?The GD is making 8/10euros a kilo.Just so you have an idea on WHO is making the money here... So much so that some of these fukers arent botherd being hauled into the district court and can pay the max of a 20 k fine imposeable by a dist court there and then,and write it off as a" busisness expense".:mad:

I'm not trying to "twist " anything..Im pointing a fact out from 35 years hunting both in Ireland and abroad that no one will pay the stupid money the Irish expect for sub par trophies and hunting experiance TWICE.And this has been a problem from the 80s. Whether we like it or not.We have novelty value in the international deer hunting scene,not record value.Or in some cases value for money either.

I’m well aware of where and who is making the money here.

Nobody will pay twice? Are you for real. I know a couple of guys running commercial hunts and roughly 75% of their business is returning hunters year on year who are prepared to pay good money for what you call sub standard trophies.

11117

solarwinds wrote: »

It could be a different story if proper deer management was employed. A lot of places guys just go in and shoot whatever they can every year both good and bad, and not leaving the strongest to breed.
As usual for most people and not just hunters its all about the short term quick gains and not the bigger picture of longer term management.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, no matter how unfair it sounds. There are too many licenses issued. 4 or 5 lads are sharing land permission on some places and will shoot the first thing they see because if they don’t the next lad will. This also gives rise to shooting one on the other side of the fence and lends itself to a free for all. We all know this is happening

11117

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh Lordie!!:rolleyes:
I'm not side tracking anything .I'm pointing the stupidity of your arguement claiming species that have been here for centuries, using the example ofpeople in NI are native not invasive..Although it could be argued arbitarily and subjectively that they are "naturalised" rather than "native,"

Wicklow isnt all of Ireland either...:) There are other parts where there hasnt been a deer sighted in 4or5 years too where they were plentiful.You have "hotspots" in the East as we do in some parts of the West and South,but it doesnt say they are a native and consistent pouplation either.

It’s not stupid at all. Just because it’s not in agreement with your philosophy doesn’t make it wrong. They are wild mammals, open it up. Why should they be afforded special status? Because of vested interests and money and greed. . It always comes back to money and greed in this country.

It sure isn’t. Where did I say it was? I used it as an example that there are plenty of deer out there. I have shooting in a couple of places in Tipperary and it’s the same issue there. Of course they are. The numbers are returning because there is less poaching going on now than 5-10 years ago. People are more aware of it throughout the countryside and it’s being rightly reported. 5 years ago you could nearly drive through the Hills in Wicklow in the middle of the night with your lights off because it was that bad. It’s not like that now

Grizzly 45

11117 wrote: »

I’m well aware of where and who is making the money here.

Good! Then dont becoming out saying people are becoming millionares from this

Nobody will pay twice? Are you for real. I know a couple of guys running commercial hunts and roughly 75% of their business is returning hunters year on year who are prepared to pay good money for what you call sub standard trophies.

Any of those trophies over 5 kilo dry weight??? How many Gold heads do they produce per annum under the CIC measuring system?? THAT is the kind of stuff that top payers want to see...And over the years too.So please do stick up their web address so we can see this place and their heads???Seems we like to hide our lights under a bushel here then.:rolleyes:

Here is a German article on how much a disappointment they had.[Google translate will do a trans for you]

https://jagdwaffennetzwerk.blogspot.com/2016/07/misserfolg-auf-sika-in-irland.html
It reads like Fawlty Towers goes hunting. And its not the only one.A google of Irish hunting experiances will say the same. We want to be taken seriously,we need to get our act together.

Grizzly 45

11117 wrote: »

It’s not stupid at all. Just because it’s not in agreement with your philosophy doesn’t make it wrong. They are wild mammals, open it up. Why should they be afforded special status? Because of vested interests and money and greed. . It always comes back to money and greed in this country.

You dont have to agree with me or not..But you havent noticed the contradiction in your arguement???

It sure isn’t. Where did I say it was? I used it as an example that there are plenty of deer out there.

In one particular part of the country... The Irish deer management foroum say themselves,although how they can say it without a survey,that Wicklow is suffering from Hotspots of deer pouplations,while in other areas there is a reduction.

I have shooting in a couple of places in Tipperary and it’s the same issue there. Of course they are. The numbers are returning because there is less poaching going on now than 5-10 years ago

How do we know???Are there any NPWS/AGS/Irish deer organisations figures out there to justify that statement???It seems that we only hear about cases like these when it is a "sure thing"and media reported.

People are more aware of it throughout the countryside and it’s being rightly reported.

Which is a good thing,but no doubt the pros have switched to "thermo vision";) to go about this work.

5 years ago you could nearly drive through the Hills in Wicklow in the middle of the night with your lights off because it was that bad. It’s not like that now

Yeah,they have proably all come over to us here in Clare,Galway and the West.:p

Grizzly 45

11117 wrote: »

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, no matter how unfair it sounds. There are too many licenses issued. 4 or 5 lads are sharing land permission on some places and will shoot the first thing they see because if they don’t the next lad will. This also gives rise to shooting one on the other side of the fence and lends itself to a free for all. We all know this is happening

So do we open the can of worms then of liscensing by payment or by testing??? If it is by payment ,there will only be rich people hunting here within a decade. By testing?We already do such,to an adquate level here for Irelands conditions.[TBH compared to the rest of the EU it's a farsce,but we'll leave that for another time]
How do we decide how many liscenses are too many or too few? By area/county returns?we all know how much a joke the annual return numbers are.
By selling tags? Too bad if you cant afford a 500 euro tag per deer in your area then.Because knowing us Irish thats what it will cost once beuracy and officaldom get hold of things.

You are 100% right on one aspect tho...The money aspect.That has to be removed from this entire equation,and you will then see a dead stop of poaching.

solarwinds

Cant take the credit for that quote above Grizzly

11117

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Good! Then dont becoming out saying people are becoming millionares from this


Any of those trophies over 5 kilo dry weight??? How many Gold heads do they produce per annum under the CIC measuring system?? THAT is the kind of stuff that top payers want to see...And over the years too.So please do stick up their web address so we can see this place and their heads???Seems we like to hide our lights under a bushel here then.:rolleyes:

Here is a German article on how much a disappointment they had.[Google translate will do a trans for you]

https://jagdwaffennetzwerk.blogspot.com/2016/07/misserfolg-auf-sika-in-irland.html
It reads like Fawlty Towers goes hunting. And its not the only one.A google of Irish hunting experiances will say the same. We want to be taken seriously,we need to get our act together.

Where did I state that anyone has become a millionaire🙄. They are making a good living from it all the same. There’s no denying that at all. I don’t know nor care what weight they are to be honest. It’s not my thing. All I do know is these guys are making a damn good living out of it.

I don’t know anything much about the German model of doing things, if it works over there then fair play. Maybe it’s something we should look at and try to implement here. How can we ever look to to be taken seriously elsewhere when we don’t take ourselves seriously? Also, why should we care what anyone else thinks of us? We have enough to do ourselves without worrying what others think

11117

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You dont have to agree with me or not..But you havent noticed the contradiction in your arguement???



In one particular part of the country... The Irish deer management foroum say themselves,although how they can say it without a survey,that Wicklow is suffering from Hotspots of deer pouplations,while in other areas there is a reduction.

How do we know???Are there any NPWS/AGS/Irish deer organisations figures out there to justify that statement???It seems that we only hear about cases like these when it is a "sure thing"and media reported.

Which is a good thing,but no doubt the pros have switched to "thermo vision";) to go about this work.

Yeah,they have proably all come over to us here in Clare,Galway and the West.:p

There is no contradiction there at all. Only facts. You’re coming up with your own agenda here. Reading into something that’s not there.

Exactly. Any fool with a title can spout rubbish and have it published. Where is the deer count/census? Again it’s all speculation. If you choose to believe them then fair play. I know I’d rather believe what I see from being out on the ground.

Most of them wouldn’t have the brains to switch. Honestly I don’t believe that they have. Things have tightened up a lot, even with the game dealers.

Ha ha. Maybe so. But seeing as a lot of them seem to be from my county of Carlow, I doubt they can afford it anymore.

11117

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So do we open the can of worms then of liscensing by payment or by testing??? If it is by payment ,there will only be rich people hunting here within a decade. By testing?We already do such,to an adquate level here for Irelands conditions.[TBH compared to the rest of the EU it's a farsce,but we'll leave that for another time]
How do we decide how many liscenses are too many or too few? By area/county returns?we all know how much a joke the annual return numbers are.
By selling tags? Too bad if you cant afford a 500 euro tag per deer in your area then.Because knowing us Irish thats what it will cost once beuracy and officaldom get hold of things.

You are 100% right on one aspect tho...The money aspect.That has to be removed from this entire equation,and you will then see a dead stop of poaching.

No, definitely not. I don’t know how it’s best done. Maybe a moratorium on new licenses for 5 years? That would be unfair though. Limiting the number of permissions on licence applications perhaps? There are lots of farmers who will sign multiple forms for lads in areas where the population of deer is extremely high. This is an issue.

Money already controls deer stalking. Every year things are getting tighter. I never had a lease or needed one. But as many will agree, only for the trust built up over years with some good landowners, I too would be pushed aside by lads coming in offering plentiful sums to lease lands. I’m lucky that I have hunting on some of the very best private woods in Wicklow and I do my best every year to keep thy relationship going

11117

solarwinds wrote: »

Cant take the credit for that quote above Grizzly

This has obviously gone over my head. Has this been brought up before?

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Good! Then dont becoming out saying people are becoming millionares from this


Any of those trophies over 5 kilo dry weight??? How many Gold heads do they produce per annum under the CIC measuring system?? THAT is the kind of stuff that top payers want to see...And over the years too.So please do stick up their web address so we can see this place and their heads???Seems we like to hide our lights under a bushel here then.:rolleyes:

Here is a German article on how much a disappointment they had.[Google translate will do a trans for you]

https://jagdwaffennetzwerk.blogspot.com/2016/07/misserfolg-auf-sika-in-irland.html
It reads like Fawlty Towers goes hunting. And its not the only one.A google of Irish hunting experiances will say the same. We want to be taken seriously,we need to get our act together.

That was an expensive nightmare of lost opportunities, and lost hunting time that he could have been somewhere else. The business of being expected to use somebody else's crappy rifle without being able to see where it shot is unforgiveable.

All in all, a waste of time that the hunter will never recoup.

tac foley

11117 wrote: »

I don’t know anything much about the German model of doing things, if it works over there then fair play. Maybe it’s something we should look at and try to implement here.

Taking a look at the COMPULSORY courses required of any German shooter to obtain his Jagdschein would quickly acquaint you with the stone-cold sober fact that very few Irish shooters would put up with it. It is just not in the national psyche to do so.

I never hunted over in Germany when we lived there, but I DID shoot competitive handgun and rifle and black powder. If I'd fallen off the pile of documentation I had to deal with, let alone the notes for the compulsory courses I had to pass, I'd have done myself some serious damage.

11117

https://jagdwaffennetzwerk.blogspot.com/2016/07/misserfolg-auf-sika-in-irland.html


Is there an English translation of this anywhere?

tac foley

11117 wrote: »

https://jagdwaffennetzwerk.blogspot.com/2016/07/misserfolg-auf-sika-in-irland.html


Is there an English translation of this anywhere?

Grizzly and I are both fluent German speakers, but I guess that you could use Google translate. Note that there are few non-translatable turns of phrase that look real odd in English. Give us a toot if you get stuck.