The glorious 12th

FrancieBrady

_blaaz wrote: »

You cant whitewash history though?

I think murals are great (even many loyalist ones are dark humour,that i do like)


Even the waterford walls festival are a shout out to the future of murals......nothing quite as depressing as the corporate PC culture rammed down everyones throat and attempts to erode dark humour are wrong imo

The reason there are 'territories' is a direct result of partition and the polarisation for two communities and bolstered by gerrymandering that came later as the suprematist statlet got into full swing.
You are not going to normalise that anomaly overnight or by getting out buckets of whitewash.

What you have to do is normalise relations between the 2 communities. That study shows plainly that there are those who recognise that change must happen and started the process almost as soon as the GFA was signed.

If you are going to have 'territories' and murals for the foreseeable future then this is surely the way to approach it:

Republican muralists played a key role in calming nerves and persuading people to go along with these momentous changes, politically educating the grassroots about the compromises needed in a peace process.

Junkyard Tom

I think those who describe Russell as a 'collaborator' are giving us a little insight as to confused loyalties. Russell wasn't British. Ireland wasn't at war with Germany. You can describe Russell in many ways, an opportunist, misguided, wrong side of history, whatever, but what he most certainly wasn't was a collaborator.

janfebmar

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think those who describe Russell as a 'collaborator' are giving us a little insight as to confused loyalties. Russell wasn't British. Ireland wasn't at war with Germany. You can describe Russell in many ways, an opportunist, misguided, wrong side of history, whatever, but what he most certainly wasn't was a collaborator.

Of course he was a collaborator. Look up the definition of collaboration. Russell was a leader in the IRA. The world was at war, and Germany invaded many neutral countries during the war. It murdered 6 million Jewish civilians during the war, plus others. Russell was at sea in a German submarine when he died, Germany was not running Disney type excursions out in to the Atlantic at that time. Of course Russell was collaborating or attempting to collaborate. Yet another shameful chapter in Republican history.

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

Of course he was a collaborator. Look up the definition of collaboration

Indeed....

.a person who cooperates traitorously with an enemy; a defector

How can acting aginest britain when ireland independant be regarded as traitorist?

You cant be traitor to a country your not from :pac:.....imagine pushing a point and talking down to everyone and not knowing what you saying

Stop moaning ffs

Heyis

Where is this statue of Sean Russell exactly?
And if we want to talk about statues there’s one of Cromwell outside Parliament and it’s a good 30 feet tall.

The ‘but but but’ and constant misrepresentation of other people’s posts by certain elements here tells its own tale.

Bizarre altogether.

davycc

The one of Russell is in st Anne's park on Dublin northside.

Pass it by on the way to work.

It's very well hidden and tiny enough footprint wise. .
I did a tour of the London parliament with some northern brethren and they couldn't stay away from the Fecking Cromwell statute. Each to their own!

Stop moaning ffs

I might be wrong but st Anne’s Park was a private residence at one stage.
So the statue could well have been erected by the owner of the estate.
And not by the baddy Irish government trying to annoy de prods

St Anne’s is mad out of the way and as Daveycc just said the statue is buried in a park nobody goes to in any numbers. It’s a beautiful park.

The statue you’re all rowing about isn’t in town.
I find it odd in the relentless back n forth about it nobody asked where it is.
Soooooooooo all the absolute nonsense about statues is kind of not what we’re talking about really right?

Next up. Jan complaining about the popes cross being offensive to Protestants

Annd9

janfebmar wrote: »

Of course he was a collaborator. Look up the definition of collaboration. Russell was a leader in the IRA. The world was at war, and Germany invaded many neutral countries during the war. It murdered 6 million Jewish civilians during the war, plus others. Russell was at sea in a German submarine when he died, Germany was not running Disney type excursions out in to the Atlantic at that time. Of course Russell was collaborating or attempting to collaborate. Yet another shameful chapter in Republican history.

Isn't it funny that decades later it would be loyalists with links to far right groups and flying swastika flags instead of republicans .

davycc

davycc wrote: »

The one of Russell is in st Anne's park on Dublin northside.

Pass it by on the way to work.

It's very well hidden and tiny enough footprint wise. .
I did a tour of the London parliament with some northern brethren and they couldn't stay away from the Fecking Cromwell statute. Each to their own!

Edit Fairview park , not st Anne's apologies.....

Stop moaning ffs

davycc wrote: »

Edit Fairview park , not st Anne's apologies.....

I’ve been in fairview Park many times and never seen a statue. That’s mad.
Point remains though. Weird it’s location has never been brought up til now.
Fairview is also as you said hardly footfall heavy.

Weird to be complaining about Nazis and statues in a debate about the 12th.

I guess if your ‘culture’ is nothing more than painting kerbs and bonfires you’d probably feel threatened by another language on your road sign. Need to get a grasp of their own language first though maybe.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think those who describe Russell as a 'collaborator' are giving us a little insight as to confused loyalties. Russell wasn't British. Ireland wasn't at war with Germany. You can describe Russell in many ways, an opportunist, misguided, wrong side of history, whatever, but what he most certainly wasn't was a collaborator.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’ve been in fairview Park many times and never seen a statue. That’s mad.
Point remains though. Weird it’s location has never been brought up til now.
Fairview is also as you said hardly footfall heavy.

Weird to be complaining about Nazis and statues in a debate about the 12th.

I guess if your ‘culture’ is nothing more than painting kerbs and bonfires you’d probably feel threatened by another language on your road sign. Need to get a grasp of their own language first though maybe.

blanch152 is the poster who got annoyed about the past being discussed earlier, but of all the imagery, taunting symbol use, bonfires, hanging of recently deceased and living effigies of people he and janfebmar want an obscure statue to a man who lived 70 years ago taken down as a matter of urgency.

Could you write a better example of deflectionary nonsense if you tried?

janfebmar

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think those who describe Russell as a 'collaborator' are giving us a little insight as to confused loyalties. Russell wasn't British. Ireland wasn't at war with Germany. You can describe Russell in many ways, an opportunist, misguided, wrong side of history, whatever, but what he most certainly wasn't was a collaborator.

A collaborator, according to the dictionary, is "A person who works jointly on an activity or project.; an associate" . So you are wrong yet again Junkyard Tom, you are getting things wrong nearly as often as Francie at this stage. Russell was collaborating or attempting to collaborate when he died on the German submarine at sea during WW2.

FrancieBrady

So the 100,000 who joined the BA to fight for them could be called collaborators too?
'A person who works jointly on an activity or project.; an associate'

_blaaz

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So the 100,000 who joined the BA to fight for them could be called collaborators too?
'A person who works jointly on an activity or project.; an associate'

Id imagine the term collaborator would probably fit better with the british army and armagh uvf based around glennane in their campaign of murder of innocent people



Going by jans definition of it

FrancieBrady

_blaaz wrote: »

Id imagine the term collaborator would probably fit better with the british army and armagh uvf based around glennane in their campaign of murder of innocent people



Going by jans definition of it

True.

Junkyard Tom

_blaaz wrote: »

Going by jans definition of it

Let's not go down to crazy town. We all know exactly what he usual hardcore of posters mean when they describe Sean Russell as a collaborator - they're saying it from a position of confused loyalty/nationality.

Highlighted below in blue for any unbiased readers of the thread who are unfamiliar with the cognitive contortions MaryJane, and others, engage in.

Stop moaning ffs

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’ve been in fairview Park many times and never seen a statue. That’s mad.
Point remains though. Weird it’s location has never been brought up til now.
Fairview is also as you said hardly footfall heavy.

Weird to be complaining about Nazis and statues in a debate about the 12th.

I guess if your ‘culture’ is nothing more than painting kerbs and bonfires you’d probably feel threatened by another language on your road sign. Need to get a grasp of their own language first though maybe.

I never knew that statue existed until I read this thread, though why, precisely, it's relevant to this thread, and why Blanch is so concerned about whether Jews may be offended by it undoubtedly remains a mystery to anyone who doesn't understand that these threads are all about whataboutery when the facts don't suit the narrative....

janfebmar

Deleted User wrote: »

I never knew that statue existed until I read this thread, though why, precisely, it's relevant to this thread, and why Blanch is so concerned about whether Jews may be offended by it ..

Jews are quite rightly offended that Ireland has the only statue to a Nazi collaborator in Europe. When Russells statue was beheaded about 14 years ago (not the only time it was vandalised), a JEWISH human rights organisation called for the vandalised statue of IRA leader Sean Russell to be left unrestored in a Dublin park as a symbol of Ireland's "shame" for staying neutral in World War Two.

Quote:
"the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Paris has called for it to be left unrestored as an enduring symbol of Ireland's "shame."

Shimon Samuels, director for international affairs at thecentre, the world's largest Jewish human rights organisation, said: "It's a blot on the history of Ireland, but blots have to see the public light."

He described the statue's desecration as "an opportunity for Ireland to confront its past."

He said: "We're not iconoclasts but I think the destruction of something like this has a meaning, and we would ask for it to be left there as a lesson of what Irish neutrality was all about.""


As said elsewhere, no darker period than WW2 has ever befallen the civilisations of Europe, and those who freely aided the Nazi cause are today very properly reviled throughout the world. Except by Irish Republicans.

Stop moaning ffs

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I never knew that statue existed until I read this thread, though why, precisely, it's relevant to this thread, and why Blanch is so concerned about whether Jews may be offended by it undoubtedly remains a mystery to anyone who doesn't understand that these threads are all about whataboutery when the facts don't suit the narrative....

Totally agree.
Somehow if you’re irish you’re automatically a shinner...checks Jane previous post, AND a Nazi collaborator.
Desperate altogether.

janfebmar

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Totally agree.
Somehow if you’re irish you’re automatically a shinner...checks Jane previous post, AND a Nazi collaborator.
Desperate altogether.

Lol. Your argument is totally defeated when you have to resort to deflection like that. Of course if you are Irish you are probably not a Shinner....I know enough FG, FF and labour voters who are Irish and who would be insulted if you called them Shinners.

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

Lol. Your argument is totally defeated when you have to resort to deflection like that. Of course if you are Irish you are probably not a Shinner....I know enough FG, FF and labour voters who are Irish and who would be insulted if you called them Shinners.

I didn’t deflect anything. I wasn’t even responding to your nonsense

janfebmar

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I didn’t deflect anything. I wasn’t even responding to your nonsense

You referenced me in a post and you made a stupid claim that if you are Irish you are automatically a Shinner. Poor you, talk about a victim mentality. Most Irish people would hate to be called a Shinner. Most Irish people are not Shinners. In modern times SF did not get their first MP elected until the 1980s or their first TD elected until the 1990s.

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

You referenced me in a post and you made a stupid claim that if you are Irish you are automatically a Shinner. Poor you, talk about a victim mentality. Most Irish people would hate to be called a Shinner. Most Irish people are not Shinners. In modern times SF did not get their first MP elected until the 1980s or their first TD elected until the 1990s.

You said irish republicans are Nazi collaborators.
You are literally in cloud cuckoo land.

*a great many Irish republicans would be rightly outraged at you accusing them of being Nazi collaborators.

janfebmar

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You said irish republicans are Nazi collaborators.

Show me that post so. I said the largest Jewish victims rights organisation in the world is offended at the only statue in Europe of a Nazi collaborator, as they see it.

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

Jews are quite rightly offended that Ireland has the only statue to a Nazi collaborator in Europe. When Russells statue was beheaded about 14 years ago (not the only time it was vandalised), a JEWISH human rights organisation called for the vandalised statue of IRA leader Sean Russell to be left unrestored in a Dublin park as a symbol of Ireland's "shame" for staying neutral in World War Two.

Quote:
"the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Paris has called for it to be left unrestored as an enduring symbol of Ireland's "shame."

Shimon Samuels, director for international affairs at thecentre, the world's largest Jewish human rights organisation, said: "It's a blot on the history of Ireland, but blots have to see the public light."

He described the statue's desecration as "an opportunity for Ireland to confront its past."

He said: "We're not iconoclasts but I think the destruction of something like this has a meaning, and we would ask for it to be left there as a lesson of what Irish neutrality was all about.""


As said elsewhere, no darker period than WW2 has ever befallen the civilisations of Europe, and those who freely aided the Nazi cause are today very properly reviled throughout the world. Except by Irish Republicans.

Last paragraph. We adore Nazis AND collaborated with them?

Your words. Right there.

janfebmar

janfebmar wrote: »

Jews are quite rightly offended that Ireland has the only statue to a Nazi collaborator in Europe. When Russells statue was beheaded about 14 years ago (not the only time it was vandalised), a JEWISH human rights organisation called for the vandalised statue of IRA leader Sean Russell to be left unrestored in a Dublin park as a symbol of Ireland's "shame" for staying neutral in World War Two.

Quote:
"the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Paris has called for it to be left unrestored as an enduring symbol of Ireland's "shame."

Shimon Samuels, director for international affairs at thecentre, the world's largest Jewish human rights organisation, said: "It's a blot on the history of Ireland, but blots have to see the public light."

He described the statue's desecration as "an opportunity for Ireland to confront its past."

He said: "We're not iconoclasts but I think the destruction of something like this has a meaning, and we would ask for it to be left there as a lesson of what Irish neutrality was all about.""


As said elsewhere, no darker period than WW2 has ever befallen the civilisations of Europe, and those who freely aided the Nazi cause are today very properly reviled throughout the world. Except by Irish Republicans.

Hmm. Again, how is Jewish offence relevant to a thread about the 12th?

While we're at it, I'm a Republican, but not a Shinner.
I disagree profoundly with Sean Russell's views on the Nazis. I disagree even more vehemently with the British involvement with the Nazis prior to the British actually joining the war effort, due to the balance of scale.

Strange, then, that you have no issue with statues that are offensive to anyone except loyalists, and, apparently, Jews.

Here's the thing, though, Jan.

Would you be willing to have all statues/images, of, say, Trevalyan or Churchill removed in the UK, because they are considered offensive by some Irish?

Because, morally, both positions are entirely equal.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmm. Again, how is Jewish offence relevant to a thread about the 12th?

While we're at it, I'm a Republican, but not a Shinner.
I disagree profoundly with Sean Russell's views on the Nazis. I disagree even more vehemently with the British involvement with the Nazis prior to the British actually joining the war effort, due to the balance of scale.

Strange, then, that you have no issue with statues that are offensive to anyone except loyalists, and, apparently, Jews.

Here's the thing, though, Jan.

Would you be willing to have all statues/images, of, say, Trevalyan or Churchill removed in the UK, because they are considered offensive by some Irish?

Because, morally, both positions are entirely equal.

I tried this wider discussion about 'contentious statues and symbols' with blanch152 but the people wittering on about a republican memorial to a man dead for 70 years or more, accused me of 'whataboutery' on a thread about the 12th July and refused to broaden out the discussion for the usual reasons, they might have to criticise the Unionists or British.

janfebmar

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Last paragraph. We adore Nazis AND collaborated with them?

Your words. Right there.

Wrong again, stop moaning. You are getting as bad as Francie at this stage. Maybe you are Francie?

The words "adore" and "callaborated" are not in the last paragraph.

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

Wrong again, stop moaning. You are getting as bad as Francie at this stage. Maybe you are Francie?

The words "adore" and "callaborated" are not in the last paragraph.

The opposite of reviled is adored. You suggested Irish republicans adored the Nazis. Love to see some back up of that.

I have a picture of a young queen Elizabeth and her sister doing a Nazi salute.
Also pictures of her uncle who abdicated visiting Hitler and they have a lovely bon ami coming out of the photos

Shall I get them for you?

Stop moaning ffs

There it is reich there.