10k gone out of sister account using roblox in 3 months

Cordell

There is a big difference between buying stuff (McD) and buying licences (Videogames). An eaten burger cannot be refunded without McD losing money, but a licenced product can be refunded with virtually no loss.

Samuel T. Cogley

Cordell wrote: »

There is a big difference between buying stuff (McD) and buying licences (Videogames). An eaten burger cannot be refunded without McD losing money, but a licenced product can be refunded with virtually no loss.

Just throwing the question about consideration back into the mix. Anyone ever seen these virtual goods challenged on those grounds?

Del2005

Glass fused light wrote: »

Its not as simple as that for the bank. People have been found guilty of using a card/bank account in a way other than was agreed. Carers of OAP, employees etc. In families there is normaly an unwillingness to turn it into a criminal case. If the Sis wants to make it a criminal matter AML rules come into play. In that case the both bank become involved. The recipient bank should at least freeze 10k of the money in the account untill the matter is resolved. Plus be looking if they have a liability in allowing any other withdrawals too.

The card was used as agreed, to buy items on a console/game. The issue is that the mother never enabled the parental controls, which you are asked to set when you add a CC/DC, to stop the child buying more items. It's different if the child had taken the card and PIN and bought the game items that would be theft by the child, but still nothing to do with the game company.

The parent was negligent and they can't blame anyone but themselves.

cruizer101

As I understand Robux can be used to buy access to other games within Roblox.
Those games are created by other players, so the Robux may well be given to some other player who has cashed out on them.
That being the case a refund would result in a loss to Roblox as they don't have the money anymore.

SusieBlue

OP's sister did the equivalent of letting an unsupervised child use an Amazon account, the child ordered a load of random rubbish, the stuff is delivered, opened and used, and 3 months later OP's sister notices and demands a refund.
They absolutely don't have to honor that, and you can see why. This is something that's frighteningly common and if they gave refunds in every instance of this happening they would make no money.

Its an unfortunate lesson but why you would expect a refund for goods/services that were used is beyond me. The onus is on the adult to either ensure the card details are NOT saved to the account, or that they adequately supervise the child playing the game.
If they cannot do those things, then they only have themselves to blame. Its certainly not Roblox's fault that the child wasn't supervised.

ohnonotgmail

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Just throwing the question about consideration back into the mix. Anyone ever seen these virtual goods challenged on those grounds?

why would that be a grounds for challenge? They paid over cash and received a benefit. the benefit being presumably some additional items that can be used to enhance the game.

victor8600

SusieBlue wrote: »

...Its certainly not Roblox's fault that the child wasn't supervised.

You are right in saying that the CC details should not have been saved on the Roblox account. On the other hand, in my opinion, taking money without pre-defined automatic limits for micro-transactions in games borders on fraud.

Suppose a mistake was made and the CC details are saved in the game. How is a 8-year old supposed to distinguish between a shiny object in the game which costs €1 and is ok to buy and another shiny object which will cost €1000? Why not ask for €1000000?

I think any app that uses micro-transactions should be limited by law to take no more that a pre-defined amount of money per day. If the limit is exceeded, it should explicitly ask to confirm CC details.

ohnonotgmail

victor8600 wrote: »

You are right in saying that the CC details should not have been saved on the Roblox account. On the other hand, in my opinion, taking money without pre-defined automatic limits for micro-transactions in games borders on fraud.

Suppose a mistake was made and the CC details are saved in the game. How is a 8-year old supposed to distinguish between a shiny object in the game which costs €1 and is ok to buy and another shiny object which will cost €1000? Why not ask for €1000000?

I think any app that uses micro-transactions should be limited by law to take no more that a pre-defined amount of money per day. If the limit is exceeded, it should explicitly ask to confirm CC details.

It is a lot easier to just force the entry of a pin code when money is spent in-game. Practically all platforms allow you to do that.

there is an article on the BBC today about it

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48908766

victor8600

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is a lot easier to just force the entry of a pin code when money is spent in-game. Practically all platforms allow you to do that.

there is an article on the BBC today about it

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48908766

Thanks! This is useful.

On an iPhone or iPad: activate Screen Time on the device. You will need to set up a separate parent passcode. Then go to Content and Privacy Restrictions, activate "content and privacy", go to iTunes and App Store Purchases and set to "don't allow".

Always Tired

This is what happens when we let Playstations and Ipads be our babysitters.

I think there should be limits in place either automatically or able to be applied by the adult.

My mother would have noticed a 10er gone missing growing up, someone who wouldn't notice 10k I dont really have much sympathy for.

Thoie

Always Tired wrote: »

I think there should be limits in place either automatically or able to be applied by the adult.

If the adults can't manage the basic defaults on most systems of "ask for a password for any purchase", then they're probably not going to set individual purchase limits either.

beauf

Shelflife wrote: »

So youre suggesting that the Mother report it as theft and have her son arrested for theft and money laundering ?

Aged 8would anything happen, I doubt it.

victor8600

Thoie wrote: »

If the adults can't manage the basic defaults on most systems of "ask for a password for any purchase", then they're probably not going to set individual purchase limits either.

Exactly. That is why I think that reasonably low limits should be set automatically in each app for pre-approved payments. This is not an infringement on personal freedoms, but a safeguard for people who can make a mistake.

Del2005

victor8600 wrote: »

Exactly. That is why I think that reasonably low limits should be set automatically in each app for pre-approved payments. This is not an infringement on personal freedoms, but a safeguard for people who can make a mistake.

You have to choose not to enable verification for purchasing. Why should the company place restrictions when the card holder does not?

victor8600

Del2005 wrote: »

You have to choose not to enable verification for purchasing. Why should the company place restrictions when the card holder does not?

Because in general people choose convenience over security. If you have a game that nags you for 50 cents here, 20 cents there, would you not consider allowing it to take your money automatically? You, personally, probably not, being security-conscious. But a lot of people would just switch off the verification if it means saving time while playing a game. What then stops the game asking you to buy a magic sword for 1000 diamonds which would costs you €500? If you have been conditioned to expect that all items in the game cost you pennies, would you think twice before clicking to buy the expensive item?

runawaybishop

victor8600 wrote: »

Because in general people choose convenience over security. If you have a game that nags you for 50 cents here, 20 cents there, would you not consider allowing it to take your money automatically? You, personally, probably not, being security-conscious. But a lot of people would just switch off the verification if it means saving time while playing a game. What then stops the game asking you to buy a magic sword for 1000 diamonds which would costs you €500? If you have been conditioned to expect that all items in the game cost you pennies, would you think twice before clicking to buy the expensive item?

It takes about 3 seconds to input your purchase pin on Xbox. The account owner chose to disable that. They also had several other options, full password request, child accounts and payment method removal.

Even if you limited it to say 10 euro a day the root issue is the parent chose to disable purchase security.

victor8600

runawaybishop wrote: »

...Even if you limited it to say 10 euro a day the root issue is the parent chose to disable purchase security.

Yes, I agree with all that. Let's see if they get their money back though. Do you think they would?

runawaybishop

victor8600 wrote: »

Yes, I agree with all that. Let's see if they get their money back though. Do you think they would?

I think Roblox would be mad to not refund them

rockingchair1

I hope a refund will be made in this case, however I think it has to be asked how €10k was spent by a minor and went unnoticed for three months? There surely has to be personal responsibility as the card details were not protected.

Always Tired

Always Tired wrote: »

My mother would have noticed a 10er gone missing growing up, someone who wouldn't notice 10k I dont really have much sympathy for.

Wtf Psycho.

beauf

Why is there not a legal obligation for companies to put limits requiring 2 factor authentication on games aimed at kids at different levels of spending.

Never put credit card details in a game. Use a prepaid card.

Glass fused light

The son had access to the card as it was saved but if the child has permission to spend 10K the OP would not be posting. These are two different things.
Its similar to the son having access to a purse held in the house and given permission to take only 10e/20e and then he keeps going back and talking money without permission.

This is why I asked about the exact steps needed to open the account and how and where the parent interacts in the process of opening the account.

If its a clear and simple process where there is an opt in to ingame purchases followed by an option to set up an authorisation method and this can only be done by an verified adult, then the Sister has little comeback against the company.

If the setup is made more complex eg the son could enter the card details, ingame purchase is an automatic sign up, dual authorisation is not a standard part of the ac opening but an additional step the the sister has a starting point.

The sister is not a party to the contract between the company and her son.

While the Sister should have been aware of what was going on with her son and the spending in the game. So she has to take some of the blame for not realising the spending sooner. That she had that amount of cash in a current account is not ideal either.

The question is how was the contract constructed and is the parent liable for the contractual obligation entered into by the son?

Plus why the company did not question why an 8yr old had spent 10,000e in 3 months. I would presume that this would be far in excess of what an average 8yr old would spend.

The son is 8, the company have a process to protect under 13's personal data from abuse they dont have one to protect the child from financial "abuse".

How clear was it to the son that he was spending real money and what the euro equivlant was for each purchase?

A 8 yr old has limites capacity to enter into contracts. This is normaly limited to ones necessery to directly benefit the welfare of a child. Purchasing food, clothing, housing, education etc would fall under this. But a online game which takes the work and IP of the son to profit the company rather than the child would fall far short of this.

The legal question is were these legaly enforcable contracts to begin with or are they void due to the age of the son. If the contracts were entered into in Ireland I say the Court would find in favour of the minor child. If the contract was formed elsewhere it may depend on the law in that state.

As the company have gained 10,000 euro
from a 8 year old I suspect that Mam will be seeking legal advice if the company refuse to deal with the total high value paid out.

runawaybishop

beauf wrote: »

Why is there not a legal obligation for companies to put limits requiring 2 factor authentication on games aimed at kids at different levels of spending.

Never put credit card details in a game. Use a prepaid card.

The child was using an adult account with the security deliberately disabled. Child accounts have built in restrictions.

Gonad

I know someone this happened to . They went to the bank and denied evening knowing the company that the money went to and said it was fully unauthorised.

If your sister told the company a username that would be bad .

Glass fused light

runawaybishop wrote: »

The child was using an adult account with the security deliberately disabled. Child accounts have built in restrictions.

Where was this posted?

Because if this is true and the Mam allowed the account to be set up with a wrong year as a dob she would have little or no legal comeback against the company.

Hal3000

How long was the 8 year old spending on these games? 10k, he must of been on them night and day.

Glass fused light

Hal3000 wrote: »

How long was the 8 year old spending on these games? 10k, he must of been on them night and day.

Where i worked an employee gave their child the co pad with a preloaded co credit card to buy work related apps. The child spent 1,000stg aprox. in 3-4 transactions over a day playing some game. The nipper was 6-8 age group.

Employee had to repay the company.

I have no idea if any attempt was made to recover the money but nothing was recredited to the card.

runawaybishop

Glass fused light wrote: »

Where was this posted?

Because if this is true and the Mam allowed the account to be set up with a wrong year as a dob she would have little or no legal comeback against the company.

I am very familiar with Xbox account restrictions.

Child accounts have restrictions on purchases, including parental approval for every purchase, spending limits, online and chat restrictions and age limit restrictions on games. By default all accounts require passkey or password entry on purchases also and every purchase results in an emailed receipt.

MS have very robust settings on child accounts, they are part of the general windows family settings which give full control over what a child account can and cannot do.

As I have said, only Roblox can refund and they would be unwise not to do so purely from a reputational point of view.

Sleeper12

Gonad wrote:

I know someone this happened to . They went to the bank and denied evening knowing the company that the money went to and said it was fully unauthorised.

This would be fraud, wouldn't it?

Glass fused light

Shelflife wrote: »

So youre suggesting that the Mother report it as theft and have her son arrested for theft and money laundering ?

If the son knew that he was spending the money and that he was spending without permission and that he had spent 10K why should the mother not report it?