10k gone out of sister account using roblox in 3 months

Jupiter Mulligan

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The standard of proof is the balance of probabilities. Sworn testimony, if it came to that, would arguably be enough.

The balance of probability that a sane adult would give a card number and PIN to an 8 year old child being negligible, presumably.

runawaybishop

Op, did your sister not get emailed notifications of purchases?

Glass fused light

OP dont know the game. And have no qualification to give any kind of legal advice

seamus1980 wrote: »

they would look into it, they also said not to contact her bank,My question should she speak to her bank and never mind what roblox said?Any information would be great.Thanks so much all

Your sister should contact her bank and explain what happened. As she is normally obliged to do this under the bank rules.
Flag all of the payments as being done without her permission or authority.

Find out if she needs to do anything to block further payments being processed.

Ask that they produce a sample number of the swift messages* tracing the money from her account to its final destination. As the reciepient is a company data protection should not be used as an excise not to provide this.  This will give the country location of the bank accounts

(* instructional data used by the banking system.)

If the child had access to the bank info instruct the bank to treat the card as stolen and seriously think of opening new account if he has information to directly access the account.
2 actualy, 1 for lodgements and 1 for payments and only transfer enough money in at the start of the month to cover expected bills.

On a side note ask the bank about opening up an account for the child with NO overdraft facility.
Process any pocket money, gifted money and bills (phone games etc through this). Sis gets cash and transfers same amount from her account or lodge cash directly. Debit cards stays with sis but used for purchases by child so he gets to see money in and bills being paid out of his money.


As for the game

Location of sale and location of any legal action
It is a software and access to an e-platform?
In the EU sales of software to individuals have a point of sale fixed by the home country of the buyer.
= what was bought with the money?
As the game rules talk about the EU GDPR i am assuming the access is EU based also?

Was the money spent only internally or were 3rd party products purchased?

How was the account origanally setup?
The actual steps, could he do it all himself or did he have to prove parental permission.
Did your sister get an independant message to approve the setup?
How easy what it to enable parental controls and could he bypass this without the parent knowing?
Was there an option to fix a spending limit.

In order to agree to these Terms, you need to (1) be 18 or older, or have your parent or guardian’s consent to agree to the Terms, and (2) have the power to enter a binding contract with us and not be barred from doing so under any applicable laws.

First argument is that a 8 yr old has not got the power to buy 10k worth of product.
2nd that as mentioned its not for necessities, so irish law would bar  an 8 yr old from contracting for such a high value. 10e or 100e might be a social requirement for cyber kids but not 10k.

Personal information. We strongly encourage you to protect your personal information. In some cases (such as when you are under 13), we employ automated tools and other techniques so as to help comply with legal requirements concerning your personal information.

This rule 2 from the community page shows that they have the ability to put a spend limit on accounts and employ automatic checks even program it  to alert parents of spend limits for approval but choose not to.

This alert was a basic obligation of mobile companies when people ended up with big bills while roming with 2 limits of 75e and 250e. 

The terms also are unfair as the company own the IP and get to value the cash value of the currency if Sis goes legal the solicitor can argue on these terms v an 8 yr old.

The company may argue that the child is bound by the terms not to sue or do so in the US, but Sis in not the party to the contract.

IMO it would be very bad PR for the company to risk the bad publicity of a court case over 10K spent by an 8 yr old. So unless the co have form for bilking its target market minors , its cheaper to pay back the money.

Phileas Frog

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

The balance of probability that a sane adult would give a card number and PIN to an 8 year old child being negligible, presumably.

You don't need a PIN to purchase online, you just need access to the card

Shelflife

The adult would have had to set up the card details on the account and then left it open for online ingame purchases.

The child then used this open facility to run up a big bill.

As far as the bank are concerned the customer got what they paid for so the chargeback option isn’t available.

If you claim the card was stolen as suggested above then logically the authorities would have to be involved and the child would be the chief suspect, is that a can of worms worth opening?

Silly stuff on the part of the adult, you’d have to be playing an awful lot to rack up such a bill, and how do you not notice €10k missing from your account?

I would suggest the only option is to throw yourself at the mercy of the game operators and see if they will give you some sort of a refund.

dazed+confused

Glass fused light wrote:

On a side note ask the bank about opening up an account for the child with NO overdraft facility. Process any pocket money, gifted money and bills (phone games etc through this). Sis gets cash and transfers same amount from her account or lodge cash directly. Debit cards stays with sis but used for purchases by child so he gets to see money in and bills being paid out of his money.

I somehow think it'll be a while before this fella gets any more pocket money!

Del2005

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I just can't see how the parent is vicariously liable given the child made the transaction and contracts with children are voidable. In the above scenario you give I'm sure some sort of agency situation comes into play.

The parent put their card details onto the kids account and didn't bother to enable the protections available, you have to choose what protection level you want when you add a card. The kid played the game but the adult, who added their card to the account, bought the items.

Jupiter Mulligan

Phileas Frog wrote: »

You don't need a PIN to purchase online, you just need access to the card

True. It's the three-digit security code I was thinking of, it never struck me that any sane adult would give her card to her 8 year old.

splinter65

Literally, play silly games? Win silly prizes.

Captcha

Expensive pixels

Up Donegal

Rmulvany wrote: »

Definitely speak to your bank, them telling you not to would be a red flag for me.

My initial reaction when I read that the O.P’s sister was told not to contact her bank, was “there’s something not right here – why don’t they want her to contact the bank?”

Good luck anyway with getting the charges cancelled.

kunst nugget

Two-step authentication is a must if you have a phone or console where you have credit/debit card details and children have access to them. This is something that comes up repeatedly with the likes Fifa or any game with in app purchasing where parents haven't be knowledgeable enough to stop their children automatically buying online for their games.

It's not going to help with the situation the sister is already facing but it will help going forward. The pessimist in me reckons she's not going to see a positive outcome to the money already spent on the game.

https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/1626831?hl=en

runawaybishop

Up Donegal wrote: »

My initial reaction when I read that the O.P’s sister was told not to contact her bank, was “there’s something not right here – why don’t they want her to contact the bank?”

Good luck anyway with getting the charges cancelled.

Because it is pointless, the bank cannot assist as the purchases were authenticated. The only one that can provide the refund is Roblox

Glass fused light

Shelflife wrote: »

The adult would have had to set up the card details on the account and then left it open for online ingame purchases.

The son would only have had card number and seen the pin being used. Its not unknown for children to do this.

However this is not what happened here.

The question here is how clear was it to the cardholder that the card was going to be used for additional purchases.

If the cardholder only approved the subscription payment and as the child of 8 is unlikely to have a line of credit in his own name the Company's choice of how the secondry purchases were approved becomes relevant.

No controls on notifying the cardholder before the 10K was spent by an 8yr old is a choice and a lack of oversight on the financial elements of the game. This is a choice to gain financial enrichment off a party not subject to the contract.

Shelflife wrote: »

The child then used this open facility to run up a big bill.

As far as the bank are concerned the customer got what they paid for so the chargeback option isn’t available.

Agreed a charge back on that basis would not be an option.
But Sis needs to assess the security of the accounts on the basis that the son has access and is living in the house.

Shelflife wrote: »

If you claim the card was stolen as suggested above then logically the authorities would have to be involved and the child would be the chief suspect, is that a can of worms worth opening?

The bank issues a new card number for lost or stolen cards rather than reissue the same numberes card. So any further automated payments are stopped. If the card no. remains active more transations can occur.


The criminal age of responsibility is now 12 yr. At 8, in the Sis financial position, I would expect that a child had been taught the value of money by buying sweets and treats for themselves.

The son did it, theft happens in homes across Ireland. If the son knew that the purchases cost real life money he has stolen from his mother.  For 10k I would involve the Community Garda to teach the son how serious his action was.

Shelflife wrote: »

Silly stuff on the part of the adult, you’d have to be playing an awful lot to rack up such a bill, and how do you not notice €10k missing from your account?

If only from a safety point of view the sister should have been involved setting up the game and checking what was going on and who the son was in contact with.

Automated payments only work if the account holder is active in managing their account.
Its now " in God we trust the rest dont get access to my bank account "

Shelflife wrote: »

I would suggest the only option is to throw yourself at the mercy of the game operators and see if they will give you some sort of a refund.

Would you feel the same if the son had gotten access to a betting site? At least with the betting there is a small chance in wining some money back and the kid gets to learn some maths to work out the odds.

Glass fused light

Del2005 wrote: »

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I just can't see how the parent is vicariously liable given the child made the transaction and contracts with children are voidable. In the above scenario you give I'm sure some sort of agency situation comes into play.

The parent put their card details onto the kids account and didn't bother to enable the protections available, you have to choose what protection level you want when you add a card. The kid played the game but the adult, who added their card to the account, bought the items.

Its not as simple as that for the bank. People have been found guilty of using a card/bank account in a way other than was agreed. Carers of OAP, employees etc. In families there is normaly an unwillingness to turn it into a criminal case. If the Sis wants to make it a criminal matter AML rules come into play. In that case the both bank become involved. The recipient bank should at least freeze 10k of the money in the account untill the matter is resolved. Plus be looking if they have a liability in allowing any other withdrawals too.

somuj

There maybe some hope for you


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48908766

Not legal advice but I have seen companies cave to pressure when things like this go viral.

the_syco

seamus1980 wrote: »

they also said not to contact her bank

When someone ever says this, you contact the bank. They may be trying to stall so that your sister runs out of time of claiming this back.

Contact your bank and ask what's the time limit on chargebacks.

Also, remember to point out that the child is 8. This can have bearing on some cases.

runawaybishop

the_syco wrote: »

When someone ever says this, you contact the bank. They may be trying to stall so that your sister runs out of time of claiming this back.

Contact your bank and ask what's the time limit on chargebacks.

Also, remember to point out that the child is 8. This can have bearing on some cases.

The bank will not do a chargeback as the purchase was legitimate and authenticated.

I used to manage about 20k worth of refunds monthly when I managed Xbox testing, only the company can authorise a refund of this magnitude.

kunst nugget

somuj wrote: »

There maybe some hope for you


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48908766

That was a goodwill gesture on behalf of Nintendo, not EA Sports, and the amount is a fraction of the €10,000 spent by the sister's child. I don't think the two are comparable.

Credit Checker Moose

Surely the bank has some blame here. They should have spotted the abnormal pattern of transactions and phoned/contacted the cardholder.

They are very quick to block my card when I am paying for McDonald's in Russia necessitating an expensive phone call to unblock.

Glass fused light

dazed+confused wrote: »

Glass fused light wrote:

On a side note ask the bank about opening up an account for the child with NO overdraft facility. Process any pocket money, gifted money and bills (phone games etc through this). Sis gets cash and transfers same amount from her account or lodge cash directly. Debit cards stays with sis but used for purchases by child so he gets to see money in and bills being paid out of his money.

I somehow think it'll be a while before this fella gets any more pocket money!

Best punishent ever would be to.have him earn pocketmoney lodged to his account and march him up to the ATM at the end of the month to withdraw the "loan" repayment and have him figure out he'll be 60 + before its repaid😭

Glass fused light

runawaybishop wrote: »

The bank will not do a chargeback as the purchase was legitimate and authenticated.

I used to manage about 20k worth of refunds monthly when I managed Xbox testing, only the company can authorise a refund of this magnitude.

The card was used by a minor who was not the account holder and who did not have the permission of the account holder to make the purchases.

The bank wont be looking at this as a charge back but as theft and subsequent money laundering. If a complaint is processed through the Garda the bank cant go tough not our problem. They are obliged by AML law to investigate and inform other bank, the garda and Revenue.

runawaybishop

Glass fused light wrote: »

The card was used by a minor who was not the account holder and who did not have the permission of the account holder to make the purchases.

The bank wont be looking at this as a charge back but as theft and subsequent money laundering. If a complaint is processed through the Garda the bank cant go tough not our problem. They are obliged by AML law to investigate and inform other bank, the garda and Revenue.

It's not theft, the kid had permission as the card was on their account with no restrictions.

The transaction was authorised, only Roblox can help the Ops sister. Anything else is a waste of time, they need to speak to their customer support first.

Fyi, getting a chargeback applied (if it was possible) can be considered fraud by Microsoft.

Emmersonn

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Surely the bank has some blame here. They should have spotted the abnormal pattern of transactions and phoned/contacted the cardholder.

Most surely the blame lies with the account holder and no one else.Having the card registered on a child's Roblox account and this 8 year old having free reign to spend as they liked shows very little internet supervision by the parents. An expensive lesson hopefully learnedand most surely will not happen again at least in this household

Credit Checker Moose

Way not to answer my post.

runawaybishop

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Way not to answer my post.

It's an authorised and secure transaction. They typically don't get involved for this sort of thing.

I used to spend 4/500 a month on game purchases over a number of years, as did other staff, and the banks didn't once contact me.

They may block the card auth if it is used on a few accounts, as will microsoft.

Shelflife

Glass fused light wrote: »

The card was used by a minor who was not the account holder and who did not have the permission of the account holder to make the purchases.

The bank wont be looking at this as a charge back but as theft and subsequent money laundering. If a complaint is processed through the Garda the bank cant go tough not our problem. They are obliged by AML law to investigate and inform other bank, the garda and Revenue.

So youre suggesting that the Mother report it as theft and have her son arrested for theft and money laundering ?

Credit Checker Moose

So is McDonalds in Red Square. Chip and Pin. I fail to see any difference.

Shelflife

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

So is McDonalds in Red Square. Chip and Pin. I fail to see any difference.

Your are required/expected to contact your bank if you will be using your card outside of your normal location.

The roblox wouldnt be an unusual transaction in this case.

Your card suddenly and without notification turning up in red square would.