10k gone out of sister account using roblox in 3 months

seamus1980

Hello guys,i am looking for a bit of advise,a sister of mine has a son aged 8 and played alot of roblox,My sister didnt log in really much to her bank account until the other day,To her shock here son was using her bank card buying stuff of roblox,As you can guess she is furious:mad::mad: with him,She got on to roblox and they asked for all the transactions which were made(10k gone in 3 months)and they would send then to the accounts department and they would look into it, they also said not to contact her bank,My question should she speak to her bank and never mind what roblox said?Any information would be great.Thanks so much all

Johnnio13

Seems to come up a bit Seamus.
From Roblox:
I have an unauthorized charge on my Card or PayPal account!

If you notice charges on your card or PayPal bill that you did not authorize, please contact Customer Service. Contact Roblox before disputing any charges with your card vendor or bank so we can assist with any charges eligible for refund.

When reporting charges make sure to provide the following:

List the charges by date and amount
Billing Name
Last four digits of the card used or the PayPal account email address
Roblox username (if known)

SusieBlue

This happened to someone I know, it was a couple of hundred quid rather than 10k though!

She disputed it but had no luck, she tried to do a charge back and had no luck with that either. Apparently its all there in the terms and conditions and she got nowhere with it. Maybe your sister will have a better shot at it.

Rmulvany

Not familiar with the game but surely there is no way you that 10k could be spent on in-game transactions? Even in 3 months.
I would be interested to know what the Roblox receipts say if and when they come back.

Definitely speak to your bank, them telling you not to would be a red flag for me. Even if you can get their opinion on your best route of action.

It looks like your nephew will be playing Roblox for a long time

seamus1980

Johnnio13 wrote: »

Seems to come up a bit Seamus.
From Roblox:
I have an unauthorized charge on my Card or PayPal account!

If you notice charges on your card or PayPal bill that you did not authorize, please contact Customer Service. Contact Roblox before disputing any charges with your card vendor or bank so we can assist with any charges eligible for refund.

When reporting charges make sure to provide the following:

List the charges by date and amount
Billing Name
Last four digits of the card used or the PayPal account email address
Roblox username (if known)

Thanks mate i will wait until roblox respond

BillyBird

seamus1980 wrote: »

Hello guys,i am looking for a bit of advise,a sister of mine has a son aged 8 and played alot of roblox,My sister didnt log in really much to her bank account until the other day,To her shock here son was using her bank card buying stuff of roblox,As you can guess she is furious:mad::mad: with him,She got on to roblox and they asked for all the transactions which were made(10k gone in 3 months)and they would send then to the accounts department and they would look into it, they also said not to contact her bank,My question should she speak to her bank and never mind what roblox said?Any information would be great.Thanks so much all

I think the reason they don't want you to contact the bank is that they don't want you to kick off a charge back with the bank before they've had a chance to review.



This is fair enough if they plan to refund the money in full.



However I'd give the bank a call to see what time limits they place on chargebacks. I'd also discuss the issue with the bank to see their view on where you stand. The bank will in any case most likely tell you to try to resolve with Roblox first.


In any case I'd be pushing for a full refund from Roblo, don't settle for a partial refund.

seamus1980

SusieBlue wrote: »

This happened to someone I know, it was a couple of hundred quid rather than 10k though!

She disputed it but had no luck, she tried to do a charge back and had no luck with that either. Apparently its all there in the terms and conditions and she got nowhere with it. Maybe your sister will have a better shot at it.

Thank you,hopefully she will

seamus1980

Rmulvany wrote: »

Not familiar with the game but surely there is no way you that 10k could be spent on in-game transactions? Even in 3 months.
I would be interested to know what the Roblox receipts say if and when they come back.

Definitely speak to your bank, them telling you not to would be a red flag for me. Even if you can get their opinion on your best route of action.

It looks like your nephew will be playing Roblox for a long time

Yea mate it was 10k as she has all the paper to prove so

Tasfasdf

seamus1980 wrote: »

Yea mate it was 10k as she has all the paper to prove so

Dam, did he buy the game company with all that money. Anyways surely since its unauthorised use of card there has to be some way to get the money back.

SusieBlue

I think they came back and said that it was the responsibility of the card holder to ensure it was used safely and with authorization, and that if she saved her card details to the account and left her son on it unsupervised that wasn't their problem.

Not to make you lose hope but if you google it you'll find thousands of similar cases and people seldom get their money back.

nuac

Mod

To move onto legal discussion can anyone put up the terms and conditions under which that service operates?

Surprised that an eight year old can incur such a liability

Johnny Jukebox

This happened to me when my son ran up about 500 euro worth of in-app purchases on the Apple Store.

I requested a full refund on the basis that he did not have explicit permission to use the CC associated with the account for the purchases. They reviewed in some depth and refunded in full.

This may, however, have influenced their policy at the time.

https://www.cio.com/article/2388045/apple-to-settle-class-action-lawsuit-on-in-app-purchases-by-minors.html

Thoie

nuac wrote: »

Mod

To move onto legal discussion can anyone put up the terms and conditions under which that service operates?

Surprised that an eight year old can incur such a liability

https://en.help.roblox.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004647846-Roblox-Terms-of-Use


As with many online games, you connect a credit card to the account for a subscription, and that can be used for making in game purchases. On Google Android, for example, you can set things up so that any payments being made against the google account (your credit card), require a password each time. Many parents seem to miss this. They connect a device to their account, and once you're in the device you can pretty much buy anything. The device password is separate from the google account password. So the child knows that the device password is "1111" and use it to play their favourite game. Because the parent hasn't locked down the payments, the child can click any "buy now" button, and the transaction is authorised.

https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/1626831?hl=en&ref_topic=3365267

I don't know about other systems like Apple and Microsoft, but Google have numerous ways to protect against this kind of scenario. Their default is that every transaction requires authorisation (by way of a password, for example). If you've given your password to your 8 year old, or turned off authentication, it's akin to giving a child their own credit card and telling them to go wild.

Samuel T. Cogley

I've always wondered if there is adequacy or sufficiency (can't remember which one is relevant here) to these transactions for virtual goods.

Samuel T. Cogley

Thoie wrote: »

I don't know about other systems like Apple and Microsoft, but Google have numerous ways to protect against this kind of scenario. Their default is that every transaction requires authorisation (by way of a password, for example). If you've given your password to your 8 year old, or turned off authentication, it's akin to giving a child their own credit card and telling them to go wild.

Hopefully it is that because in that scenario I'd suggest that the child lacks the capacity to contract, except for necessities. I'd further suggest that the only way for these sort of companies to enforce would be to say password was used, password is yours ergo you made the transactions. If they admit they believe the child made the transactions surely the parent is home free?

Thoie

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Hopefully it is that because in that scenario I'd suggest that the child lacks the capacity to contract, except for necessities. I'd further suggest that the only way for these sort of companies to enforce would be to say password was used, password is yours ergo you made the transactions. If they admit they believe the child made the transactions surely the parent is home free?

In my (non-legal) mind, it'd be the same as giving a child your credit card and PIN, and letting them loose in a toy shop with self-service checkout. The assumption is that if you have my card and my PIN, then you're me.

Anyone know what the legal situation would be if that happened in a real shop with self-service checkouts?

gibgodsman

Sorry to say but your completely liable for that 10k, you gave a child a phone with a credit card attached and expected nothing to happen? How can people be so careless. Yeah the game is disgusting taking your money, but there is literally nothing you can do about that, a Charge back will fail and if it doesn't fully expect Roblox parent company to sue

GooglePlus

Can they carry out a chargeback with the card provider?

An indemnity claim isn't an option, as it wasn't a direct debit.

runawaybishop

The bank won't do a chargeback, as far as they are concerned there is no evidence the transaction is incorrect as it was authenticated. Only Roblox can refund you, Microsoft cannot help either.

Jupiter Mulligan

nuac wrote: »

Mod

To move onto legal discussion can anyone put up the terms and conditions under which that service operates?

Surprised that an eight year old can incur such a liability

The eight year old didn't incur the liability, the cardholder did.

coylemj

I don't understand how you can do a chargeback when it involves a debit from a current account. If I buy a banger for 2K from a local motor dealer using my debit card and it turns out to be a turkey, will my bank entertain a chargeback and give me my money back? Will they 'eck!

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I've always wondered if there is adequacy or sufficiency (can't remember which one is relevant here) to these transactions for virtual goods.

Sorry missed 'of consideration' in the above.

Samuel T. Cogley

Thoie wrote: »

In my (non-legal) mind, it'd be the same as giving a child your credit card and PIN, and letting them loose in a toy shop with self-service checkout. The assumption is that if you have my card and my PIN, then you're me.

Anyone know what the legal situation would be if that happened in a real shop with self-service checkouts?

To me that's an analogous scenario alright, but lets assume the card T&C's say 'in the event of use by a child the parent is responsible' I think that term would be void given contracts with minors are voidable.


My jargon might be off it's been a while.

Mundo7976

How it took three months to realise such big amounts were being spent!!
Think the child may have way more privilages than they should!

micks_address

We had something much smaller with FIFA points a few years ago. Our son order 125 euro of ultimate team points from the ea store on PlayStation. They would have refunded if he hadn't used but he had opened the packs or whatever so no joy. Lesson learned never leave an active payment method on the PlayStation account... Can't imagine how you wouldn't miss 10k though unless you were very wealthy..

ED E

Rmulvany wrote: »

Not familiar with the game but surely there is no way you that 10k could be spent on in-game transactions? Even in 3 months.

Hah, you'd think but no. Most FTP games work on <1% of players who are "whales" and spend a fortune.


Star Citizen, a game that is not finished and may not ever be, has sold $27,000 ship packs before. Thats not a typo.

Thoie

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

To me that's an analogous scenario alright, but lets assume the card T&C's say 'in the event of use by a child the parent is responsible' I think that term would be void given contracts with minors are voidable.


My jargon might be off it's been a while.

But the contract wouldn't be with the child, the contract is with the adult?

If my mother gives me (an adult) her credit card and PIN, and asks me to go buy X for her. While out, I also spend €1,000 on myself on her card. In that scenario the bank would hold her responsible, as her card wasn't stolen/skimmed - she gave it to me. Now, she might be able to have me arrested for theft, but she'd still owe the money to the bank.

To my mind it'd be the same situation if I was a child, except she may not be able to have me done for theft.

Samuel T. Cogley

Thoie wrote: »

But the contract wouldn't be with the child, the contract is with the adult?

If my mother gives me (an adult) her credit card and PIN, and asks me to go buy X for her. While out, I also spend €1,000 on myself on her card. In that scenario the bank would hold her responsible, as her card wasn't stolen/skimmed - she gave it to me. Now, she might be able to have me arrested for theft, but she'd still owe the money to the bank.

To my mind it'd be the same situation if I was a child, except she may not be able to have me done for theft.

I just can't see how the parent is vicariously liable given the child made the transaction and contracts with children are voidable. In the above scenario you give I'm sure some sort of agency situation comes into play.

micks_address

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Thoie wrote: »

But the contract wouldn't be with the child, the contract is with the adult?

If my mother gives me (an adult) her credit card and PIN, and asks me to go buy X for her. While out, I also spend €1,000 on myself on her card. In that scenario the bank would hold her responsible, as her card wasn't stolen/skimmed - she gave it to me. Now, she might be able to have me arrested for theft, but she'd still owe the money to the bank.

To my mind it'd be the same situation if I was a child, except she may not be able to have me done for theft.

I just can't see how the parent is vicariously liable given the child made the transaction and contracts with children are voidable. In the above scenario you give I'm sure some sort of agency situation comes into play.

Well how can you prove it wasn't the parent playing the game?

Samuel T. Cogley

micks_address wrote: »

Well how can you prove it wasn't the parent playing the game?

The standard of proof is the balance of probabilities. Sworn testimony, if it came to that, would arguably be enough.

splinter65

micks_address wrote: »

Well how can you prove it wasn't the parent playing the game?

Exactly.

Jupiter Mulligan

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The standard of proof is the balance of probabilities. Sworn testimony, if it came to that, would arguably be enough.

The balance of probability that a sane adult would give a card number and PIN to an 8 year old child being negligible, presumably.

runawaybishop

Op, did your sister not get emailed notifications of purchases?

Glass fused light

OP dont know the game. And have no qualification to give any kind of legal advice

seamus1980 wrote: »

they would look into it, they also said not to contact her bank,My question should she speak to her bank and never mind what roblox said?Any information would be great.Thanks so much all

Your sister should contact her bank and explain what happened. As she is normally obliged to do this under the bank rules.
Flag all of the payments as being done without her permission or authority.

Find out if she needs to do anything to block further payments being processed.

Ask that they produce a sample number of the swift messages* tracing the money from her account to its final destination. As the reciepient is a company data protection should not be used as an excise not to provide this.  This will give the country location of the bank accounts

(* instructional data used by the banking system.)

If the child had access to the bank info instruct the bank to treat the card as stolen and seriously think of opening new account if he has information to directly access the account.
2 actualy, 1 for lodgements and 1 for payments and only transfer enough money in at the start of the month to cover expected bills.

On a side note ask the bank about opening up an account for the child with NO overdraft facility.
Process any pocket money, gifted money and bills (phone games etc through this). Sis gets cash and transfers same amount from her account or lodge cash directly. Debit cards stays with sis but used for purchases by child so he gets to see money in and bills being paid out of his money.


As for the game

Location of sale and location of any legal action
It is a software and access to an e-platform?
In the EU sales of software to individuals have a point of sale fixed by the home country of the buyer.
= what was bought with the money?
As the game rules talk about the EU GDPR i am assuming the access is EU based also?

Was the money spent only internally or were 3rd party products purchased?

How was the account origanally setup?
The actual steps, could he do it all himself or did he have to prove parental permission.
Did your sister get an independant message to approve the setup?
How easy what it to enable parental controls and could he bypass this without the parent knowing?
Was there an option to fix a spending limit.

In order to agree to these Terms, you need to (1) be 18 or older, or have your parent or guardian’s consent to agree to the Terms, and (2) have the power to enter a binding contract with us and not be barred from doing so under any applicable laws.

First argument is that a 8 yr old has not got the power to buy 10k worth of product.
2nd that as mentioned its not for necessities, so irish law would bar  an 8 yr old from contracting for such a high value. 10e or 100e might be a social requirement for cyber kids but not 10k.

Personal information. We strongly encourage you to protect your personal information. In some cases (such as when you are under 13), we employ automated tools and other techniques so as to help comply with legal requirements concerning your personal information.

This rule 2 from the community page shows that they have the ability to put a spend limit on accounts and employ automatic checks even program it  to alert parents of spend limits for approval but choose not to.

This alert was a basic obligation of mobile companies when people ended up with big bills while roming with 2 limits of 75e and 250e. 

The terms also are unfair as the company own the IP and get to value the cash value of the currency if Sis goes legal the solicitor can argue on these terms v an 8 yr old.

The company may argue that the child is bound by the terms not to sue or do so in the US, but Sis in not the party to the contract.

IMO it would be very bad PR for the company to risk the bad publicity of a court case over 10K spent by an 8 yr old. So unless the co have form for bilking its target market minors , its cheaper to pay back the money.

Phileas Frog

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

The balance of probability that a sane adult would give a card number and PIN to an 8 year old child being negligible, presumably.

You don't need a PIN to purchase online, you just need access to the card

Shelflife

The adult would have had to set up the card details on the account and then left it open for online ingame purchases.

The child then used this open facility to run up a big bill.

As far as the bank are concerned the customer got what they paid for so the chargeback option isn’t available.

If you claim the card was stolen as suggested above then logically the authorities would have to be involved and the child would be the chief suspect, is that a can of worms worth opening?

Silly stuff on the part of the adult, you’d have to be playing an awful lot to rack up such a bill, and how do you not notice €10k missing from your account?

I would suggest the only option is to throw yourself at the mercy of the game operators and see if they will give you some sort of a refund.

dazed+confused

Glass fused light wrote:

On a side note ask the bank about opening up an account for the child with NO overdraft facility. Process any pocket money, gifted money and bills (phone games etc through this). Sis gets cash and transfers same amount from her account or lodge cash directly. Debit cards stays with sis but used for purchases by child so he gets to see money in and bills being paid out of his money.

I somehow think it'll be a while before this fella gets any more pocket money!

Del2005

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I just can't see how the parent is vicariously liable given the child made the transaction and contracts with children are voidable. In the above scenario you give I'm sure some sort of agency situation comes into play.

The parent put their card details onto the kids account and didn't bother to enable the protections available, you have to choose what protection level you want when you add a card. The kid played the game but the adult, who added their card to the account, bought the items.

Jupiter Mulligan

Phileas Frog wrote: »

You don't need a PIN to purchase online, you just need access to the card

True. It's the three-digit security code I was thinking of, it never struck me that any sane adult would give her card to her 8 year old.

splinter65

Literally, play silly games? Win silly prizes.

Captcha

Expensive pixels

Up Donegal

Rmulvany wrote: »

Definitely speak to your bank, them telling you not to would be a red flag for me.

My initial reaction when I read that the O.P’s sister was told not to contact her bank, was “there’s something not right here – why don’t they want her to contact the bank?”

Good luck anyway with getting the charges cancelled.

kunst nugget

Two-step authentication is a must if you have a phone or console where you have credit/debit card details and children have access to them. This is something that comes up repeatedly with the likes Fifa or any game with in app purchasing where parents haven't be knowledgeable enough to stop their children automatically buying online for their games.

It's not going to help with the situation the sister is already facing but it will help going forward. The pessimist in me reckons she's not going to see a positive outcome to the money already spent on the game.

https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/1626831?hl=en

runawaybishop

Up Donegal wrote: »

My initial reaction when I read that the O.P’s sister was told not to contact her bank, was “there’s something not right here – why don’t they want her to contact the bank?”

Good luck anyway with getting the charges cancelled.

Because it is pointless, the bank cannot assist as the purchases were authenticated. The only one that can provide the refund is Roblox

Glass fused light

Shelflife wrote: »

The adult would have had to set up the card details on the account and then left it open for online ingame purchases.

The son would only have had card number and seen the pin being used. Its not unknown for children to do this.

However this is not what happened here.

The question here is how clear was it to the cardholder that the card was going to be used for additional purchases.

If the cardholder only approved the subscription payment and as the child of 8 is unlikely to have a line of credit in his own name the Company's choice of how the secondry purchases were approved becomes relevant.

No controls on notifying the cardholder before the 10K was spent by an 8yr old is a choice and a lack of oversight on the financial elements of the game. This is a choice to gain financial enrichment off a party not subject to the contract.

Shelflife wrote: »

The child then used this open facility to run up a big bill.

As far as the bank are concerned the customer got what they paid for so the chargeback option isn’t available.

Agreed a charge back on that basis would not be an option.
But Sis needs to assess the security of the accounts on the basis that the son has access and is living in the house.

Shelflife wrote: »

If you claim the card was stolen as suggested above then logically the authorities would have to be involved and the child would be the chief suspect, is that a can of worms worth opening?

The bank issues a new card number for lost or stolen cards rather than reissue the same numberes card. So any further automated payments are stopped. If the card no. remains active more transations can occur.


The criminal age of responsibility is now 12 yr. At 8, in the Sis financial position, I would expect that a child had been taught the value of money by buying sweets and treats for themselves.

The son did it, theft happens in homes across Ireland. If the son knew that the purchases cost real life money he has stolen from his mother.  For 10k I would involve the Community Garda to teach the son how serious his action was.

Shelflife wrote: »

Silly stuff on the part of the adult, you’d have to be playing an awful lot to rack up such a bill, and how do you not notice €10k missing from your account?

If only from a safety point of view the sister should have been involved setting up the game and checking what was going on and who the son was in contact with.

Automated payments only work if the account holder is active in managing their account.
Its now " in God we trust the rest dont get access to my bank account "

Shelflife wrote: »

I would suggest the only option is to throw yourself at the mercy of the game operators and see if they will give you some sort of a refund.

Would you feel the same if the son had gotten access to a betting site? At least with the betting there is a small chance in wining some money back and the kid gets to learn some maths to work out the odds.

Glass fused light

Del2005 wrote: »

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I just can't see how the parent is vicariously liable given the child made the transaction and contracts with children are voidable. In the above scenario you give I'm sure some sort of agency situation comes into play.

The parent put their card details onto the kids account and didn't bother to enable the protections available, you have to choose what protection level you want when you add a card. The kid played the game but the adult, who added their card to the account, bought the items.

Its not as simple as that for the bank. People have been found guilty of using a card/bank account in a way other than was agreed. Carers of OAP, employees etc. In families there is normaly an unwillingness to turn it into a criminal case. If the Sis wants to make it a criminal matter AML rules come into play. In that case the both bank become involved. The recipient bank should at least freeze 10k of the money in the account untill the matter is resolved. Plus be looking if they have a liability in allowing any other withdrawals too.

somuj

There maybe some hope for you


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48908766

Not legal advice but I have seen companies cave to pressure when things like this go viral.

the_syco

seamus1980 wrote: »

they also said not to contact her bank

When someone ever says this, you contact the bank. They may be trying to stall so that your sister runs out of time of claiming this back.

Contact your bank and ask what's the time limit on chargebacks.

Also, remember to point out that the child is 8. This can have bearing on some cases.

runawaybishop

the_syco wrote: »

When someone ever says this, you contact the bank. They may be trying to stall so that your sister runs out of time of claiming this back.

Contact your bank and ask what's the time limit on chargebacks.

Also, remember to point out that the child is 8. This can have bearing on some cases.

The bank will not do a chargeback as the purchase was legitimate and authenticated.

I used to manage about 20k worth of refunds monthly when I managed Xbox testing, only the company can authorise a refund of this magnitude.

kunst nugget

somuj wrote: »

There maybe some hope for you


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48908766

That was a goodwill gesture on behalf of Nintendo, not EA Sports, and the amount is a fraction of the €10,000 spent by the sister's child. I don't think the two are comparable.