Random EV thoughts.....

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119994953#Comment_119994953

25% difference in fuel efficiency to a Golf though, so that's easy enough to differentiate.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119996558#Comment_119996558

Can you get a day night rate now on a smart meter ?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997168#Comment_119997168

Taxing based on rated fuel efficiency isn't taxation based on body type. Also your number is still off based on the product guides from VW.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997222#Comment_119997222

No, at least not in the sense of the rates you'll get on D/N meters

Up until recently ESBN couldn't implement the 30 mins readings on smart meters , so they could only have 24 hour rates

Now the electricity suppliers have more flexibility to have time of use rates, which is good in theory except all the rates went up by about 30-50%

To give an example, Energia have a Smart EV plan which gives a 12.64c night rate, but only for 4 hours. The rest of the "night rate" is 28.17c which is more than double the D/N meter night rate

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997267#Comment_119997267

Well as you said the companies just make up the names for the body types, the lifted cars all have one thing in common, inefficiency compared to the non lifted verison. So taxation based on efficiency does indirectly penalize lifted cars.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997267#Comment_119997267

Yeah and the problem with taxing consumption in EV world is that some of the most expensive EVs have very low WLTP consumption.

If motor tax effectively targeted at more expensive cars then this won't accomplish the goals of the tax

Ultimately, taxes like motor tax exist for two reasons

The first is obviously to provide a source of revenue to the government. The official explanation is that motor tax pays for road maintenance but this hasn't been the case for decades, all tax revenue goes into a central fund

The second reason is to nudge consumers to buy cars that accomplish the governments political goals. This was the motivation behind switching to CO2 emissions as a basis for taxation to encourage the uptake for low emmision vehicles (worked out great didn't it, that daily dose of diesel fumes reminds me how wonderful asthma attacks are)

Same for putting EVs on a lower tax band, to nudge the population towards buying them

So, what are the political goals of the current government?

Well there definitely seems to be a desire to roll back EV incentives slowly, so the flat €120 tax rate is going to go at some point

If you listen to the Greens, they'd prefer everyone to use public transport and cycle and will probably want to nudge people towards owning smaller cars or not owning a car

FF and FG seem to lean more towards just swapping all the existing cars out for EVs and will probably go after the usual approach to trying to tax higher value cars to generate more revenue

So that's why I think it'll be some function of size or weight. It's hardly a universal rule but generally bigger car = more luxury

I mean if you don't believe me just look at the jeeps that BMW, Audi and Mercedes produce. They seem to design them to be bigger than the equivalent cars from other manufacturers

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997710#Comment_119997710

How much of a taxation difference do you think is needed to change someones behaviour and how are you going to apologise to the family with a people carrier instead of 2 cars who now have to may exorbitant amounts of tax because you wanted to price someone out of a T-Roc into a Golf?

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997832#Comment_119997832

As I said previously it's better to lump the tax onto new cars rather than penalize less well off people that in 8years will only have a choice of jacked up SUV/Crossover types to buy because that's what richer people are choosing to buy new today. The goal is to change the buying decisions today, once someone chooses a Troc instead of an ID3 you've locked in a lifetime of emissions that you could have avoided by making the Troc 10k (or whatever works ) more expensive than the ID3 today.

If they choose to pay the exorbitant price you have some additional tax revenue to build metro, buy some electric buses, incentivise taxis to switch etc...

unkel

Indeed @MightyMunster, just lump a 4 percent extra tax on new EVs over about €25k and abolish motor tax. On the average value new EV costing €50k, this is about €2k, which represents roughly 10 years of motor tax for many current cars (EV or ICE)

This also complies with the most important principle of taxation - ease of collection. No motortax office necessary any more, no nasty checks of people's compliance with self-reported km figures. Just be done with it with zero admin cost.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997909#Comment_119997909

Why are you jumping back to the ID.3 vs T-Roc, if your comparing the two similarly sized vehicles with similar drivetrain (the T-Roc and Golf in my example) to account for the "SUV tax" how much do you think is needed to encourage your preferred choice?

MightyMunster

Carbon price is around around half the recommended amount so double VRT in all cars above 0 emissions. That should slow sales of less efficient cars

Kramer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998223#Comment_119998223

Where are these magic "0 emissions" cars though? Sure, zero tailpipe emissions but what about the materials to manufacture them & the electricity to charge them? That's got to be accounted for too I think?

No, nothing short of an outright ban is warranted here for anything that is an SUV, purports to be an SUV or resembles an SUV.

That'll soften their cough 😁.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998335#Comment_119998335

What would you ban, which dimension of the T-Roc over the ID.3 makes it a bannable vehicle?

Kramer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998351#Comment_119998351

Dimensions are immaterial here. It's perception. SUVs are invariably perceived to be bad so I'd specifically target them.

Criteria would be:

anything that is an SUV, purports to be an SUV or resembles an SUV

Just like they do for firearms. Assault rifles are banned, as are firearms that purport to be assault rifles or resemble assault rifles. It's actually a doctrine in Irish & international legislation.

An SUV might be efficient, built from largely recyclable materials & driven very little, possibly in a high density, urban area. It's still an SUV though.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998365#Comment_119998365

That's really easy then, you implement your new taxation system then the next day I sell the same car as a family hatch. Congratulations you've achieved your goal of removing all SUVs from Irish roads.

Kramer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998390#Comment_119998390

But you agree in principle that we should really, really, penalise hard, those who chose to drive "SUV" type vehicles. I mean big, opulent, inefficient, expensive & wholly unnecessary cars?

That seems to be the prevailing ideology?

Steelmanning here. I'm even questioning my thinking here to be honest.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998397#Comment_119998397

No because I don't think whether a vehicle is labelled an SUV by a marketing department is important when it comes to taxation. I don't see the point of a taxation system that penalises a Dacia Duster (SUV) over a Bentley Continental (Luxury Saloon). Similarly I don't believe that arbitrary vehicle segments (A, B, C etc) are useful whilst their definition largely comes from positioning within a manufacturers range rather than a particular physical property.

Instead we should be basing taxation off engineered properties such as power usage per km, distance travelled, and initial purchase price. We cover the initial purchase price using the VRT system. I'd apply mileage bands based on a standardised efficiency rating such as WLTP, and then assess road usage either via the NCT system or a future tech solution. The road usage element should seek to substitute for the current level of taxation applied on fuel following the principal of polluter pays.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998410#Comment_119998410

I see your point regarding usage, but I don't see how it's practical without some big brother style surveillance system, which the government probably doesn't have the ability or interest to develop

I mean you could probably accomplish the same thing in principle by making every motorway and N road a toll road and just have a flat charge for road tax

zg3409

As mentioned taxes drive decisions and may impact buying choices and usage choices.

For example we priced the train Dublin to Galway for a group. Instead we decided to bring ICE as it was cheaper and easier if not green.

At time of purchase we need ways for people to opt for more efficient/smaller cars. Taxing engine size resulted in small engines with turbos. Lots of 1299 engines as 1300 was higher bracket.

Options, weight, motor power, battery, wltp range, length, room inside, cost as in vat or vrt based on % of cost.

After purchase annual fixed amount such as motor tax linked to car but not usage.

Then usage based, mileage submitted each year at tax time, submitted by car, submitted by nct, checked at Garda checkpoint etc.

City usage versus urban usage as in inside M50 would be one rare, Donegal another rate, newer cars have gps logging and older cars could be retrofitted with black box or pay a penalty or be banned from cities by reg.

Tolls, price of tolls could be linked to car efficiency, there is already plans for multiple tolls on M50 based on number of junctions you travel. In the UK many cities have a variable toll to enter the city centre, such a London etc.

All the above is politically sensitive. Many people are locked into long commutes, fixed home with mortgage, stuck in a job.

Personally I moved home closer to work to avoid commuting, but it's not an option for most.

The right taxes can drive a change in behaviour. Taxing work parking spaces per day used may drive employers and employees wanting to work from home and this could be a really big impact and support green parties hopes. It's politically sensitive and these days planning rules intend not having enough work parking spaces for all the staff, so creating a shortage of spaces through planning. Similar is done with new apartments, only one or less spaces per apartment. I don't agree with all this, but I can crawl on my hands and knees to work. I haved about 18,000 euro over 4 years of commuting on fuel and tolls. Depreciation on the car is about 2000 per year.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119993802#Comment_119993802

What a dopey comment, is that a serious suggestion, GoogleMaps put that as 2.5hrs round trip a day, apart from the fact taking my life into account on those roads and blind spots and in all types of weather. Get real.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998351#Comment_119998351

The big smoky exhaust on the back

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999695#Comment_119999695

Is that the petrol exhaust ok and the literal zero emissions diesel with dpf and adlue not ok? Or are all fossils the same but EV SUVs are fine? Or do you subscribe to (possibly the worst argument I've ever seen made on boards) a tax on suv.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999695#Comment_119999695

That doesn't achieve your stated goal of discouraging SUVs.

Buddy Bubs

This is like the thread going on about banning pitbulls.

Dont stress it lads, you won't be involved in the decision whatever it is.

Motor tax will stay low for everything with low tailpipe emissions in my opinion, ICE and EV and everything in between.

With the price of new vehicles now, VRT and VAT is where you are being hit and hit hard.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999772#Comment_119999772

This is where I agree. VRT is already a large stick on new cars, and VAT too is higher especially on EVs compared to other countries.

slave1

It's an internet forum, that's what we do, or to give it it's original name a discussion board, we discuss, debate, argue!

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999745#Comment_119999745

Gets rid of ice SUVs though, which is the vast majority at the moment

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999792#Comment_119999792

If your primary concern is to discourage SUVs then you would need to seriously nip the EV SUV in the bud., ID4 being the best selling EV in Ireland. Reducing the EV grant threshold might be a starting point.

kanuseeme

Nearly 60% of registrations this year are SUV, I would say that manufacturers and also I am sure these buyers don't care about some silly hatred of a slightly higher, slightly less streamlined car.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999772#Comment_119999772

Ha, don't you know that internet discussions are where all the world's problems are debated and solved 😂