Random EV thoughts.....

kanuseeme

Got my car from japan 9th of june, followed it from japan, it stopped in Singapore, Cyprus , Malta , Spain and finally Belgium, there it got offloaded and put on another ship to Dublin,

Picked it up with half tank of petrol and some trim in the back seat, drove it home and started putting the trim back , my guess was the 12 v was disconnected and the main traction battery also, as the cover was not replaced.

My guess is, for short trips they do nothing, for the longer trips they have more time to open and disconnect things, some ports the stay was very short, less than a day, the ship was a few days in Belgium then onto Hamburg and Sweden, same ship is now off Wollongong https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:313143/zoom:10

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:313143/zoom:10 its amazing the number of ships at sea, you can see the shipping lanes if you zoom in a little, each colour is a different type of vessel.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903439#Comment_120903439

I get what you're saying but "takes too long" isn't an excuse for skipping on safety. If the vehicles can't be made safe before departure then the ship needs to be equipped to handle any emergencies en route

This isn't an isolated incident, there was another fire onboard a car carrier in the Atlantic a few years ago

And to be frank, EV fires are rare but they're incredibly intense and difficult to put out. If they can't handle a bunch of petrol cars then how's it going to go when a shop full of EVs goes up in flames?

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120903532#Comment_120903532

You abandon ship as was the case here.

Once a fire has taken hold there is notyvh you can do. Smoke obscures visibility and even if crew are trained and have all the gear and the fire is detected quickly it can easily spread. They can't our out car fires easily in multi storey car parks, so on a ship things are far more difficult with a small crew like this ship. Try to tackle it, give up and call for help.

Old diesel

EVs have been transported on ships from Teslas departure ports and also out of Korea and China for several years now.

Is it known what the safety record is like on those other routes (ie not leaving Germany).

If there hasn't been a major incident like Felicity Ace or this weeks incident with Tesla deliveries or Korea/China.

Is there lessons to be learnt from that or is it just pure luck.

Also might we eventually figure a link between particular models of car and particular incidents.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904788#Comment_120904788

Imagine if this fire turns out to be another Zafira, they've been recalled 3 times for fire risk

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904865#Comment_120904865

I was just thinking that myself, that car must have the highest kill/death ratio of any car ever made

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904865#Comment_120904865

I’m no maritime expert but it’s unlikely that any Zafiras had their engines running and PTC fans on while onboard the ship.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906217#Comment_120906217

That's the thing: The zafira that burnt the Cork shopping centre was not running either. The PTC heater on them have a permanent live from the battery probably due to cost cutting. High current DC relays are expensive.

unkel

Looks like there were 500 EVs on board and also hundreds of Mercedes cars. I think that supports my speculation that this is a shipment of end of life bangers to Africa. God knows how many safety shortcuts would have been taken on a shipment like that. I hope time will tell.

liamog

There were 3,783 vehicles on board, including 498 battery electric vehicles, a Tokyo-based spokesperson for K Line (Kawasaki Kisen Kaisha), which had chartered the vessel, said.

He declined to say anything about the car brands, including whether or not it included any cars from Japanese manufacturers.

Same report indicates they were new cars

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/0728/1397001-dutch-cargo-ship-fire/

Boat was headed to Singapore and supposedly contained cars from Mercedes, BMW and construction equipment

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907619#Comment_120907619

Seems an incorrect translation from the orignal Dutch press release from ANP that doesn't mention they were new cars. Not saying they aren't though.

Can't find the original press release from the Japanese charter company K Line in a two minute google, maybe someone else can? That could shed some light. I did see mention that there were several hundred Mercedes and also a large number of BMW and MINI. Which in fairness would point to brand new cars alright.

liamog

There's this from the NL Times

https://nltimes.nl/2023/07/28/nearly-500-electric-cars-board-freighter-burning-near-terschelling

Both BMW and Mercedes use Bremerhaven to ship cars. VW's go through Emden.

Port Said is the entry point the Suez canal, so I wouldn't take that as dumping point for old cars.

MartyMcFly1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120798924#Comment_120798924

All powered mainly by fossil fuels.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907408#Comment_120907408

My recollection of that incident is that the driver saw smoke and drove into the centre with it that way and abandoned it! 🤦‍♂️

So, if that is true, it was actually running when it happened.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907859#Comment_120907859

I remember the same, car was smoking before driver drove it into car park. Oops.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907870#Comment_120907870

Cool. I remember now that it was the fan motor resistor pack and not a ptc on the Zafira. And it was pretty poor form from the driver to abandon it at the multistorey if it was already smoking when driven in.

Old diesel

Interesting read......

If shipping companies are "unprepared"

What or who is to blame.....

Should shippers have developed more understanding of how EV fires should be put out????.

Is it vehicle makers not providing support in terms of vehicle knowledge?????

Is it EV tech coming to market too fast for people who need to know the tech from a shipping point of view to keep up????.

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/ev-technology-could-be-risk-under-prepared-maritime-shippers

JohnC.

If the shipping industry are still playing catchup at this point, they only have themselves to blame. EVs have been shipped for, what, about 15 years? They'd want to pull their finger out.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909514#Comment_120909514

Sure they've been like that for years, crews trained to the absolute bare minimum, safety equipment outdated or broken and ships registered in countries with lax safety laws

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909466#Comment_120909466

From what I can see manufacturers have worked with fire departments in the past, so I can't see why they'd deny the shipping industry any chance for engagement or training

I would imagine it's a basic tenant for any maritime insurance policy that if you're carrying cargo then you've taken the required precautions to handle it safely

While I agree with the sentiment that it's probably better to abandon ship, it seems to be an expectation that the crew is capable of fighting a fire and preventing it from spreading

It makes sense, a burning ship isn't just a danger to itself and it's crew, it poses a navigation risk to other ships and possibly even the shore. If a ship sinks in a busy shipping lane then it could partly block traffic and restrict the number of ships in that area.

I suspect then that the insurance companies are going to turn around and demand that car carriers have better fire suppression systems or carry fewer EVs or both in future

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909735#Comment_120909735

If I'm understanding some of the articles I've read this week.

Part of the issue seems to be that the vessels and firefighting equipment on board are designed with ICE cars in mind.

This will probably hurt EV perception in at least the short term as Joe Public won't necessarily realise that the risk to them of owning EV.

Is much lower then what they may think from seeing an incident like this....

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909919#Comment_120909919

Honestly I'm not even 100% convinced they can tackle an ICE fire

But taking the EV case, it's true that EV fires are rare but unfortunately those EVs that use cobalt based batteries are very difficult to extinguish and burn intensely for days

Your typical foam won't put it out because the battery contains an oxidiser, the only real solution at the moment seems to be immersion in water and let the fire eventually run out of fuel

So as I said before, regardless of whether the EV causes the fire, it'll certainly contribute to it once it's caught in the blaze

From what I understand of the design of those car transporters, they have a semi open deck design. As in the sides aren't enclosed and allow water to drain.

I suppose they could use high capacity pumps to essentially flood the hold of any cars where a fire breaks out and it would hopefully drain out fast enough that the boat wouldn't sink and the fire wouldn't spread

unkel

All EVs really should have a battery that can't go on fire (as in LiFePO4 or NaFePO4). A lot of newer EVs already do like most EVs from Chinese brands like Volvo, MG, Lotus, Saab, BYD, etc. and even the cheaper Tesla cars.

From a commercial point of view, most of them will very soon. A legislative nudge is all it takes for all EVs to be safe, I suppose.

mfceiling

https://maritime-executive.com/article/china-launches-first-700-teu-electric-containership-for-yangtze-service

That's a first.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914973#Comment_120914973

Looks like battery swaps found another market, saw a similar solution discussed for river shipping in the Rhine and Danube

Seems like a smart solution, although it is worth saying these ships are a fraction of the size of the massive container ships you'd see blocking the Suez canal and the like

Still, it removes yet another low hanging fruit of things that can easily be electrified while we're figuring out the trickier stuff

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.electrive.com/2023/07/28/rose-tinted-glasses-on-tesla-range/

So apparently Tesla's underreport their available range

In other news, rain is wet, donuts are bad for you and it turns out Euro 6d isn't as clean as advertised 😏

Part of me is struggling to understand why this is newsworthy, pretty much every other manufacturer does the same thing and it's well know that every car loses some range is colder weather

Reading into it, it seems that the argument against Tesla is the extent of the range loss between reported versus actual range, and rather than taking a more conservative estimate the cars always report the most optimistic scenario at the start of a journey and then "corrects" later on

There's also an implication that Tesla are stonewalling customers with range complaints by doing stuff like not answering the phone and cancelling service appointments

I'd definitely agree that there's no need for service centre staff to waste their time on cars that don't need fixing, but I would say if it's true then Tesla really need to engage with customers more

Personally I think anyone who trusts the GOM with absolute certainty is a fool, particularly when there's a big change in driving habits or weather or when the car is new

But, I can also understand when a car dramatically overstates it's range it can be very frustrating for owners. My own experience is that after a while the GOM is fairly accurate but it's pretty fictional when you set off at the start of a journey

Maybe we should just make the GOM less prominent and instead just show the remaining battery and consumption data and let the driver figure it out

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120917315#Comment_120917315

Been discussed recently in Tesla Talk (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904384/#Comment_120904384)

cannco253

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electric-bus/dublin-bus-electric-buses-testing-started/

some more detail I didn't read about before

Dublin Bus is currently undertaking an extensive training and piloting programme with drivers from the Phibsboro and Summerhill depots. There is a selection of routes being used to test the range of the electric fleet and provide valuable information that will feed into operational plans for the rollout, including routes C1, C2, 9, 15a, 15b, 122, and 123. A total of 760 drivers will be trained up in the coming months.

wassie

Interesting to see how they perform in winter when they will have heating demands on them also.

DaveyDave

Ah the C2. When the C spine was rolled out they removed the 25 and made people get an L bus down to Lucan Village to get the C3/4 which are always packed from Leixlip (the C3 often never arriving in the morning). It took a year for the C2 to come up to the new road Adamstown Boulevard as it wasn't open for a long time. Now months later, the C2 still isn't going down it's proposed route through Shackleton estate as apparently the roads from Shackleton down to Adamstown train station are too narrow.

The bus drivers also often don't know where they're going and not stopping at marked bus stops.

I'm sure the EV rollout will be smooth as butter...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919993#Comment_120919993

If we're lucky the heating will be on low to maximize range, nothing worse than being on a hot, stuffy bus as people never open the windows and there's no apparent AC. But hey, we have USB plugs that won't work and crappy WiFi now!

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919993#Comment_120919993

130 people in the bus will provide plenty of heating, it's whether they have AC for summertime is my worry

insullation

I'm in the market for a EV but I see lots of ads on Donedeal where the seller have mentioned that the battery has been replaced (I assume under warranty). But this has put me off as are the replaced battery likely need replacing also and will most likely be outside of kms guarantee thus costing me 1000's to replace. Should I be concerned buying a car that has had its battery replaced?

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922180#Comment_120922180

I'm in the market for a EV but I see lots of ads on Donedeal where the seller have mentioned that the battery has been replaced

What make are you looking at where you see “lots” with replacement?

Its a rare occurrence except in the case of a manufacturing defect and covered by recall under warranty.

All Kona’s had battery replacements I believe and nearly all early Model S.

Other than those two it would be rare for a battery to be replaced under normal circumstances and not something you should be unduly worried about as the batteries are usually under 8yr warranty anyway.

insullation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922237#Comment_120922237

Ah okay thanks. That's a relief to hear.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922237#Comment_120922237

A few ID cars had cells replaced as well

I would personally take a full battery replacement as a potential plus, you're effectively getting a brand new battery on a car that's a few years old

the_amazing_raisin

Another article about new electric buses for Dublin Bus

https://www.electrive.com/2023/07/28/electric-buses-arrive-in-dublin-driver-training-begins/

Gotta say, Eamonn Ryan is really looking the part of an annoyed bus passenger who's trying to ignore the guys trying to start a conversation across the aisle. He just needs a set of airpods to top it off 😂

silver_sky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922180#Comment_120922180

There was a global recall for certain Hyundai Kona EVs where the battery was replaced due to a manufacturing issue. Not due to wear and it was covered fully by Hyundai. If you got one of these where it was replaced then should be no issues.

coolbeans

Can anyone recommend an OBD device for checking battery health on a Kona. I haven't a clue about them.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120932148#Comment_120932148

I have this one on my 2019 Kona. The ON/OFF button allows me to keep it in the port permanently without the risk of draining the battery.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120932148#Comment_120932148

Are you iphone or Android?

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120932351#Comment_120932351

.and what App do you use to show Kona battery stats please?

coolbeans

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120932782#Comment_120932782

Android.

the_amazing_raisin

There's some interesting analysis of Toyota's EV "strategy" here

https://www.electrive.com/2023/08/02/debunking-toyota-the-bev-strategy-of-the-worlds-largest-car-manufacturer/

Long story short, there's a lot of marketing but very little on the details

For example Toyota claim to be developing a 1,000km EV, but don't make clear exactly how to achieve that range. Speed limits in Japan are limited to 100km/h so the cars gain efficiency there and WLTP ranges are longer

They also mentioned "cruising range" which doesn't correspond to any range test cycle. So if you got 12kWh/100km driving at 100km/h and a 120kWh battery then you've 1,000km range.... except you don't

Other aspects of their strategy also got rubbished for not having any details, like the 10 mins recharge time. It's generally accepted that a 10-80% charge is only capable in 10 mins using fully solid state batteries, but it doesn't seem likely Toyota will have those deployed at scale by 2027

So using semi solid batteries you're looking at more like 20 mins which is already in the realm of some cars today

I think the closing line really hit home, Toyota doesn't need to be Tesla, they don't need exciting high tech cars but need to focus on making reliable, affordable and efficient EVs. So far with the bz4x they've largely failed to do that, hopefully they pull it out of the fire before they go bust

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933394#Comment_120933394

While I really dislike Toyota for their self charging marketing and awful pace of BEV development, they are a long way from going bust imo. Keep in mind that outside of world's richest countries there are a whole lot less fortunate nations/continents with relatively poor infrastructure and which the majority of the population can't afford a BEV such as South America, South East Asia, Africa, parts of middle East. Toyota is still very popular in wealthy nations but that will slowly change over the coming couple decades.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933570#Comment_120933570

Yes absolutely true, however they have effectively been kicked out of one of their biggest markets (China) due to not having any competing EVs to sell

So while I agree they won't go bust, their time as the world's largest car company could be coming to an end

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933394#Comment_120933394

I wouldnt be so sure on needing solid state batteries to get 10 mins 10-80%. The Taycan is already at 17-18 minutes for that in ideal conditions, if it could maintain the 270kW for longer or have a higher initial peak (get some cobalt back in batteries!) I think it would be mathematically possible at least without solid state. If you put the Ioniq28 C rate on some larger packs like the taycan, I'd say it gets close to 10 minutes!

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933661#Comment_120933661

Yeah true enough and they did mention in the article that there were batteries available now which could handle that, although that's as much down to the enormous cooling system than cell chemistry

I think the main issue was with the vagueness of the 10 mins claim. You can charge any EV in 10 mins technically, just plug it in for the allotted time and then unplug it. The big difference is in how much you got 😁

So are Toyota doing a typical 10-80% charge in 10 mins like most other manufacturers, or again is it more wonder maths like just applying the max charging speed to 60% of the pack size and ignoring the fact that's not how batteries work

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120932807#Comment_120932807

I use Evnotify when I charge the car. I have the app open on an old phone in the car and I can see the charging speed and other things on my personal phone. You need some form of data connection on the old phone. I also connected to ABRP and have it on android auto so one could plan routes better. with live battery values. My 2019 Kona is the one without GPS so in this way I made it a bit "smarter".

Another app, Car scanner is the same Bjorn uses it to have some more info about the car.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933753#Comment_120933753

I'd put nothing past toyota at this point, true!

Could be as simple as the claims made by idiotic journalists like Dim Tim in the times or that annoying one whos name begins with G but i can't remember it now. "These chargers charge at 350kW and you have a 50kWh battery so it will be done in 7 minutes."

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933892#Comment_120933892

Theres another called torqueflight or something, usually they are only on android. Bjorn uses the best apps I find, so if he's using it it's probably the best one for that situation