Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

FrancieBrady

sabat wrote: »

It will be extremely interesting to see what happens in all of these constituencies when the people realise that not only is Brexit not the answer to ingrained intergenerational deprivation, but that things will get even worse for them under the Tories. The list is almost like a roll-call of post-industrial decline in Northern England:

https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/12/2019-general-election-conservative-seats-gained-and-lost.html

It's very difficult for the average Irish person to comprehend the mindset of the most disadvantaged voting for Johnson, JRM et al, given that we don't suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome caused by the British class system.

It will simply be a landslide the other way. Like FG/FF swapping power here, the usual power swap will happen in the UK again...if it survives.

pjohnson

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

London will continue to be the global capital of offshoring, and finance, and EU focussed industries like automanufaturers and aerospace will quietly withdraw to mainland Europe. That means the middle and working classes will suffer while the Tories continue to represent their deep-pocketed patrons and slash public services and welfare.

Some were willing to give the voters the benefit of the doubt they didnt know what they were voting on. Now they've happily voted all in on BoJo and Brexit the middle class and workers seem very happy to accept this. Hard to feel any sympathy.

Eric Cartman

sabat wrote: »

It will be extremely interesting to see what happens in all of these constituencies when the people realise that not only is Brexit not the answer to ingrained intergenerational deprivation, but that things will get even worse for them under the Tories. The list is almost like a roll-call of post-industrial decline in Northern England:

https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/12/2019-general-election-conservative-seats-gained-and-lost.html

It's very difficult for the average Irish person to comprehend the mindset of the most disadvantaged voting for Johnson, JRM et al, given that we don't suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome caused by the British class system.

Might it be that the tories promise jobs when labour have been promising them handouts and that theres still some desire to work among the working class...

Snickers Man

biko wrote: »

UK - people gets to vote on EU
People - votes for Brexit
Left - we need another vote
Election - Tory wins by landslide
Left - toys everywhere

I think if you want a good grounding in what is likely to emerge, you could do worse than sit through the following. It is a lecture given only last week by Prof David Starkey, long time holder of the title "Rudest Man in Britain" at an event organised by a devoutly Brexit-supporting think tank (sic) the New Culture Forum.

As a historian he draws parallels between 19th century Britain, Disraeli, and the Brexit controversy. He describes Disraelis harnessing of an alliance between very rich and the very poor, based on shared patriotism, against the Liberal "middle" as being uncannily similar to what is going on today in Britian. I think he's right.

I also think he's among the most obnoxious little cnuts I've ever heard, I hate his fondness for the nostalgia of Empire, I fear the consequences for us and the world of a newly aggressive Britain, needing to buy off the allegiance of its poorest with the promise of belonging to a country made "great" again, his denigration of much of what is decent about contemporary Britain, and his flawed pride in things he has nothing to be proud about.

As one example, he mentions the events in fishmonger's Hall when a group of people overpowered a jihadist who had killed some people with a knife as being "a wonderful example of British biffiness" In fact the guy who wielded the Nawharl tusk was Polish, but that's an aside.

Interestingly, not once does he mention the terms "left" and "right" in their political context. We're talking about other things entirely. This is what we're going to have to deal with, people. The Brits as the bad guys again.

Don't throw the toys out of the pram; gird up the loins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLXRvejIeg

KWAG2019

The utter rout of Remain and The People’s Vote is a separate story in the gutting of Labour. I can’t see any coherent opposition to the Tories for 8-10 years. It will take Brexit to be a relative but distinct failure for that to emerge. Sky pointing out the vulnerability of more northern Labour seats and that southern professionals won’t be voting Labour for too long if it’s a wasted vote. Johnson’s buffoonery has carried the day, the issue and probably the decade.

At least our own GE is now definitely on.

James Brown

I saw a couple of working class men, likely retired, being interviewed about Brexit. They were tip your cap merchants. "We need Mr. Trump to come over here and get it done" or along those lines. This was back when Teresa May was PM. There's certainly a large contingent who know their place.

Corbyn dithered on Brexit IMO. People were browned off.

I feel sad for the Brits. Johnson and pals will make an absolute fortune.

Snickers Man

Feisar wrote: »

Here, will I be able to buy cheap booze in the airport if I'm flying to the UK after Brexit?

Not as much as you could buy if you take the ferry to France and load up the people carrier with a year's supply on the way back. As long as you promise it's only for your own consumption.

Big picture, people.

sabat

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Might it be that the tories promise jobs when labour have been promising them handouts and that theres still some desire to work among the working class...

Have you ever been to any of these places? They're like Darndale or Jobstown in the mid-80s with populations of over 100,000 and worse drug problems and fewer job opportunities.

Eric Cartman

sabat wrote: »

Have you ever been to any of these places? They're like Darndale or Jobstown in the mid-80s with populations of over 100,000 and worse drug problems and fewer job opportunities.

ok, and how would any political party improve their lot , like genuinely if you had a 10 year program to clean Sheffield up and get most people back to work how would you achieve that meaningfully and what political ethos would it fall under

*caveat , you have to fall under current uk spending structures , no just throwing billions of pounds at them.

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ok, and how would any political party improve their lot , like genuinely if you had a 10 year program to clean Sheffield up and get most people back to work how would you achieve that meaningfully and what political ethos would it fall under

*caveat , you have to fall under current uk spending structures , no just throwing billions of pounds at them.

And do it outside the EU. A landslide back to Labour is inevitable at some point.

KWAG2019

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And do it outside the EU. A landslide back to Labour is inevitable at some point.

To the opposition, yes. I don’t think the current Labour Party will be that opposition.

FrancieBrady

KWAG2019 wrote: »

To the opposition, yes. I don’t think the current Labour Party will be that opposition.

They'll dust themselves down, adjust and come back. This has all happened before in living memory.
No need to be sensationalist about it.

Eric Cartman

KWAG2019 wrote: »

To the opposition, yes. I don’t think the current Labour Party will be that opposition.

not in their current structure, itll require corbyn gone and anyone from his inner circle to dissapear or denounce him.

KWAG2019

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They'll dust themselves down, adjust and come back. This has all happened before in living memory.
No need to be sensationalist about it.

1935. They came back after being part of a national govt during a World War and inventing the NHS in 1945. Sensationalist. Ok.

cryptocurrency

sabat wrote: »

It will be extremely interesting to see what happens in all of these constituencies when the people realise that not only is Brexit not the answer to ingrained intergenerational deprivation, but that things will get even worse for them under the Tories. The list is almost like a roll-call of post-industrial decline in Northern England:

https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2019/12/2019-general-election-conservative-seats-gained-and-lost.html

It's very difficult for the average Irish person to comprehend the mindset of the most disadvantaged voting for Johnson, JRM et al, given that we don't suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome caused by the British class system.

UK is no different to here. Same useless types who like labour like SF, PBP, Solidarity etc.. here
Self entiltled and lazy

Tony EH

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

'Get Brexit done', BoJo must have said it 10 times in every interview. Every Tory knew the chant - it's the stuff of football stands. A simple message for people who were suffering from Brexit fatigue.

"because of the stupidity of the average man, he follows not reason, but faith, and the naive faith requires necessary illusion and emotionally potent oversimplifications which are provided by the myth-maker to the keep ordinary person on course."

Reinhold Niebuhr

Unfortunately, that's politics in a nutshell these days.

FrancieBrady

KWAG2019 wrote: »

1935. They came back after being part of a national govt during a World War and inventing the NHS in 1945. Sensationalist. Ok.

The election in 1985 where Corbyn first got elected is seen as a decimation of the Labour party on the same scale.

Tony EH

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The GE result is a real wake up call: online discussion is well wide of the national mood in Britain. Lying, legal losses, buffoonery, racism, incompetence are all irrelevant to the voters.

Labour voters saw no benefit to their area for continuing fidelity to the party. The ruthlessness of Toryism in gutting those communities, successfully blaming foreigners and the EU and then getting a beaten people to vote for those responsible is a sight to behold. There is a supreme manipulative ability on show and a contempt for the working class. Given their capitulation it’s hard not to share that. There’s a new politics emerging and no doubt the Irish Tories are watching closely: that right Leo?

It’s impossible to see a Labour govt for at least 8 years.

The thing for me now is the deal the EU offers the UK. The EU has caved on reopening the WA and abandoned the backstop. I reckon Johnson will turn the screw now and look for more.

In a way, Labour may have dodged a bullet.

If Britain leaving the EU is going to be as disastrous as a lot of economists are suggesting, whoever is in power is going to face an absolute torrent of public anger.

Had Labour got in and done their "people's vote", which may have produced another leave result, it would have been them getting it in the neck.

What an absolute mess Cameron has left that country in.

Boggles

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And do it outside the EU. A landslide back to Labour is inevitable at some point.

Of course it is. If this government lasts (not a certainty) than that will be 14 odd years of conservative governance.

In the mean time though they need to pick a proper credible leader and from that figure out what they are and where they are going as a party.

I don't think a hell of a lot of the potential replacements though.

FrancieBrady

Boggles wrote: »

Of course it is. If this government lasts (not a certainty) than that will be 14 odd years of conservative governance.

In the mean time though they need to pick a proper credible leader and from that figure out what they are and where they are going as a party.

I don't think a hell of a lot of the potential replacements though.

If the people of the UK can cod themselves about Johnson, then they can cod themselves about a new Labour leader. And they will, like they do everywhere. Seen it all before over and over again. Bertie Ahern anybody??

Snickers Man

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Indyref2 is as likely under Boris as a Scottish World Cup win. The Tories have their majority with what, maybe a single Scottish seat? What bargaining chip could the SNP possibly have?

Sturgeon is saying that it is in the gift of the Scottish Parliament to decide on a referendum or not. Of course, the English will disagree, but hey, when you are a make-it-up-as-you-go-along monarchy instead of a constitutional republic these are the things that you can't simply do by the book.

"My referendum is more important than your referendum!"
"Oh not it isn't!"
"Oh yes it is!"

How Christmassy of them!

davedanon

KWAG2019 wrote: »

The GE result is a real wake up call: online discussion is well wide of the national mood in Britain. Lying, legal losses, buffoonery, racism, incompetence are all irrelevant to the voters.

Labour voters saw no benefit to their area for continuing fidelity to the party. The ruthlessness of Toryism in gutting those communities, successfully blaming foreigners and the EU and then getting a beaten people to vote for those responsible is a sight to behold. There is a supreme manipulative ability on show and a contempt for the working class. Given their capitulation it’s hard not to share that. There’s a new politics emerging and no doubt the Irish Tories are watching closely: that right Leo?

It’s impossible to see a Labour govt for at least 8 years.

The thing for me now is the deal the EU offers the UK. The EU has caved on reopening the WA and abandoned the backstop. I reckon Johnson will turn the screw now and look for more.

I see the fantasists-in-chief have swarmed out of the woodwork again. This post is just such utter bull****. Labour voters voted Tory because A) They hate Corbyn and didn't want to vote for him, and They are utterly fed up to the back teeth with Brexit. They voted Tory in order to, quote unquote, "get IT done". The fact that it won't get anything done, at least not yet, is immaterial.

There is no 'new politics' emerging. The Tories have been like this since Thatcher. And our 'tories' are nothing of the sort. Both main Irish parties are centre-right, economically conservative, liberal on social issues. We have no equivalent of the ERG or the Spartans, thank Christ.

As for the EU stuff.....please. This is just delusional nonsense. The UK is about to get new arseholes the width of the grand canyon from the EU and the US. Boris is going to turn focking nothing, except maybe his country, on the spit of international trading muscle.

Boggles

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If the people of the UK can cod themselves about Johnson, then they can cod themselves about a new Labour leader. And they will, like they do everywhere. Seen it all before over and over again. Bertie Ahern anybody??

I'm more talking about a leader who can unite the party and is credible enough to formulate a strategy going forward.

Boris like Bertie are likable rogues, charismatic, shít talkers.

The last 3 labour leaders weren't, they were the opposite if anything.

May wasn't and the party suffered big time because of her.

pjohnson

cryptocurrency wrote: »

UK is no different to here. Same useless types who like labour like SF, PBP, Solidarity etc.. here
Self entiltled and lazy

We are significantly smarter.

Banal meaningless slogans didn't get Casey elected but worked for Johnson.

Seathrun66

Boggles wrote: »

Of course it is. If this government lasts (not a certainty) than that will be 14 odd years of conservative governance.

In the mean time though they need to pick a proper credible leader and from that figure out what they are and where they are going as a party.

I don't think a hell of a lot of the potential replacements though.

Starmer is smart. And electable. Will appeal across the board in the way that Blair did but he's far less smarmy.

Tony EH

Calhoun wrote: »

I wouldn't say cheering is the word, more surprised that a party like labour who was able to master the media for so long has ended up in a situation where a clown like Johnson is preferable to Corbyn.

Even with the NHS at risk they still voted for them. It should have been labours to walk away with.

The British have always been stupid voters though. They have this "vote for their betters" mentality and think that the wealthy Eton/Oxbridge types have a better handle on running a country, whilst continually whinging at how bad the country is run.

Even when Labour won their biggest majority in 1997, it was with a Tory Lite at its head, who was saddled up to neo-lib policies.

They're a strange bunch indeed.

Boggles

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Starmer is smart. And electable. Will appeal across the board in the way that Blair did but he's far less smarmy.

He is the best of a poor bunch I think.

He needs to be brutal in debate though, mean even.

It's the only way to deal with Boris and his "folly" who I imagine the people will get sick of pretty quickly.

MadYaker

Tony EH wrote: »

In a way, Labour may have dodged a bullet.

If Britain leaving the EU is going to be as disastrous as a lot of economists are suggesting, whoever is in power is going to face an absolute torrent of public anger.

Had Labour got in and done their "people's vote", which may have produced another leave result, it would have been them getting it in the neck.

What an absolute mess Cameron has left that country in.

And all for what? To save the Tory party from losing votes to the brexit party. Madness.

davedanon

MadYaker wrote: »

There’s no point trying to explain it to you. It’s been explained a million times by economists all over and on every thread on boards. I’m not going back over it yet again.

He reminds of O Brother Where Art Thou?. Remember when Baby Face Nelson turned out to be a manic-depressive and lost his chutzpah, only to reappear at the end, wired to the moon as he was being led to the electric chair, and Tim Blake Nelson goes: "Looks like old George is back on top agayun" :pac:

davedanon

easypazz wrote: »

Indeed. A soft brexit is very possible with a bit of tokenism like changing the colour of the passport to make people feel good about themselves.

the colour of the passport was entirely up to member states. The UK could have had a fecking rainbow-coloured one if they wanted. While in the EU, I mean.