Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

FartyBlartFast

Kimsang wrote: »

Maybe I misunderstand you, are you saying Trump doesn't do press conferences(bold), when in fact he does them all the time..? Surely you meant something different.

To be fair now, Trumps last solo press conference prior to this (if we can count this circus) was in February 2017, which was less than a month after his inauguration.

In his defense, I'd imagine it's because his handlers absolutely cannot, and would not, let that happen.

Sweetemotion

Brian? wrote: »

I refuse to accept this means they’re fascists

You can refuse what ever you like. I refuse to accept your means as to why they aren't.

Danzy

Antifa are in academic terms not facist but in the vernacular they are fascistic.

So when the general public calls them fascist, it may not match Mussolini's definition of facism or Eco etc but it is nonetheless correct and accurate.

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

I can, I would point you towards academic research. Research that has been peer reviewed rigorously. That's actual evidence. I am not sure if you think you are setting a trap here, but isn't that real evidence?
I am not even looking for evidence to that extent. But it has to be something better than corroborating opinion.

To be honest I don't think its possible to prove evolution, despite it being a fact. I debated with creationists for years. It is proved rather through a series of challenges to the theory coming up as untrue. The longer time went on from when Darwin first proposed this theory, the more 'true' it became- as more people were able to challenge his theory and come up incorrect, hence proving his theory even more. It is now 'proven' by an abundance of evidence, and it has stood the test of time.

My 'theory'(in the scientific sense of the word):
That the mayor in Portland is telling police to take a hands off approach with regards Antifa.

What evidence have I provided?

• The police officers association president Daryl Turner has been saying this for a long time. He has the support of many officers in Portland. I have supplied evidence and quoted him numerous times already. His opinion, is not just any opinion. His is probably the most relevant opinion.
• Antifa are regularly allowed carte blance in Portland. (Dozens of video recorded evidence, often with police officers also filmed in the background standing around).
• When Antifa arrived at DC, they were dealt with swiftly and firmly, and no problems came about. Apparently Portland had warned DC to 'be careful'!
• Police have arrested practically no Antifa in Portland.
• Antifa have literally been allowed to patrol the streets in groups, masked and armed (bbc report)
• They were allowed to block roads and re-route traffic in October of last year

You could disprove my 'theory' very easily. Just show me Portland police treating Antifa the way they would treat any other domestic terror organization. Just show me one clip of mayor wheeler condemning Antifa. Show me Mayor Wheeler condemning what happened last week to Andy Ngo, but also an elderly man that was beaten with baseball bats.
Show me mayor wheeler telling his police force to come down hard on these thugs.
I could keep asking you to prove evolution, but its easier if you ask me where I can disprove it.

FartyBlartFast

Danzy wrote: »

Antifa are in academic terms not facist but in the vernacular they are fascistic.

So when the general public calls them fascist, it may not match Mussolini's definition of facism or Eco etc but it is nonetheless correct and accurate.

What would your definition of 'vernacular fascism' be?

Kimsang

FartyBlartFast wrote: »

What would your definition of 'vernacular fascism' be?

A technique to gain or maintain power. Its a sliding scale

This technique can sometimes describe the means through which fascists engage in public discourse, using methods that would not explicitly reveal their nature, while still supporting their goals through dog-whistle politics or by attempting to engage in conversations that are critical to their beliefs. This is done with the intent to shift the focus away from criticism, often onto some minor detail or tangent.

Brian?

Danzy wrote: »

Antifa are in academic terms not facist but in the vernacular they are fascistic.

So when the general public calls them fascist, it may not match Mussolini's definition of facism or Eco etc but it is nonetheless correct and accurate.

Grand so. You’ve changed the definition of the word fascism so it can apply to Antifa.

You’re basically lowering the discourse to name calling, while at the same time complaining about name calling from the left.

Brian?

Sweetemotion wrote: »

You can refuse what ever you like. I refuse to accept your means as to why they aren't.

The big difference here is that I’m correct and you’re not.

It’s beyond ridiculous to believe a load of communists and anarchists can be called fascists. If you want to go down the road of “everyone I don’t like is Hitler”, go ahead.

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

Grand so. You’ve changed the definition of the word fascism so it can apply to Antifa.
You’re basically lowering the discourse to name calling, while at the same time complaining about name calling from the left.

Actually the definition I used was coined by German Nobel laureate Heinrich Böll in a 1972 essay (titled "Will Ulrike Gnade oder freies Geleit? [de]")
It was sharply critical of the tabloid newspaper Bild's coverage of the Baader-Meinhof Gang left-wing terrorist organization. He called it crypto-fascism.

His essay echoes what we are seeing today about media protecting antifa.

It is Jason Stanley of Yale who describes it as a technique to gain power on a sliding scale.

Outlaw Pete

Many suggesting that the guy who was shot and killed whilst attempting to firebomb an ICE facility today in Tacoma was an Antifa member.

https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1150169419517190150
https://twitter.com/GovInslee/status/1150148434499760128




Apparently his friends have described him as an "anti-fascist" and said that he sent them all a manifesto of some sort. Now why would an anti-fascist attack an ICE facility?

I mean, not as if anyone has described immigration authorities as behaving like NAZIs or anything, is it?

Oh no wait, that's exactly what's been happening the past few weeks. by the likes of AOC, Alyssa Milano and the rest of the liberal left outrage brigade in the states.

Brian?

Kimsang wrote: »

To be honest I don't think its possible to prove evolution, despite it being a fact. I debated with creationists for years. It is proved rather through a series of challenges to the theory coming up as untrue. The longer time went on from when Darwin first proposed this theory, the more 'true' it became- as more people were able to challenge his theory and come up incorrect, hence proving his theory even more. It is now 'proven' by an abundance of evidence, and it has stood the test of time.

As you say, there is an abundance of evidence for evolution. It is proven, it doesn't matter whether people accept that proof or not. People can choose not to believe it, but it doesn't make it any less true. Actual indisputable evidence exists, it's not some web of ideas that coincide.

My 'theory'(in the scientific sense of the word):
That the mayor in Portland is telling police to take a hands off approach with regards Antifa.

What evidence have I provided?

• The police officers association president Daryl Turner has been saying this for a long time. He has the support of many officers in Portland. I have supplied evidence and quoted him numerous times already. His opinion, is not just any opinion. His is probably the most relevant opinion.
• Antifa are regularly allowed carte blance in Portland. (Dozens of video recorded evidence, often with police officers also filmed in the background standing around).
• When Antifa arrived at DC, they were dealt with swiftly and firmly, and no problems came about. Apparently Portland had warned DC to 'be careful'!
• Police have arrested practically no Antifa in Portland.
• Antifa have literally been allowed to patrol the streets in groups, masked and armed (bbc report)
• They were allowed to block roads and re-route traffic in October of last year

You could disprove my 'theory' very easily. Just show me Portland police treating Antifa the way they would treat any other domestic terror organization. Just show me one clip of mayor wheeler condemning Antifa. Show me Mayor Wheeler condemning what happened last week to Andy Ngo, but also an elderly man that was beaten with baseball bats.
Show me mayor wheeler telling his police force to come down hard on these thugs.
I could keep asking you to prove evolution, but its easier if you ask me where I can disprove it.

I'm sorry but there is nothing scientific about this theory. You have decided something and sought out evidence to support it and at the same time not sought out evidence to disprove it.

• The police officers association president Daryl Turner has been saying this for a long time. He has the support of many officers in Portland. I have supplied evidence and quoted him numerous times already. His opinion, is not just any opinion. His is probably the most relevant opinion.
  
  What about the Mayors statements that it isn't true? He has denied this categorically and condemned the violence commited by Antifa. You don't think Daryl Turner's statement could be politically motivated?
  
• Antifa are regularly allowed carte blance in Portland. (Dozens of video recorded evidence, often with police officers also filmed in the background standing around).
  
  Define "carte blanche". When they break the law, the police make arrests.
  
• When Antifa arrived at DC, they were dealt with swiftly and firmly, and no problems came about. Apparently Portland had warned DC to 'be careful'!
  
  I am not sure what that proves.
  
• Police have arrested practically no Antifa in Portland.
  
  Police have arrested 3 people for the assault on Ngo, so far. With an active investigation ongoing.
  
• Antifa have literally been allowed to patrol the streets in groups, masked and armed (bbc report)
  
  Walking the street in groups, even armed is not against the law. So why would the police interfere
  
• They were allowed to block roads and re-route traffic in October of last year

The right to congregate and protest is enshrined in the first amendment. So again, nothing illegal.

Brian?

Kimsang wrote: »

Actually the definition I used was coined by German Nobel laureate Heinrich Böll in a 1972 essay (titled "Will Ulrike Gnade oder freies Geleit? [de]")
It was sharply critical of the tabloid newspaper Bild's coverage of the Baader-Meinhof Gang left-wing terrorist organization. He called it crypto-fascism.

His essay echoes what we are seeing today about media protecting antifa.

It is Jason Stanley of Yale who describes it as a technique to gain power on a sliding scale.

I wasn't responding to your definition. More the complete lack of definition by another poster.

The media are not protecting Antifa. Go to google news and google Antifa, let me know what you see.

Danzy

Brian? wrote: »

Grand so. You’ve changed the definition of the word fascism so it can apply to Antifa.

You’re basically lowering the discourse to name calling, while at the same time complaining about name calling from the left.

No I did not, I said it is understandable that people view them as fascistic, if not strictly fascists in an academic sense, they are, cult of street violence, aggressive desire to enforce their norms on others, uniforms and symbolism to unite individuals into a mob, who can doubt they'd be totalitarian if they ever were in power.

I think you are mistaken in paying attention to an old name they picked or the beliefs of some of them.

Danzy

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Many suggesting that the guy who was shot and killed whilst attempting to firebomb an ICE facility today in Tacoma was an Antifa member.

https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1150169419517190150
https://twitter.com/GovInslee/status/1150148434499760128




Apparently his friends have described him as an "anti-fascist" and said that he sent them all a manifesto of some sort. Now why would an anti-fascist attack an ICE facility?

I mean, not as if anyone has described immigration authorities as behaving like NAZIs or anything, is it?

Oh no wait, that's exactly what's been happening the past few weeks. by the likes of AOC, Alyssa Milano and the rest of the liberal left outrage brigade in the states.

Thankfully he was killed before he could kill.

Brian?

Danzy wrote: »

No I did not, I said it is understandable that people view them as fascistic, if not strictly fascists in an academic sense, they are, cult of street violence, aggressive desire to enforce their norms on others, uniforms and symbolism to unite individuals into a mob, who can doubt they'd be totalitarian if they ever were in power.

I think you are mistaken in paying attention to an old name they picked or the beliefs of some of them.

People aren't saying the see them as fascistic though, I was responding to a post that straight out called them fascists.

Danzy

Brian? wrote: »

People aren't saying the see them as fascistic though, I was responding to a post that straight out called them fascists.

I have often seen them called fascists, and that would be from left and right.

Many people have not heard of the varying definitions of fascism, Eco's being spot on in my opinion.

Fascist has a vernacular use now that has changed.

They see a mob who revel in street violence and silencing those who disagree, or are in the wrong place, who revel in uniform and symbols etc.

They call it fascist.

Technically Antifa are not facist but in practice on the street or in power, they are/would be no different.

I wonder if 20cent will justify the actions of the latest antifa member to hit the news?

Willem Van Spronsen, who was carrying a rifle, was shot dead after he threw Molotov cocktails at the building and nearby cars on Saturday morning.

“He was throwing these items at the building in an effort to set it on fire. It didn’t work, it’s a concrete building,â€said Officer Loretta Cool with the Tacoma Police Department.

According to his friend Deb Bartley, Van Spronsen was a member of Antifa and his attack on the facility was intended to provoke a fatal conflict.

Danzy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wonder if 20cent will justify the actions of the latest antifa member to hit the news?

He comes from a top 10% part of the State, domestic abuser, well to do childhood and career, history of street violence, going to protests with batons and knives.

He story is text book ANTIFA.

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

As you say, there is an abundance of evidence for evolution. It is proven, it doesn't matter whether people accept that proof or not. People can choose not to believe it, but it doesn't make it any less true. Actual indisputable evidence exists, it's not some web of ideas that coincide.

You completely miss the point. You cannot prove evolution. There is evidence for it. It is not proven. A theory is an explanation that explains the facts.
Affirmative proof often doesn't exist, i.e. a memo from Mayor Wheeler to all police stating unequivocally not to touch antifa.
But the most damning proof is he DID send a memo after such events with the headline "Thank you" to all the police.

Its clear you don't really understand what evidence is. And if you think its legal to patrol the streets masked and armed in groups, you are wrong.

Like you, I could go through every bit of evidence you supply to me for evolution, and I can say "that's not proof" "that's not proof" "That's not proof". "That's not proof" "That's not proof"
If you want to prove me wrong, just show me Mayor wheeler condemning antifa. Can you post me a link to a new source or article?

20Cent

The Auswitch museum early warning signs of facism




Sure looks a lot like what is happening in the US.

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

The media are not protecting Antifa. Go to google news and google Antifa, let me know what you see.

They are protected by left-wing media. Right-wing media rightfully calls out antifa's antics.

Show me one story from a left wing media that shows antifa in an unfavourable light, that was released before the Ngo attack. It just doesn't exist. Crypto-fascism.

Thankfully since the Ngo attack there have been left-wing media outlets critical of antifa's antics.

Brian?

Kimsang wrote: »

You completely miss the point. You cannot prove evolution. There is evidence for it. It is not proven. A theory is an explanation that explains the facts.

But the evidence for evolution is so vast it amounts to proof. The fossil record and gene sequencing are actual proof. I think you may misunderstand what the word theory means in scientific terms. An idea isn’t a theory. It doesn’t become a theory without a massive amount of evidence.

Affirmative proof often doesn't exist, i.e. a memo from Mayor Wheeler to all police stating unequivocally not to touch antifa.
But the most damning proof is he DID send a memo after such events with the headline "Thank you" to all the police.

Its clear you don't really understand what evidence is. And if you think its legal to patrol the streets masked and armed in groups, you are wrong.

I understand what evidence is. Yours is so flimsy I dismiss it.

It is legal to walk the streets in armed groups, in most states.

Like you, I could go through every bit of evidence you supply to me for evolution, and I can say "that's not proof" "that's not proof" "That's not proof". "That's not proof" "That's not proof"
If you want to prove me wrong, just show me Mayor wheeler condemning antifa. Can you post me a link to a new source or article?

That’s not what I did though. Each piece of evidence you wrote wasn’t actually evidence of anything. They were statements of opinion which I think were wrong, they need evidence to to support them.

Mayor Wheeler condemned Antifa in the Oregonian newspaper last week.

I disagree with some of what Brian? says but can see his logic, but then you have posters like 20cent who seem to constantly want to flame what needs to be a cohesive conversation. I've been guilty of rising to bait and perhaps responding to bait to perpetuate it but the one thing I'd like to know is:

Is it ok to bastardise the word fascist in order to use violence against people who have a different ideal?

If your answer is no, how on the hell can you do anything but condemn antifa?

If the answer is yes....

Kimsang

Brian? wrote: »

Mayor Wheeler condemned Antifa in the Oregonian newspaper last week.

Can you point me to where he condemned Antifa; All I can find is this quote

"Protests that devolved into bloody street brawls have no place in Portland and are a black mark against the city’s reputation,"
Which for me is not a condemnation of Antifa.

RayPurchase

Kimsang wrote: »

Actually the definition I used was coined by German Nobel laureate Heinrich Böll in a 1972 essay (titled "Will Ulrike Gnade oder freies Geleit? [de]")
It was sharply critical of the tabloid newspaper Bild's coverage of the Baader-Meinhof Gang left-wing terrorist organization. He called it crypto-fascism.

His essay echoes what we are seeing today about media protecting antifa.

It is Jason Stanley of Yale who describes it as a technique to gain power on a sliding scale.

First, I will start this post by clearly and unequivocally stating: I am not a supporter for antifa, and this is not a defense of antifa.

First, the term crypto-fascism does not mean what you seem to want it to, or anything close. Crypto-fascism is identified as "the secret support for, or admiration of, fascism. The term is used to imply that an individual or group keeps this support or admiration hidden to avoid political persecution or political suicide. The common usage is "crypto-fascist", one who practices this support. In some circumstances, it may also be a cognate for "quasi-fascist" and refer to a person who is viewed as holding fascistic beliefs which stop short of conscious support for the ideology of fascism."

This makes it essentially impossible for antifa to be 'crypto-fascists'. Crypto-anarchists, perhaps. Crypto-communists, perhaps. Crypto-fascists, not even close. A much better example of a crypto-fascist would be someone like Richard Spencer, or increasingly as per the identifying materials cited a few posts up (which if I am correct, is actually not from Auschiwtz, but the US Holocaust Museum), Donald Trump.



Now that we have that out of the way, your interpretation is spectacularly wrong. The article had absolutely nothing to do with 'protections' and actually was the complete opposite of what you are trying to pass it off as. It was written somewhat in defense of the militant far left, anti-fascist BM Gang's treatment in the media which Boll saw as unfair. The BM Gang were somewhat ironically here, formed in no small part to (amongst other things) combat what they saw as a lack of effectiveness in getting rid of the lasting residue of Nazism/fascism in Germany and German politics, even claiming post war German government to have Nazis and Nazi sympathisers in it's ranks.

If any of this sounds familiar, it is because the article you are referencing was written as a criticism of media treatment of a 1970s group with considerable similarities to antifa.

Heinrich Boll's piece you mention was specifically calling out Bild and others for their smears on the Baader-Meinhof gang, and of attributing crimes to them without sufficient evidence. What is more, in it he even asks "how about investigating the Nazi' instead and seeing how interested the public is in that?", lands heavy criticism at the doorstep of German media for blaming the BM Gang for crimes they did not know were committed by them, and even point-blank calls them [Bild] outright fascists for doing so with a direct comparison to Hitler's propagandist Hermann Goring while also mocking them for getting so worked up over what in his mind, was a very small threat.

Here are some excerpts...

Where the police authorities investigate, suspect, combine, "Bild" is already significantly further: "Bild" knows. Thick title on the front page of the (Cologne) edition of 23. 12. 71: "Baader-Meinhof group continues to murder".

---

It [The Baader-Meinhof Gang's Manifesto] is a declaration of war by desperate theorists, those who have been persecuted and denounced, who have been cornered, cornered, and whose theories sound far more violent than their practice. To be sure, Baader's liberation was not the most convincing leap from theory to action (convincing neither observers nor contributors). Among other things, the manifesto contains something like a confession: "Neither the little money that we should have stolen, nor the few car and document thefts that are being investigated against us, not even the attempted assassination attempted to us. justify the dance for themselves. "

---

On the last page of "Bild" (23. 12. 71) you will find little of police investigations. Instead, two special columns: "The victims of the Baader-Meinhof gang", "The spoils of the Baader-Meinhof gang". Among the victims "Bild" is not only the proven (and admitted) victim Georg Linke, it also includes all those who are not quite clear who shot them: Helmut Ruf and Norbert Schmid, and there "Bild "is already sacrificing, also the police master of the armor Herbert Schoner from Kaiserslautern is added for the sake of simplicity.

---

I hope Mr. Springer and his accomplices will get stuck in the joke with the bones of their Christmas car. You can get your nose full and I have it full. "Bild" will probably be soon, a poor devil like Hermann Göring. who unfortunately had to kill himself to count among the victims of fascism.

---

This form of demagogy would not even be justified if the assumptions of the Kaiserslautern police were to prove correct. In every manifestation of the rule of law, every suspect has a right that, if one may already publish a mere suspicion, it is emphasized that he is only suspected.

---

The headline "Baader-Meinhof Group continues to murder" is a call for lynching. Millions. for which "image" is the only source of information is thus provided with falsified information. One has probably enough of the suspects or only suspicious-looking Mr. XY Zimmermann heard.

---

The term constitutional state becomes questionable if one includes the entire public with their at least uncontrollable instincts in the executive; when sacrificing the quality of law to the quantity of success and popularity. The cinematographic dramatized feature film reconstructions, which Mr. Zimmermann shows as illustrations, are nothing more than lousy grisicals for the philistine who sits in slippers, drinks beer and believes he would be an eyewitness, when he is just an opaque mixture of fact and fiction watching, occasionally those in which body parts play the main role. How about Mr. XY Zimmerman looking for one of the still wanted Nazi criminals in the Holy Crime Hour? Just as a test to test how German Crime Genius would react to that?

---

This is indeed an extremely threatening situation for the Federal Republic of Germany. It is time to declare the national emergency. The state of emergency of the public consciousness, which is constantly increased by publications like "Bild".

---

Ulrike Meinhof may not want mercy, she probably does not expect this right. Nevertheless, they [BM Gang] should be offered a safe conduct, a public trial, and they should also make a public complaint to Mr. Springer [Bild's publisher] for incitement.

If this were released today, it would without even the slightest shred of doubt, be met by Trump and far right supporters with sarcastic cries of "everyone I disagree with is a Nazi" and an 'antifa terrorist sympathiser'. Partly because Boll would be calling out the people in those administrations with neo-Nazi and white supremacist links for what they are.

I say this, because this is exactly what he was labelled as by the conservative politicians following this piece. Because the article he wrote that you referenced, was a clear defense of a left-wing, quite explicitly antifascist movement, in relation to their treatment and characterisation as a large threat, in the media. Exactly as so many here are eager to paint them as.

Kimsang

RayPurchase wrote: »

First, the term crypto-fascism does not mean what you seem to want it to, or anything close. Crypto-fascism is identified as "the secret support for, or admiration of, fascism.

You left out this part

"and refer to a person who is viewed as holding fascistic beliefs which stop short of conscious support for the ideology of fascism."

RayPurchase

Kimsang wrote: »

You left out this part

"and refer to a person who is viewed as holding fascistic beliefs which stop short of conscious support for the ideology of fascism."

No I didn't. It's right there in my post. It is quite literally the very first paragraph of my post, beyond the one sentence disclaimer I included on top about not supporting antifa.

First, the term crypto-fascism does not mean what you seem to want it to, or anything close. Crypto-fascism is identified as "the secret support for, or admiration of, fascism. The term is used to imply that an individual or group keeps this support or admiration hidden to avoid political persecution or political suicide. The common usage is "crypto-fascist", one who practices this support. In some circumstances, it may also be a cognate for "quasi-fascist" and refer to a person who is viewed as holding fascistic beliefs which stop short of conscious support for the ideology of fascism."

I initially gave you the benefit of the doubt in thinking this article said what you thought it did as an error, or misunderstanding. I am beginning to doubt that, when you're quoting my post and claiming I am omitting things that are literally right there in writing.

I would advise you to actually read my post, and get back to me on what you disagree with within it. Otherwise, you're just admitting that you were badly mistaken.

VicMackey1

20Cent wrote: »

The Auswitch museum early warning signs of facism




Sure looks a lot like what is happening in the US.

That poster/list was never endorsed by the museum. It was only sold in their gift shop. Someone took a photo of it and it wasn't long before it became a viral turd of sh1te posted throughout every social media platform. The person that wrote this list described himself as an amateur historian. He is not an authority on the subject but he was described with the false title "Dr." in an effort to give it some credibility!

How do people keep falling for these fake viral posts/tweets over and over?

VicMackey1

Danzy wrote: »

Thankfully he was killed before he could kill.

It was a great outcome. Im happy he was killed before he could do any harm.

Eric Cartman

20Cent wrote: »

The Auswitch museum early warning signs of facism




Sure looks a lot like what is happening in the US.

sounds like israel on palestine, or the lefts idea of a perfect ireland.