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Used Model S vs new Model 3

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Comments

  • Moderators Posts: 12,352 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Of the excuses we come up with to justify buying a Tesla, that's a damn good one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    It does meet my needs, even with my heavy foot I should get about 300km worst case, and 350-400km in more normal circumstances.

    However the question you just answered elsewhere might actually be a deal breaker. Not being able to change from km to miles. Ridiculous as it may sound, I grew up on miles and I still think in miles. Do most of my driving in the North too, so still on miles.

    I don't want a car with only km on the display. If I can't change it, it's a dead duck.
    I'm in a funny spot with that myself. Miles only, but for fossil fuel cars only.
    I think in miles/MPG and km/wh/km.


    Aside: I saw your posts in other places and here (eg facebook groups before I got banned/left) and presumed you lived in the North as your posts were always in miles.


    I'm not 100% on it for the Kias though, check it before writing it off entirely. I am 100% for the hyundais, having owned an Ioniq and test driven a Kona


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭Mike3287


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Same for myself (and I reached a similar conclusion)
    We've been told off the record that our jobs are likely to remain as WFH optional indefinitely. With that, I don't need a long range EV anymore.

    Which is exactly why Phil,Madlad and a few of the other crazy commuters here should wait a while

    Going to be a flood of good cars and alot of long range EVs on the 2nd hand market soon, especially from the UK

    Those now former crazy commuters that are WFH will have no need for them

    I work for a large multinational like alot of people here and WFH is the future

    Amount of colleagues I have talked to that want to get rid of their over priced cars is staggering, first conversation that comes up these days is how much fuel money they have saved and how little they drive

    WFH going to be huge issue for automakers tbh

    I'd wait Phil

    Its only trending oneway

    We are already seeing a firesale of Model S on this sub forum too

    Dont blame them

    Better be first ;-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    It does meet my needs, even with my heavy foot I should get about 300km worst case, and 350-400km in more normal circumstances.

    eNiro 64kWh has a better real life range than Tesla Model S 85 / 90

    Unless you drive at over the speed limit


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    unkel wrote: »
    eNiro 64kWh has a better real life range than Tesla Model S 85 / 90

    Unless you drive at over the speed limit
    This shows the difference between a Kia/hyundai labelled "64" (with 64kWh available new) and a tesla labelled "90" which had 82 from new, later reduced to 78kWh via software update increasing the buffer.


    14kWh extra energy simply doesnt overcome the weight of the S


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Mike3287 wrote: »
    Which is exactly why Phil,Madlad and a few of the other crazy commuters here should wait a while

    Going to be a flood of good cars and alot of long range EVs on the 2nd hand market soon, especially from the UK

    Those now former crazy commuters that are WFH will have no need for them

    I work for a large multinational like alot of people here and WFH is the future

    Amount of colleagues I have talked to that want to get rid of their over priced cars is staggering, first conversation that comes up these days is how much fuel money they have saved and how little they drive

    WFH going to be huge issue for automakers tbh

    I'd wait Phil

    Its only trending oneway

    We are already seeing a firesale of Model S on this sub forum too

    Dont blame them

    Better be first ;-)
    You're right. But buying a Kia is a logical financial decision.


    Buying (or selling) a Tesla is not a logical decision. If everyone bought cars based on logic, no one would have a Tesla except Unkel on account of him stealing one.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Gianna Slow Gymnast


    Depends, on the Kia thread I saw pcp quote of 600 pm with 5 k down and 14,900 GFMV so Kia are expecting depreciation to be heavy, I don’t yet know what mileage that was for.

    I won’t be working from home any time in the near future so require site access all the time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    5k down + 600pm nearly gets you a model 3 SR+


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,153 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    ELM327 wrote: »
    5k down + 600pm nearly gets you a model 3 SR+

    But they don't offer PCP. That figure for the e-Niro, which was for 20k km a year, comes to €41,600 if you paid the final value. That's only €600 for the cost of the finance.

    Cheapest mdoel 3 is €49k before you add finance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    ELM327 wrote: »
    tesla labelled "90" which had 82 from new, later reduced to 78kWh via software update increasing the buffer.

    Now that I did not know. I heard about longevity issues of the 90 pack alright. The 85 also has 78kWh usable. I guess it explains why you and I seem to have similar range, about 400km in mixed driving and 300km at the motorway speed limit (or slightly above :D)

    Not only is the Tesla Model S much heavier than the eNiro, its drivetrain is also less efficient. So it will use more energy per km. Unless you increase the speed significantly, then weight doesn't matter as much and the superior aerodynamics of the Tesla work in its favour


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭Mike3287


    ELM327 wrote: »
    You're right. But buying a Kia is a logical financial decision.


    Buying (or selling) a Tesla is not a logical decision. If everyone bought cars based on logic, no one would have a Tesla except Unkel on account of him stealing one.

    Kia is an ok deal in fairness, but if Phil is patient he could be also pull like Unkel

    40k for a Kia is alot

    He has a great EV anyway in the i3, which is much better to drive than that Kia and lives near the border

    An MG ZS 44kWh is not far off 20k now, half price of the Kia and also 7 year warranty

    Range might not suit him though

    https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202003168481638?advertising-location=at_cars&postcode=M52TY&model=ZS&page=1&make=MG&fuel-type=Electric&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭Mike3287


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    But they don't offer PCP. That figure for the e-Niro, which was for 20k km a year, comes to €41,600 if you paid the final value. That's only €600 for the cost of the finance.

    Cheapest mdoel 3 is €49k before you add finance.

    2nd hand is the way to go on Model 3

    Saw a guy on pistonheads got a 19 SR+ for just over 35k recently

    About 40k here inc vrt

    Was a nice red one too with the sport alloys, about 5k worth of extras

    Would be 55k new here


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Gianna Slow Gymnast


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    But they don't offer PCP. That figure for the e-Niro, which was for 20k km a year, comes to €41,600 if you paid the final value. That's only €600 for the cost of the finance.

    Cheapest model 3 is €49k before you add finance.

    That's actually pretty high depreciation figure calculated by Kia, this means the car is worth only 15K after 3 years and 60,000 miles 40K new.

    No question, the m3 costs 10K more but if it's worth 7-10 K more after year 3 same mileage as the gfmv quoted for the kia that almost matches the new cost of the Kia even if the m3 has less range, what 300 kms for the sr+ ? + it has autopilot as standard which is going to be miles better than kia lka or whatever they call it.

    Definitely something to ponder, or keep the i3 Rex, definitely far better in the wet and a lot more fun and it doesn't feel near as heavy on the road.


  • Moderators Posts: 12,352 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    That's actually pretty high depreciation figure calculated by Kia, this means the car is worth only 15K after 3 years and 60,000 miles 40K new.

    .

    I in no way believe this will be the case. There's flip all eNiros around and they're clearly the most practical SUV EV, for non Tesla+ money. Even here on boards a few have mentioned how they plan to buy a second hand one when they're 1-2 years old, so there's demand in their second hand market.
    Mid 20s would be my guess. I can imagine the model 3 being slow up depreciate here in Ireland too, for similar reasons. And once the vat on imports comes in they'll hold even better.

    Depressing, because likely I'll be shopping after the vat is introduced.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    ..and who's to say they will retain the €5k VRT exemption for imports outside the EU....UK imports then zero for us EV importers


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Final value is a poor indicator of what depreciation will actually be like. It's in the dealer's interest to make this figure look low (suggesting to some people that high depreciation will happen), because they will scoop higher monthly payments and there will be a better chance of equity at the end, thus sucking the customer back in for another very profitable deal

    C'mon folks, this is not rocket science :p :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    slave1 wrote: »
    ..and who's to say they will retain the €5k VRT exemption for imports outside the EU....UK imports then zero for us EV importers
    It's there currently for US EV imports.
    I know, because I checked!


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Gianna Slow Gymnast


    I in no way believe this will be the case. There's flip all eNiros around and they're clearly the most practical SUV EV, for non Tesla+ money. Even here on boards a few have mentioned how they plan to buy a second hand one when they're 1-2 years old, so there's demand in their second hand market.
    Mid 20s would be my guess. I can imagine the model 3 being slow up depreciate here in Ireland too, for similar reasons. And once the vat on imports comes in they'll hold even better.

    Depressing, because likely I'll be shopping after the vat is introduced.

    It may or maybe not the case I would say the m3 will hold its value a lot better due to autopilot OTA updates etc.

    Kia is just a Kia after all not running it down buts let’s be realistic 40 k for a Kia is a lot.

    M3 also has much faster dc charging.

    Kia is also not taking any chances with such a low GFMV after only 60,000 kms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yeah, 40k is a lot for a Kia.

    To be honest if I were looking for a logical new EV it would be the ZS EV or the e208


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,548 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    It may or maybe not the case I would say the m3 will hold its value a lot better due to autopilot OTA updates etc.

    Good point. AP1 in the Model S has not had any updates for many years, it basically was abandoned as soon as Tesla developed their own software when they dumped Mobileye

    Tesla is spending a lot of time and effort on AP2 and onwards going towards self driving. If any one company in the world will win this race, it will be worth hundreds of billions of dollars, possibly more.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    unkel wrote: »
    Good point. AP1 in the Model S has not had any updates for many years, it basically was abandoned as soon as Tesla developed their own software when they dumped Mobileye

    Tesla is spending a lot of time and effort on AP2 and onwards going towards self driving. If any one company in the world will win this race, it will be worth hundreds of billions of dollars, possibly more.
    Correct
    AP1 was a bought in system which is already feature complete as a driver aid.
    AP2 onwards is inhouse software and hardware moving to FSD

    In some ways AP1 is better than others (speed limit detection, system stability) but in most ways AP>2 is better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,153 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    I'm leaning more towards chasing a second hand Model 3 to be honest.

    I don't think either will suffer from huge depreciation, although there could be a few more Model 3s coming on the second hand market once the Model Y lands but that's a long way off.

    The e-Niro is certainly a nice car, inside and out. And it will beat the 3 for range. But as said, €40k for a Kia or around €44k for a Tesla...

    I really need to get a sit down in a Model 3. My only up close and personal experience in a Tesla was the P90d I drove in Norway.

    The 3 is quite different inside, even more minimalist than the S. I definitely need a nosey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭jordan191


    i'd say drive both Phil, i was in the same boat as you last year. i drove the 40kw leaf first, range was 200 kms realistically, then drove a kona ( we already have a hyuandai tucson & am happy with the quality & warranty) but for 40k it was too low spec and didn't feel like a 50K car ( before grants) then drove a 64kw e niro, did deal with a garage on trade in but they couldn't get me a e niro. To be honest there is noting wrong with the E niro but it was a bit plain good everyday car, kind of car that would be grand, but not a joy to drive

    But then i test drove an SR+ model 3, all reason went out the window & i ended up with a model 3 performance (base) and am totally happy that i didn't but the E Niro as i love the model 3 and really enjoy driving it everyday


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Gianna Slow Gymnast


    But do think that the e-Niro is going to depreciate heavier, and this will go against the cost of a m3 at the end.

    If the m3 is 5 k kigher value and it could very well be the the gap is narrower, it could be more but without doubt the used value of an E-Niro is going to be less.

    Good car but m3 a lot better if the boot is practical enough, AP2, can drive itself without touching the steering, fantastic for me driving 35K a year or more now. OTA updates will only improve AP and add new features or improve existing ones. Much faster charging, charger dependent of course but still.

    By the way what AC charging options exist for the m3 ?

    I do like the E-Niro but if it were 5K cheaper even and included LED lights it would make it a bit more attractive, the risk to depreciation is greater + PCP value isn't good as you pay 85% of the value of the car which defies the logic of PCP.

    Think of it this way, 14,900 PCP for 20K Kms is not great, 60,000 Kms at year 3 give or take mine would be 105,000 Kms, GFMV could be 10-12K yikes, no way.

    Kia is giving a hint out there regarding expected depreciation and I would take it seriously because ideally they want to make PCP as attractive as possible and in this case PCP is not attractive and certainly not for me.

    I think I checked the m3 site and with 10K down and 700 PM you can get m3 over 4 years was it ? 5% interest ? this was for SR+ which I think includes everything anyone would want to begin with including AP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,153 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    I think I checked the m3 site and with 10K down and 700 PM you can get m3 over 4 years was it ? 5% interest ? this was for SR+ which I think includes everything anyone would want to begin with including AP.

    I don't think buying new would be an option, I could get a nearly new one in the UK for about €6k less. Makes more sense.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Gianna Slow Gymnast


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I don't think buying new would be an option, I could get a nearly new one in the UK for about €6k less. Makes more sense.

    True, if you can find one and get it over. But the only thing is getting a car via bank loan is going to be much more expensive than some PCP deals, another thing to consider, unless there are low interest loans I don't know about.

    What do you need again to import car from the U.k ?


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Gianna Slow Gymnast


    It may or maybe not the case I would say the m3 will hold its value a lot better due to autopilot OTA updates etc.

    Kia is just a Kia after all not running it down buts let’s be realistic 40 k for a Kia is a lot.

    M3 also has much faster dc charging.

    Kia is also not taking any chances with such a low GFMV after only 60,000 kms.

    + M3 is much faster than E-Niro and RWD, don't underestimate the value of RWD with EV.

    I think I would have real issue with FWD Niro to be honest, the i3 has so much more grip and this greatly effects 0-100 times on damp and wet roads.


  • Moderators Posts: 12,352 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    But as said, €40k for a Kia or around €44k for a Tesla...

    But that's 40k for a new Kia Vs 44k for a second hand Model 3. Wouldn't mid 30s for a secondhand Kia be a fairer comparison?

    I ran my options last night...
    New 3 is too expensive
    Secondhand 3 are still a bit too expensive at 44k from the UK. And don't exist in Ireland at the moment.

    New Kia is expensive, but ticks most practical boxes. Slow to get hands on one though.
    Secondhand Kia don't exist in Ireland, and there's no real value in the UK from what I seen (about 38k brought home).

    Model S new... Pfff, good one.
    Model S second hand would be around 30-35k to tick the boxes I have, but the drawback of 1 being massive and 2 wife likely not too keen on driving one.

    ICE.... I'd do it, if the options above were not a runner (and if I'm right in thinking the ioniq as our main family car will be too small), but I'd hate it. Wouldn't want to put money into it either, so the options there were pretty uninspiring.


  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭Gforcemurphy


    True, if you can find one and get it over. But the only thing is getting a car via bank loan is going to be much more expensive than some PCP deals, another thing to consider, unless there are low interest loans I don't know about.

    What do you need again to import car from the U.k ?

    Best I could see in terms of straight (non-PCP) finance was 5.9% from An Post. Was for over €20k I think, can be repaid over 5 years. Didn’t look that closely though, would be happy to be pointed towards better deals.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭Gile_na_gile


    But that's 40k for a new Kia Vs 44k for a second hand Model 3. Wouldn't mid 30s for a secondhand Kia be a fairer comparison?

    I ran my options last night...
    New 3 is too expensive
    Secondhand 3 are still a bit too expensive at 44k from the UK. And don't exist in Ireland at the moment.

    New Kia is expensive, but ticks most practical boxes. Slow to get hands on one though.
    Secondhand Kia don't exist in Ireland, and there's no real value in the UK from what I seen (about 38k brought home).

    Model S new... Pfff, good one.
    Model S second hand would be around 30-35k to tick the boxes I have, but the drawback of 1 being massive and 2 wife likely not too keen on driving one.

    ICE.... I'd do it, if the options above were not a runner (and if I'm right in thinking the ioniq as our main family car will be too small), but I'd hate it. Wouldn't want to put money into it either, so the options there were pretty uninspiring.


    This is a problem that 'manmath' can fix - second mortgages and so on. I'm not in the market until 2022-3 for a new EV, but I'd be the same. The Model S is just that bit too big, and too exec in styling for my tastes - I'd still love it though. The upgrade to an e-Niro means a hit on depreciation because it is new, so waiting a few years will mean competitive prices on SH sales for both eNiro and Model 3 (there is also the Leaf62). I'm sure they will all hold their value increasingly well as the market share for EVs increases.



    I also know that if I testdrive the M3 in year or two, I will only want an M3...


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