Used Model S vs new Model 3

copeyhagen

copeyhagen wrote: »

yeah, ive been keeping an eye on the CPOs but the prices of similar ones to my own have deffo gone up for whatever reason.

a used S or a new 3, i think it would be a win either way!!

If I had the choice now after seeing the video of the AP in the m3 going through a roundabout and merging on a motor I'm convinced AP is a must have and it's much more advanced in the new m3.

No way a 40K Niro/e-soul can compete with 170 Kw, even if it only charges at that rate for a short time at a compatible charger. + 5.5 ish seconds 0-100, RWD.

The E-Niro may have more range than the SR+ but the AP would be much more valuable to me driving so many endless Motorway Kms. The Kia version would drive me nuts whinging at me to put my hand on the wheel.

+ the M3 will get OTA updates, the niro won't.

Depreciation on the Niro/e-soul might be high enough to mean the kia cars cost more or the same or the gap might be very narrow.

The only thing is whether or not I can live with the m3 boot.

slave1

unkel wrote: »

.. It's just a boot is very unpractical even if you don't have kids and rarely need to carry much stuff..

Deleted User wrote: »

The only thing is whether or not I can live with the m3 boot.

Totally agree with both of you, one look at the boot (and its opening size) and it was a straight no with me, Y will sort that out

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

Y will sort that out

Two years from now. That's a long time!

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

Two years from now. That's a long time!

Might be good timing for me, lots of Ys hit the new market, lots of 3s hit the second hand one.

The rush of blood has passed. There is just no sense in me changing the car now. I'd love to, but a €40k car (either used 3 or new e-Niro) would be a luxury.

I had the Leaf for 3.5 years. Cost me the equivalent of about €16k and I sold for just under €10k so a cost of less than €2k a year.

The i3 cost me about €26k and if I sold now I might get €20k which would be a drop of €3.6k a year. I've only had it since October 2018.

So I'm going to remain sensible for now. Give it a year to 18 months and see what the second hand Model 3 market is like and how the i3 holds its value going forward. Still only 45k km on it at nearly 4 years old so it's still fresh.

I might go and splash out on the leather interior I've been chasing for a while instead and pretend it's a new car.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Might be good timing for me, lots of Ys hit the new market, lots of 3s hit the second hand one.

The rush of blood has passed. There is just no sense in me changing the car now. I'd love to, but a €40k car (either used 3 or new e-Niro) would be a luxury.

I had the Leaf for 3.5 years. Cost me the equivalent of about €16k and I sold for just under €10k so a cost of less than €2k a year.

The i3 cost me about €26k and if I sold now I might get €20k which would be a drop of €3.6k a year. I've only had it since October 2018.

So I'm going to remain sensible for now. Give it a year to 18 months and see what the second hand Model 3 market is like and how the i3 holds its value going forward. Still only 45k km on it at nearly 4 years old so it's still fresh.

I might go and splash out on the leather interior I've been chasing for a while instead and pretend it's a new car.

I think it's a wise decision not to spend 40K on a E-niro, even on PCP it's a lot of money with a GFMV of only 14,900 that's a lot of money to put in on PCP, it means Kia are afraid of depreciation and so they should be and so should we, especially if Kia are lol, 40K for a Kia is a lot of money no matter how good it is.

I think it will definitely be a Ms or M3 for me, the disadvantage about the MS is with my mileage a high mileage ms might not be wise, 160 K Kms warranty on a m3 would see me around 4.5 years driving. But only 80,000 Kms I think 2 years on the rest of the car.

The much more advanced AP alone in the m3 means this makes it far more attractive than the 2015/16 Model S not to mention the Kia E-Niro which whinges at you to put your hand on the wheel and the M3 AP will get much better with software updates.

The M3 boot is a pain but if I can fit suitcases in there it's fine, it's way larger than the boot in the i3 + if I go to Ikea I'll be taking the Outlander.

So yes, a lot to think about between now and November.

Around the time I'll get a settlement figure off the finance company and see what Tesla offer me for the i3 but chances are it will be just handed back like the leaf.

Black_Knight

Can't imagine the boot in the 3 being that bad. Looks good and big, and the opening doesn't look that much different to any saloon I've had. My requirements to transport washing machines are pretty rare.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Might be good timing for me, lots of Ys hit the new market, lots of 3s hit the second hand one.

I admire your optimism, but that's what you said two years ago too about second hand Konas and eNiros hitting the market soon at hugely depreciated prices. It didn't happen. And far less chance of cheap second hand Model 3 Teslas.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

with a GFMV of only 14,900 that's a lot of money to put in on PCP, it means Kia are afraid of depreciation

No they are not

You seem to be completely blind to rational thoughts about PCP and you don't seem to listen to any arguments put to you time and time again. A low GFMV resulting in high but just about palatable monthly payments is the ideal position a dealer wants to be in to have the highest chance to suck you into buying another of their brand new cars on PCP at the end of this one.

slave1

I think the ilk of folks owning current Tesla's will hold on to them relative to other car ownership cycles, time will tell, just a feeling

Lumen

slave1 wrote: »

I think the ilk of folks owning current Tesla's will hold on to them relative to other car ownership cycles, time will tell, just a feeling

All bets are off when the Y comes out!

unkel

unkel wrote: »

No they are not

You seem to be completely blind to rational thoughts about PCP and you don't seem to listen to any arguments put to you time and time again. A low GFMV resulting in high but just about palatable monthly payments is the ideal position a dealer wants to be in to have the highest chance to suck you into buying another of their brand new cars on PCP at the end of this one.

No I don't think you know what PCP is all about or how it works.

The idea of PCP is to put as little into the car as possible.

A low GFMV means the manufacturer is expecting high depreciation and this means you have to pay more for the car than a car with Low GFMV, a low GFMV only means there's a greater chance of someone wanting to just pay off the car at the end than with a larger GFMV, especially in this case where the majority of the car has been paid off and in my case this would be a lower GFMV simply due to my mileage making it even less attractive.

If I have a High GFMV then I'm much more likely not to want to pay so much to keep the car and move on to a new one so it's in the interest to the dealer to ensure PCP deals are more attractive, a Low GFMV and high monthly payments are not the way to do this.

PCP works by you paying the calculated depreciation + interest over 3 years and the agreed mileage, so by paying off the brunt of the car you're paying based on a higher calculated ( expected ) depreciation + interest meaning PCP in the case of the E-Niro and possibly E-Soul/Kona is not viable or not nearly as attractive except in the case where the interest is lower than the cost to take out a car loan but the balloon has to be paid or refinanced and chances are this interest won't be so cheap and this has to be calculated in too.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

I admire your optimism, but that's what you said two years ago too about second hand Konas and eNiros hitting the market soon at hugely depreciated prices. It didn't happen. And far less chance of cheap second hand Model 3 Teslas.

Find of misquoting eh?

I don't believe I ever expected "hugely depreciated" Konas or e-Niros. I expected them to be starting to come onto the second hand market. Not hugely depreciated, but with the initial sting gone.

Same goes for the Model 3. I could already have one on the road with the first €6k or so of depreciation gone. I'll hold off and see if that has come down a bit more in a year or so.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

a GFMV of only 14,900 that's a lot of money to put in on PCP, it means Kia are afraid of depreciation and so they should be and so should we

Deleted User wrote: »

A high GFMV means the manufacturer is expecting high depreciation

jhegarty

What's the deal with Model 3s not having an SEAI grant like this one :

https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/new/5YJ3204_491173f411f5f9b3a718fdedd154a339

unkel

unkel wrote: »

haha, yeah I was in work with limited time lol.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

The top one is still correct.

"a GFMV of only 14,900 that's a lot of money to put in on PCP, it means Kia are afraid of depreciation and so they should be and so should we"

unkel

It doesn't mean that at all

It's set deliberately low if the dealer reckons they can get away with the higher monthly payments. This will lead to equity in the car when the lease is up, so it will make the step to a new deal (from the same company) easier. They suck you in and keep you forever

But seriously, save a bit harder for another year or two and forever forward, you will be able to buy your cars with cash (so you will be able to negotiate a much better deal and choose your own timing) and save a fortune. But that's rather off topic for this thread. Or even this forum.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

It doesn't mean that at all

It's set deliberately low if the dealer reckons they can get away with the higher monthly payments. This will lead to equity in the car when the lease is up, so it will make the step to a new deal (from the same company) easier. They suck you in and keep you forever

But seriously, save a bit harder for another year or two and forever forward, you will be able to buy your cars with cash (so you will be able to negotiate a much better deal and choose your own timing) and save a fortune. But that's rather off topic for this thread. Or even this forum.

No, you got it wrong, PCP isn't about having more money than the GFMV to temp someone to buy another car, it's designed to have high GFMV with minimal deposit and minimum repayments, the High GFMV at the end is the deterrent against keeping the car, a low GFMV means it's more tempting to just pay off the car.

A low GFMV is the dealer/finance company being cautious because they don't want to risk having the car handed back if it depreciates heavily. It's set so that if the car looses a lot of value then you will have paid most of the depreciation.

But no point trying to convince you......

Gumbo

jhegarty wrote: »

What's the deal with Model 3s not having an SEAI grant like this one :

https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/new/5YJ3204_491173f411f5f9b3a718fdedd154a339

Business orders?

copeyhagen

the boot on the 3 isnt that bad, the s was ridiculous i admit, but the 3 is decent. i dont load the boot with 2 bikes, 2 scooters and shopping every day!

i used the S for ikea once and it was class, but i still had to put the rear seats down, no doubt i would have managed the same with the 3.

it will work alright for 99.9% of the time i think. i go on 2 holidays a year and we use the womans civic for that... ****ed if im aprking my yoke on the gravel in quickpark.. so much of a muchness

btkm8unsl0w5r4

For some reason the boot of cars gets mentioned all the time at the moment. Why? For a car its size the model 3 boot is pretty big, you can fold down the rear seats, and there is another in the front. If you are in regular need of hauling long loads may consider a car with a bigger boot, the model 3 is not a big car, and the BMW 3 series has the same sort of capacity and load aperture. It is totally flat which makes it a lot more usable than most cars. Want a bigger boot...get bigger car, simples.

99% of the time most peoples boots are empty. Maybe I am alone in this, but I dont understand people obsession with boots, and it often seems an excuse to dislike a car rather than an actual practical concern.

Lumen

Kamari Uninterested Legume wrote: »

For a car its size the model 3 boot is pretty big

No, for a saloon car of its size the boot is pretty big. That's why saloon cars are incredible unpopular.

It wouldn't be an issue if the Model Y was available, people who wanted a roomy crossover hatch thing would buy that.

unkel

Kamari Uninterested Legume wrote: »

For some reason the boot of cars gets mentioned all the time at the moment. Why? For a car its size the model 3 boot is pretty big, you can fold down the rear seats, and there is another in the front. If you are in regular need of hauling long loads may consider a car with a bigger boot, the model 3 is not a big car, and the BMW 3 series has the same sort of capacity and load aperture.

This is it. The Model 3 and BMW 3-series are very similar in size too, among the smaller of the D-segment cars. The last time I checked the folding down rear seats were an optional extra in the BMW though, it's standard in the Tesla

As for boot, a lot of families need a car with a hatchback for (occasionally) carrying big stuff. Or a dog. For us our car is our only family car, we need it to be a hatchback. If you are a two car family and your other car is already a hatchback, then it doesn't matter of course

That said, before we had a dog, we managed fine with saloons with big boots. And that's with 3 kids. But obviously it was difficult or impossible to transport bikes, fridges or 10' christmas trees

https://www.rac.co.uk/loans/what-is-pcp


What are the advantages of PCP?

Typically, monthly payments with PCP are lower than with hire purchase, because with a PCP there is a balloon payment at the end of the term. It can be simpler with PCP to roll the deal over at the end of the term and get another new vehicle. And customers are protected to some extent against depreciation – if the value of the vehicle declines quicker than expected during the loan term, it can simply be handed back to the finance provider.

So a low GFMV on the Kia E-Niro means most of this depreciation will have been paid by you and the finance company is ensuring they don't get stung with the high depreciation.

This is the attraction to PCP, low deposit, low monthly payments, high GFMV meaning you pay as little for the car as possible, it's not working like that on the PCP deals for the E-Niro.

unkel

Paying thousands more for a car is no attraction to me

But as said, pretty much off topic for in here

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Paying thousands more for a car is no attraction to me

Exactly, which is why PCP is designed in a way which sees the buyer pay less via low deposit, low monthly payments and high GFMV which is high due to the low deposit and low monthly payments and the high GFMV is the stick that makes People want to change not the other way around, high monthly payments and low GFMV mean the buyer pays the majority of the car and takes the most risk with depreciation and this is not the intended purpose of PCP.

unkel

Thousands cheaper paying cash

Black_Knight

Is this thread about finance or M3 Vs MS?

Kramer

Black_Knight wrote: »

Is this thread about finance or M3 Vs MS?

What I've garnered from this thread so far:

The S is far too wide.
The 3's boot is useless.
Elon rulez.
PCP is for numpties.

copeyhagen

Kramer wrote: »

What I've garnered from this thread so far:

The S is far too wide.
The 3's boot is useless.
Elon rulez.
PCP is for numpties.

fact im off to buy a golf gte

graememk

Kramer wrote: »

What I've garnered from this thread so far:

The S is far too wide.
The 3's boot is useless.
Elon rulez.
PCP is for numpties.

Model Y will save us all!

embraer170

What about the difference in safety ratings? I would be leaving towards a second hand S, but the 3 scored a significantly higher occupant protection rating in NCAP testing (under more stringent testing conditions).

Model 3
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model-3/37573
Adult occupant: 96%
Child occupant: 86%

Model S
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model-s/7897
Adult occupant: 82%
Child occupant: 77%

MarkN

It’s a much newer design and no doubt Tesla learnt quite a bit about building cars between S and 3.

zg3409

embraer170 wrote: »

What about the difference in safety ratings? I would be leaving towards a second hand S, but the 3 scored a significantly higher occupant protection rating in NCAP testing (under more stringent testing conditions).

Model 3
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model-3/37573
Adult occupant: 96%
Child occupant: 86%

Model S
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model-s/7897
Adult occupant: 82%
Child occupant: 77%

Generally all EVs are safer as there is no big engine up front with nowhere to go in a bad front crash.

Typically physically bigger cars are typically safer as there is more up front to squash before the driver is squashed when compared to say a very small car. However the results above show the smaller model 3 is safer than the larger model S, so there must be more safety improvements in the model 3. Sometimes advanced driver systems count in the safety rating, but I think only if they are standard in all variations, not an option, so for example adaptive cruise control as standard might bring up rating, while a model S with adaptive cruise control option fitted may be safer if tested.

In the real world try not to hit anything solid and hard at high speed, and assume all other road users and pedestrians are not paying any attention to the road. The driver is the biggest factor in vehicle safety.

unkel

zg3409 wrote: »

Sometimes advanced driver systems count in the safety rating

They do. The Euro NCAP confirmed in an email to me last year that new cars can now only get a 5 star safety rating if they have ALL of the below as standard features:

-AEB (autonomous emergency braking)
-ACC (active cruise control)
-LKAS (land keep assist)

In other words, cars that do not have autonomous level 2 driving, will get a 4 star rating at best.

Nedved85

Was going to post this in the other thread about ID3 v model 3 v Niro etc but didn't want to hijack the thread.

I don't have a car just now, so I don't have insurance (obviously). If I was going to go over to the UK to get a car, I'd need insurance to drive it back. From my research so far, liberty would normally accommodate this, but I can't get a quote for a Model 3 from them. 123.ie can't help either. Anyone else ever been in this situation, any tips as to who could help?

Side note, not many insurers are giving quotes for a Model 3 in Ireland itself

slave1

Just get a transporter guy to pick it up for you, looking at around €450 delivered to your door. I’ve done this for my last 3 imports and zero issues

Nedved85

slave1 wrote: »

Just get a transporter guy to pick it up for you, looking at around €450 delivered to your door. I’ve done this for my last 3 imports and zero issues

Hmm OK, I'm fairly apprehensive about that given the value... Will have a think. Cheers

unkel

Any reputable transporter should have insurance covering whatever they transport. Or you could ask a mate who has insurance to "drive other cars" to drive it back over for you / with you. Best check if their cover is comprehensive though. Not always the case.

Model 3 SR+ you're looking for? What do they go for these days in the UK, I presume a 192 car you're after?

Nedved85

Best at the moment is around €43k all in to Ireland for an sr+ with Aero wheels.
Not a massive saving really. It's a saving no doubt..

ELM327

Nedved85 wrote: »

Was going to post this in the other thread about ID3 v model 3 v Niro etc but didn't want to hijack the thread.

I don't have a car just now, so I don't have insurance (obviously). If I was going to go over to the UK to get a car, I'd need insurance to drive it back. From my research so far, liberty would normally accommodate this, but I can't get a quote for a Model 3 from them. 123.ie can't help either. Anyone else ever been in this situation, any tips as to who could help?

Side note, not many insurers are giving quotes for a Model 3 in Ireland itself

Can you not get the plates from where the car is and take out a policy? If you're certain enough on going over, you're certain enough youre buying!?


Otherwise apparently the likes of NVD transport stuff

Nedved85

ELM327 wrote: »

Can you not get the plates from where the car is and take out a policy? If you're certain enough on going over, you're certain enough youre buying!?


Otherwise apparently the likes of NVD transport stuff

It seems insurance companies will not allow a new policy starting on a UK plate, only if transferring from an Irish one temporarily before getting Irish plates.

Liberty would do what I need to do - but they don't insure Model 3's at the moment.

I'm not certain about going over and getting a UK car yet.

unkel

And the mate route? I know it's a big ask as it would take someone the guts of a day of their time, but if a good mate asked me, I would do it for them!

ELM327

To be honest if I couldnt go over myself I'd much prefer to get a reputable insured transporter to get it for me (EG NVD) rather than asking a mate.

Nedved85

I agree Elm. Plus the amount of money being saved versus say the mileage on the used car (The ones available at the moment anyway) / less warranty is not making it that enticing versus a new car. This would be a long term hold so I think a few k in the price difference plus full warranty might just be worth it.

unkel

For just €4k difference (is that it?), I'd rather get a brand new 202 from Ireland than a 192 second hand from the UK. If you're not in a hurry there might be a few second hand Model 3 coming up for sale here in Ireland in January, but there won't be many and I doubt it will save a lot more than bringing one in from the UK now

Nedved85

unkel wrote: »

For just €4k difference (is that it?), I'd rather get a brand new 202 from Ireland than a 192 second hand from the UK. If you're not in a hurry there might be a few second hand Model 3 coming up for sale here in Ireland in January, but there won't be many and I doubt it will save a lot more than bringing one in from the UK now

About €4.5k at best. I think it's not worth it too given the hassle, less warranty etc.

jordan191

they're about 48k new, add extra for non standard paint & or tow bar, so you could end up saving 6-8k if you got one for 42k, and if buying through a company the savings are even more as the company grants of 3800 is now gone

Nedved85

I have studied it and it looks like :

£37500 k at best = €41100 ish
VRT - €1100 ish
Transport - €500 ish

€42.7k all in

5k saving over new 2020.