Pro14 Season 2019-2020

thomond2006

Leinster have their conference in hand. Glasgow are already out of the running for top spot imo after their nightmare start. The Cheetahs good start isn't sustainable and it's going to be interested how they get on with no more home games in the calendar year.

PMC83

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have their conference in hand. Glasgow are already out of the running for top spot imo after their nightmare start. The Cheetahs good start isn't sustainable and it's going to be interested how they get on with no more home games in the calendar year.

Cheetahs were unlucky against Connacht, nearly closed it out!

Could be another long season for the kings, a shame as they care capable of scoring nice trys!

Cookiemunster

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have their conference in hand. Glasgow are already out of the running for top spot imo after their nightmare start. The Cheetahs good start isn't sustainable and it's going to be interested how they get on with no more home games in the calendar year.

I don't know about the Cheetahs. They surprised me last Saturday and would have beaten Connacht without the red card. While as you say they don't have any home games left this year, that means they only be 3 games left to play in 2019. And you also have to remember that they have to play Kings three times as well. I'd wait and see how they do in Wales over the next few weeks before making any predictions.

Squidgy Black

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I don't know about the Cheetahs. They surprised me last Saturday and would have beaten Connacht without the red card. While as you say they don't have any home games left this year, that means they only be 3 games left to play in 2019. And you also have to remember that they have to play Kings three times as well. I'd wait and see how they do in Wales over the next few weeks before making any predictions.

The only thing about the Cheetahs is they're only after changing coaches there a week ago since Smith left for the Italian head coach job, and they're due to lose players when super rugby starts back. They need to keep ticking over and racking up points because I've a feeling they'll start to drop off towards next year and the tail end of the season.

Exclamation Marc

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The only thing about the Cheetahs is they're only after changing coaches there a week ago since Smith left for the Italian head coach job, and they're due to lose players when super rugby starts back. They need to keep ticking over and racking up points because I've a feeling they'll start to drop off towards next year and the tail end of the season.

Do you think there is any sustainable future for the SA teams in the Pro14?

It seems like they have spurts of good results before becoming a secondary concern, like you say. We're into the third year of their inclusion and the Kings have been rooted to the bottom ever since whilst the Cheetahs had a good first year but fell away last year.

I think the only way they'll ever improve sufficiently is if they're given a route into the HC as theyll compete seriously but I don't think they'll ever get that access for a number of reasons.

PMC83

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Do you think there is any sustainable future for the SA teams in the Pro14?

It seems like they have spurts of good results before becoming a secondary concern, like you say. We're into the third year of their inclusion and the Kings have been rooted to the bottom ever since whilst the Cheetahs had a good first year but fell away last year.

I think the only way they'll ever improve sufficiently is if they're given a route into the HC as theyll compete seriously but I don't think they'll ever get that access for a number of reasons.

Agree, they need Heineken cup action. I think the Cheetahs will keep going, decent enough mid table side but I would fear for the kings. They don't seem to have much of a fan base at all.

Would love to see The Sharks or Stormers join, decent teams with a bit more credit in the bank, alas seems unlikely at this stage.

The Lost Sheep

PMC83 wrote: »

Agree, they need Heineken cup action. I think the Cheetahs will keep going, decent enough mid table side but I would fear for the kings. They don't seem to have much of a fan base at all.

Would love to see The Sharks or Stormers join, decent teams with a bit more credit in the bank, alas seems unlikely at this stage.

very unlikely and wouldnt be good imo. South Africans are needed for super rugby to survive and all south African sides or better sides moving from that isnt good for rugby overall.

PMC83

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

very unlikely and wouldnt be good imo. South Africans are needed for super rugby to survive and all south African sides or better sides moving from that isnt good for rugby overall.

Yeah, would certainly not be good for Super Rugby, unless they were replaced.
On a related note I've read a report that the SunWolves were apparently reversing their decision to leave...

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/sunwolves-set-for-super-rugby-return-japan-primed-for-rugby-championship-inclusion-report/

sydthebeat

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The only thing about the Cheetahs is they're only after changing coaches there a week ago since Smith left for the Italian head coach job, and they're due to lose players when super rugby starts back. They need to keep ticking over and racking up points because I've a feeling they'll start to drop off towards next year and the tail end of the season.

so far they are only loosing 3 players to super rugby, but i expect that number to rise a bit the closer we get to february.

The cheetahs won the currie cup this year so that will have put a lot of players onto the radar of the SA super rugby teams.. especially the teams loosing senior players after the RWC.

also. the japanese top league, which players used to compete in for a pay day before the regular SRXV season.. is now clashing fully with super rugby so that now becomes an either/or choice for SA players.... with most senior guys set to choose the pay packet.

sydthebeat

PMC83 wrote: »

Yeah, would certainly not be good for Super Rugby, unless they were replaced.
On a related note I've read a report that the SunWolves were apparently reversing their decision to leave...

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/sunwolves-set-for-super-rugby-return-japan-primed-for-rugby-championship-inclusion-report/

'decision to leave' is a bit disingenuous

'forced to leave due to unrealistic remaining conditions' would be more accurate

PMC83

sydthebeat wrote: »

'decision to leave' is a bit disingenuous

'forced to leave due to unrealistic remaining conditions' would be more accurate

According to the below they refused to pay a participation fee, resulting in them having no other choice but to leave. If the Rugby Pass article is correct then they have either reversed this decision or some other kind of deal has been made.

I don't think it was a case of them being axed like the Western Force.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/385355/sunwolves-to-exit-super-rugby

Zzippy

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have their conference in hand. Glasgow are already out of the running for top spot imo after their nightmare start. The Cheetahs good start isn't sustainable and it's going to be interested how they get on with no more home games in the calendar year.

People said that about Connacht 4 years ago too. I don't think you give the Cheetahs enough credit. They will get a few results on the road - they should have beaten us on Saturday. They play a great brand of rugby, and Pienaar directs their play really well. Losing Ox Niche is a blow alright, but I have a feeling they will be in the hunt for a play-off place at the business end of the season.

sydthebeat

PMC83 wrote: »

According to the below they refused to pay a participation fee, resulting in them having no other choice but to leave. If the Rugby Pass article is correct then they have either reversed this decision or some other kind of deal has been made.

I don't think it was a case of them being axed like the Western Force.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/385355/sunwolves-to-exit-super-rugby

A 9 million dollar fee, per year, that no other team is subject to??

Like I said, forced to leave due to unrealistic remaining conditions.

Japan’s Kyodo news agency said SANZAAR had told the Sunwolves to pay a “non-negotiable” participation fee of about ¥1-billion (US$9 million) a year to stay in Super Rugby.

https://rugby365.com/countries/japan/japan-reveal-super-stand-off-with-sanzaar

PMC83

sydthebeat wrote: »

A 9 million dollar fee, per year, that no other team is subject to??

Like I said, forced to leave due to unrealistic remaining conditions.

Japan’s Kyodo news agency said SANZAAR had told the Sunwolves to pay a “non-negotiable” participation fee of about ¥1-billion (US$9 million) a year to stay in Super Rugby.

https://rugby365.com/countries/japan/japan-reveal-super-stand-off-with-sanzaar

If they have the money and decided not to pay, that's on them. If they wanted to stay, but could't afford the fee, then that's different.
If its “non-negotiable” as you say, and they are now deciding to pay, then they had the money.

I agree it doesn't seem fair, but who knows the reason behind it. Maybe Japanese TV doesn't bring the same revenue as everyone else.

aloooof

PMC83 wrote: »

If they have the money and decided not to pay, that's on them. If they wanted to stay, but could't afford the fee, then that's different.
If its “non-negotiable” as you say, and they are now deciding to pay, then they had the money.

I agree it doesn't seem fair, but who knows the reason behind it. Maybe Japanese TV doesn't bring the same revenue as everyone else.

I think that's a bit too black-and-white; they may have had the money but it doesn't mean it'd have been a good return on investment for them. Given Japan's success in the RWC, they may now be reconsidering that.

Squidgy Black

sydthebeat wrote: »

A 9 million dollar fee, per year, that no other team is subject to??

Like I said, forced to leave due to unrealistic remaining conditions.

Japan’s Kyodo news agency said SANZAAR had told the Sunwolves to pay a “non-negotiable” participation fee of about ¥1-billion (US$9 million) a year to stay in Super Rugby.

https://rugby365.com/countries/japan/japan-reveal-super-stand-off-with-sanzaar

9 million is almost pocket change though Syd for a team if they really want to participate in the tournament. I'd imagine the fee mostly consists of the extra logistics involved due to the travel etc. Unlike the SA teams in the Pro14, the Japanese market isn't really that lucrative for super rugby because most just watch the Top League.

PMC83

aloooof wrote: »

I think that's a bit too black-and-white; they may have had the money but it doesn't mean it'd have been a good return on investment for them. Given Japan's success in the RWC, they may now be reconsidering that.

If they made a choice to stay or go based on financial return, its still their choice at the end of the day. I may not be happy with the interest hikes on my mortgage, but if I can afford to pay them yet decide I'd rather not based on what my neighbours pay, I can't really blame the bank when I get the boot.

All this blame game stuff aside, I really hope they do stay. They had some good results last year and were close to a few mroe upsets, they play exciting stuff.
Also, their games can often be found on Sky Sports Mix on sat morning, which is nice for those of us without a sky sub!

Podge_irl

Squidgy Black wrote: »

9 million is almost pocket change though Syd for a team if they really want to participate in the tournament. I'd imagine the fee mostly consists of the extra logistics involved due to the travel etc. Unlike the SA teams in the Pro14, the Japanese market isn't really that lucrative for super rugby because most just watch the Top League.

9 million is most certainly not pocket change. Where on earth are you getting that idea from?! It's essentially the entire salaries of the playing squad.

Cookiemunster

I had to double check whether I was in the Pro14 thread or not. Isn't there a Super Rugby thread for Super Rugby discussion?

sydthebeat

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I had to double check whether I was in the Pro14 thread or not. Isn't there a Super Rugby thread for Super Rugby discussion?

im acutely aware of that too...

can a mod snip the super rugby posts and throw them into either the super rugby thread or the general rugby thread please, as id like to continue this discussion.

(its actually good having a measured discussion here in the light of the sh!tstorm in other threads)

171170

PMC83 wrote: »

Cheetahs were unlucky against Connacht, nearly closed it out!

Unlucky is one way to describe it. For me, the Cheetahs were mugged by Whitehouse.

thomond2006

Zzippy wrote: »

People said that about Connacht 4 years ago too. I don't think you give the Cheetahs enough credit. They will get a few results on the road - they should have beaten us on Saturday. They play a great brand of rugby, and Pienaar directs their play really well. Losing Ox Niche is a blow alright, but I have a feeling they will be in the hunt for a play-off place at the business end of the season.

If they do keep it going, it would mean Glasgow possibly miss out on the playoffs and Europe which would be nuts. The lopsided nature of the international absences hit home.

PMC83

thomond2006 wrote: »

If they do keep it going, it would mean Glasgow possibly miss out on the playoffs and Europe which would be nuts. The lopsided nature of the international absences hit home.

Dragons looked good against Glasgow! Not sure how many internationals Dragons were missing though.

Zzippy

171170 wrote: »

Unlucky is one way to describe it. For me, the Cheetahs were mugged by Whitehouse.

Apart from getting off two yellow cards for dangerous tackles and having a Connacht try scratched off for a dubious offside, I'd say that's a very astute observation, and I look forward to many more such insightful contributions.

171170

Zzippy wrote: »

Apart from getting off two yellow cards for dangerous tackles and having a Connacht try scratched off for a dubious offside, I'd say that's a very astute observation, and I look forward to many more such insightful contributions.

My sarcasm detector just exploded. I hadn't realised that in this forum one was expected to conform with the opinions of the Moderators.

Ignoring your snideness which, I assume, is due to some personality defect, I take it that you are not in agreement with me. So be it.

Squidgy Black

Glasgow just shut out the King's 50-0 in Scotstoun, you'd have to wonder how viable it is to keep them in the league unless there's some major changes to their setup.

sydthebeat

Four pretty competitive games expected for today

Cardiff under pressure after a poor start against a pretty green munster team.

Im expecting cheetahs on the road to turn over scarlets.. Scarlets are in flux right now and are there for the taking, and if cheetahs want to make the playoffs these are the kind of games they need to take points from. While scarlets form (wwwl) looks OK.. They've beaten a poor warriors away, beaten a Connacht team with a young back line at home, and destroyed a very poor zebre at home. Embra embarrassed them last weekend, and I think this cheetahs can actually be a step up on Edinburgh.

Treviso have a lot of their internationals back to host Edinburgh... And this one is hard to call. But I really like crowleys impact on this treviso side and they can really entertain out wide.

I fancy connacht against ospreys IF they can win the back row battle and get that ball out quick. Interesting to see how Joe unpronounceable goes in his first green start.

Utah_Saint

They have a Munster branch Ref as Ref on the Munster game

and

They have a Leinster branch Ref as Ref on the Leinster game

I'm sure both guys will do a grand job, but it would have seemed easier to swap these guys round?

BakeMeACake

Zzippy wrote:

Apart from getting off two yellow cards for dangerous tackles and having a Connacht try scratched off for a dubious offside, I'd say that's a very astute observation, and I look forward to many more such insightful contributions.

While I agree with this comment I would say the call at the end by Whitehouse to penalize Cheetahs in the scrum when to the ordinary observer the Cheetahs push looked fine could be considered unfair. Whitehouse, more than most, would wreck your head with his total inconsistency which leaves you wondering for what and for which team he is going blow the whistle

Zzippy

BakeMeACake wrote: »

While I agree with this comment I would say the call at the end by Whitehouse to penalize Cheetahs in the scrum when to the ordinary observer the Cheetahs push looked fine could be considered unfair. Whitehouse, more than most, would wreck your head with his total inconsistency which leaves you wondering for what and for which team he is going blow the whistle

Cheetahs loosehead turns inwards and drives across. Saw a ref tweet similar too. Watch it again.