LGBT and Islam

SnakePlissken

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Poster is insulted when one assumes his child is one of two genders, yet continues to assume all white males are christian in a country that in the 2016 census, 78% of the population identified as Catholic

Fixed that important part for you snakey

But as mass attendance statistics point to they're not practicing catholic now are they Timba which completey discredits your tale of this fictional character being assaulted by "christians". I don't believe a word you say of this event, but if it did happen the motive wasn't christianity.

Stop moaning ffs

You’d wonder how much of people identifying as catholics on the last census is in reaction to our growing immigrant/Muslim population?
We all know none of us give a flying eff about the church but we’re not above othering when it comes to it.
See any thread on gays and Muslims in AH for verification of that.

Timberrrrrrrr

SnakePlissken wrote: »

But as mass attendance statistics point to they're not practicing catholic now are they Timba which completey discredits your tale of this fictional character being assaulted by "christians". I don't believe a word you say of this event, but if it did happen the motive wasn't christianity.

Believe what you want, a single fùck is not given, the "fictional character " as you call them is a child of mine, but sure you called me homophobic for how long now? Back on the special list for you snakey, you're vile posts are.not worth another second of my time.

MrFresh

SnakePlissken wrote: »

But as mass attendance statistics point to they're not practicing catholic now are they Timba which completey discredits your tale of this fictional character being assaulted by "christians". I don't believe a word you say of this event, but if it did happen the motive wasn't christianity.

Funny how you don't care about attendance or levels of practice when it's about Muslims.

SnakePlissken

MrFresh wrote: »

SnakePlissken wrote: »

But as mass attendance statistics point to they're not practicing catholic now are they Timba which completey discredits your tale of this fictional character being assaulted by "christians". I don't believe a word you say of this event, but if it did happen the motive wasn't christianity.

Funny how you don't care about attendance or levels of practice when it's about Muslims.

Yes I do, when have I stated otherwise? You're another poster who would be kicked from the debate team very sharpish, can't argue against statistics and empirical data do you throw around insults like a child... bored.

SnakePlissken

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

but sure you called me homophobic for how long now?

Post homophobic tirades expect to be called a homophobe, it's not exactly a hard concept to grasp.

I've been campaigning for LGTB rights for nearly a decade, I've no time for people of your ilk so please do put me on ignore as I've no interest in engaging with your hate.

DrPhilG

Well Timberrrrrrrr you're clearly not going to acknowledge my post or question, so I won't bother continuing the discussion with you. It would have been nice if you would at least have given me a "no comment" rather than leaving me hanging on.

I started this thread with a genuine question. One of the early replies is the one that I think hits the nail on the head. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Timberrrrrrrr (and others) are so blinded by your (understandable in fairness) hatred of the Catholic Church that you would rather condemn it and blame it for what you seem to see as widespread homophobia in Ireland, than to recognise the potential threat of Islam.

The fact that you have tried to blame the attack on your gay child on Christianity, despite there being no indication beyond your own biased guesswork that Christianity had anything to do with it, only reinforces this.

I've read quotes of an 86% "identifying as Catholic" in the last census. Yet Mass attendance figures for catholics and the decline of Church attendance and increase in Church closures for Protestant denominations show that the only area of Christianity that is growing in Ireland is Evangelical and non-denominational Christian churches.

At a guess (and given that your determination about your child's attackers was pure guesswork, I'm sure you can endulge me) I'd say that while over 90% of the country would identify as a particular religion, I suspect that less than 20% are actual regular church attenders, less than 10% actively still consider homosexuality is a sin, and I genuinely don't believe that there are ANY Christian churches in this country who would actively encourage violence against gay people.

You can throw up examples of hate preachers in the US who call for the execution of gays. As despicable as they are, they are thankfully pretty rare and the numbers who follow them are too. For example the infamous Westboro Baptists have less than 40 left in the congregation.

The fact is that on a GLOBAL scale: hatred, discrimination, abuse and violence towards homosexuals is a small and constantly diminishing aspect of Christianity. however again on a global scale, the same attitudes towards homosexuals is a bigger (more so in the east) and ever growing issue.

Aside from the odd lunatic, the general Christian standpoint on homosexuality is "hate the sin, not the sinner". While I can see how that line gets under the skin of gay people because of the sin accusation, the fact remains is that Christianity may preach against homosexuality, but it preaches love for homosexuals.

I'm not aware of any such ethos in Islam. Hardcore Christians by and large will still "love the sinner". Hardcore Muslims, (not just the radical loons) still believe that death is an appropriate punishment.

So this again leads me back to the point I made and the answer I was given. Many posters here have claimed that Christianity is/was/will be more of an issue to homosexuals than Islam. Yet when pressed on it, the only evidence given is the past history of the Catholic Church (which is abonimable) and Timberrrrrrrr's presumption that his/her child's attack had religious motives. (he/she has since denied that but refused to clarify).

The enemy of your enemy is your friend. The problem with that is that once the original enemy fades away, your friend might not be so friendly. Look no further than Birmingham and other places in England for proof.

donaghs

Simplest answer to the thread is to look at the treatment of gay people in Muslim majority countries. That seems to be the outcome when there aren’t enough non-Muslim dissenting voices.

Parts of Turkey and Lebanon had a better reputation. But Lebanon once had a slight majority Christian population, and the demographics have shifting slowly toward the sects of Islam since the mid-century roughly. The combination of Gulf-oil spread sunnism and post-khomenei Shiasm has led to the prevalence of more hardline forms of Islam.

In turkey , Erdogans populist overthrow of the post-ataturk liberal(ish) elites doesn’t bode well for any free thinkers or alternative lifestyles.

Danzy

donaghs wrote: »

Simplest answer to the thread is to look at the treatment of gay people in Muslim majority countries. That seems to be the outcome when there aren’t enough non-Muslim dissenting voices.

Parts of Turkey and Lebanon had a better reputation. But Lebanon once had a slight majority Christian population, and the demographics have shifting slowly toward the sects of Islam since the mid-century roughly. The combination of Gulf-oil spread sunnism and post-khomenei Shiasm has led to the prevalence of more hardline forms of Islam.

In turkey , Erdogans populist overthrow of the post-ataturk liberal(ish) elites doesn’t bode well for any free thinkers or alternative lifestyles.

Syria was one of the more liberal States in the Islamic World.

Assad still had to cancel his plans for cracking down on honour killings due to the strength of reaction against that.

Culture and beliefs matter.

Danzy

DrPhilG wrote: »

Well Timberrrrrrrr you're clearly not going to acknowledge my post or question, so I won't bother continuing the discussion with you. It would have been nice if you would at least have given me a "no comment" rather than leaving me hanging on.

I started this thread with a genuine question. One of the early replies is the one that I think hits the nail on the head. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Timberrrrrrrr (and others) are so blinded by your (understandable in fairness) hatred of the Catholic Church that you would rather condemn it and blame it for what you seem to see as widespread homophobia in Ireland, than to recognise the potential threat of Islam.

The fact that you have tried to blame the attack on your gay child on Christianity, despite there being no indication beyond your own biased guesswork that Christianity had anything to do with it, only reinforces this.

I've read quotes of an 86% "identifying as Catholic" in the last census. Yet Mass attendance figures for catholics and the decline of Church attendance and increase in Church closures for Protestant denominations show that the only area of Christianity that is growing in Ireland is Evangelical and non-denominational Christian churches.

At a guess (and given that your determination about your child's attackers was pure guesswork, I'm sure you can endulge me) I'd say that while over 90% of the country would identify as a particular religion, I suspect that less than 20% are actual regular church attenders, less than 10% actively still consider homosexuality is a sin, and I genuinely don't believe that there are ANY Christian churches in this country who would actively encourage violence against gay people.

You can throw up examples of hate preachers in the US who call for the execution of gays. As despicable as they are, they are thankfully pretty rare and the numbers who follow them are too. For example the infamous Westboro Baptists have less than 40 left in the congregation.

The fact is that on a GLOBAL scale: hatred, discrimination, abuse and violence towards homosexuals is a small and constantly diminishing aspect of Christianity. however again on a global scale, the same attitudes towards homosexuals is a bigger (more so in the east) and ever growing issue.

Aside from the odd lunatic, the general Christian standpoint on homosexuality is "hate the sin, not the sinner". While I can see how that line gets under the skin of gay people because of the sin accusation, the fact remains is that Christianity may preach against homosexuality, but it preaches love for homosexuals.

I'm not aware of any such ethos in Islam. Hardcore Christians by and large will still "love the sinner". Hardcore Muslims, (not just the radical loons) still believe that death is an appropriate punishment.

So this again leads me back to the point I made and the answer I was given. Many posters here have claimed that Christianity is/was/will be more of an issue to homosexuals than Islam. Yet when pressed on it, the only evidence given is the past history of the Catholic Church (which is abonimable) and Timberrrrrrrr's presumption that his/her child's attack had religious motives. (he/she has since denied that but refused to clarify).

The enemy of your enemy is your friend. The problem with that is that once the original enemy fades away, your friend might not be so friendly. Look no further than Birmingham and other places in England for proof.

1950s Irish Catholism, Archbishop McQuaid etc would be radical progressives in most Islamic States.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wasn’t suggesting that parents be given completely free reign in choosing what is best for their own children.

Not a belief I would share entirely but not reject entirely either. Quite often the people closest to you _can_ be the worst people for knowing what is best for you. Especially with children. As - especially around sexual issues for example - ones parents are often the _last_ ones we inform of what is going on with us in our life. So very often our peers or more distant relatives can know better than our own parents.

I would therefore never make the assumption the parents are the ones who know best. Either at an individual level - where I would be more prone to examine the history of my interactions with my children on a given topic before I estimate how likely I am to be the best person to know what is best for them on that given topic - or at social level where we can probably compile data on what has historically shown to be best left to the parents to know what is best - and what has not.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Those would really be extreme examples though as opposed to what we’re talking about here which is a conflict of cultural values.

As I pointed out though - that was not at all what I was talking about when I replied to you. We just ended up there - mostly at your behest. All I was talking about was how representative the placards in question were of those concerns. Which I still do not think was a great representation at all. I would say the opposite in fact.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m not referring to any studies specifically when I mentioned the African population of both Muslims and Christians

So when you claimed the even split this was on no actual data? So we can not verify the split - or unpack what it might actually consist of?

Oh well - not a very useful citation then I suppose.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t think condemnation of homosexuality really a product of any specific religion, but rather one of culture, and religions tapped into that and formed their ideas around it

In fairness that is likely true but is a general thing religion tends to do with all the morality it pushes. It goes both ways!

For example - it is quite often claimed by theists that religion is somehow a source of morality - required for morality - adds some objectivity to morality - a necessary guide to morality - and similar such claims.

Whereas any time I look - past or present - all any religion ever appears to do is distill the morality around already at the time in such a way as to appeal to the most - or at least avoid putting off the most - possible customers.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think the correlation between the majority of people who have issues with homosexuality and are also either Christian or Muslim is simply a question of numbers as opposed to the idea that they condemn homosexuality or homosexuals because an old book tells them to.

Which is hard to assess as a claim given you are making it without any actual numbers or values in relation to the supposed correlation. It also does not explore the difference between a supposed "equal split" and any cultural dominance of a religion for example. Such as comparing the levels of acceptance of homosexuality in cultures with Christian dominance - the US, UK, Ireland for example - and countries with a Muslim dominance.

To assess the differing effects of culture as opposed to religion I would suggest not looking only at even split countries - but countries with a given religion dominant - secularism dominant - and a few other combinations besides.

Annasopra

jmreire wrote: »

In some Country's, Yes, they are accepted, but in other's, no. At least not openly. It's not a case of world wide acceptance.

It isnt a case of all muslims throwing all gay men off rooves either despite the hopes and prayers of some here.

Personally I won't ever buy into this mantra that I am a gay man and that all muslims want to throw me off a roof so therefore I must hate all Muslims.

It really is quite disgusting that far right people abuse LGBT rights by using legitimate concerns caused by stigma, societal homophobia and transphobia and hate crime to stigmatise and scapegoat all Muslims in an ideology of hatred. It is using and abusing the human rights of one group in order to oppress the human rights of another group. So no thanks I won't ever let this ideological hatred weaponise me and my sexual orientation. Thankfully a lot of other LGBT can see through this disgusting vile divisive hateful ideology too.

Stop moaning ffs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It isnt a case of all muslims throwing all gay men off rooves either despite the hopes and prayers of some here.

Personally I won't ever buy into this mantra that I am a gay man and that all muslims want to throw me off a roof so therefore I must hate all Muslims.

It really is quit disgusting that far right people abuse LGBT rights by using legitimate concerns caused by stigma, societal homophobia and transphobia and hate crime to stigmatise and scapegoat all Muslims in an ideology of hatred. It is using and abusing the human rights of one group in order to oppress the human rights of another group. So no thanks I won't ever let this ideological hatred weaponise me and my sexual orientation. Thankfully a lot of other LGBT can see through this disgusting vile divisive hateful ideology too.

Well said.

The Venn diagram of posters on boards complaining about gays in one thread and complaining about Muslims in another, is almost a perfect circle on boards.
That tells its own tale. But it’s there for all to see.

DrPhilG

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Personally I won't ever buy into this mantra that I am a gay man and that all muslims want to throw me off a roof so therefore I must hate all Muslims.

I certainly haven't suggested anything of the sort here, and I don't think that even the more deliberately provocative posters have either.

Stop moaning ffs

DrPhilG wrote: »

I certainly haven't suggested anything of the sort here, and I don't think that even the more deliberately provocative posters have either.

They have clearly demonstrated they have a serious problem with Muslims, across several threads, and a serious problem with gays in other threads,
And somehow a boiling point in this thread conflating their problems with the two groups.
Effectively, many people on boards hate Muslims and de gays.
If they’re even real people

Annasopra

DrPhilG wrote: »

I certainly haven't suggested anything of the sort here, and I don't think that even the more deliberately provocative posters have either.

Well of course it won't be openly said. A lot of what is said here is skirting just below the radar of what mods will allow. But this really is the basis of what's going on; More or less trying to tell lgbt people we must hate all Muslims and using LGBT people and women as weapons to spread hateful ideology about and against Muslims.

DrPhilG

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

They have clearly demonstrated they have a serious problem with Muslims, across several threads, and a serious problem with gays in other threads,
And somehow a boiling point in this thread conflating their problems with the two groups.
Effectively, many people on boards hate Muslims and de gays.
If they’re even real people

Well I can't speak for others then, only myself.

I don't spend as much time as others in AH so I can't comment although I have suspected that some on the opposite side of your argument have been trolling, and I have reported a few of them like the "friendly nazi" etc.

DrPhilG

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well of course it won't be openly said. A lot of what is said here is skirting just below the radar of what mods will allow. But this really is the basis of what's going on; More or less trying to tell lgbt people we must hate all Muslims and using LGBT people and women as weapons to spread hateful ideology about and against Muslims.

Well as the thread starter that was certainly not my intention. It was an honest question.

Annasopra

DrPhilG wrote: »

Well as the thread starter that was certainly not my intention. It was an honest question.

Fair enough. I think from my point of view a lot of LGBT people stand with Muslims against hatred and hateful ideology because they know what the experience is like. Quite simple really. LGBT people have been targets of far right hate and far right hateful ideology. They recognise in recent years that Muslims are now the targets of far right hate and far right hateful ideology so they stand in solidarity with them. Many LGBT people also reject LGBT rights being weaponised against Muslims in this hateful ideology and also reject the overly simplistic analysis that LGBT people can't be Muslims or Muslims can't be LGBT. There's my honest answer to your question.

SnakePlissken

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

More or less trying to tell lgbt people we must hate all Muslims and using LGBT people and women as weapons to spread hateful ideology about and against Muslims.

I don't believe I've ever seen any poster tell anyone to hate Muslims, I personally have been critical of Islam on this thread and a number of others relating to same yet I don't hate Muslims, nor have I ever stated such, I do however hate any and all ideologies that wish to see homosexuality criminalized. That a majority of UK Muslims, including second and third generation Brits, believe being gay should be made illegal is deeply concerning, yet this homophobia and intolerance will not be addressed for as long as there are those who seek to close down discussion on Islam's ideologies at all costs.

I now await one of the usual suspects to selectively quote my post so to avoid the discussion.

SnakePlissken

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

LGBT people have been targets of far right hate and far right hateful ideology.

Is Islam not a far-right hateful ideology though?

James Brown

I'm confused. I thought the left were hypocrites for not allowing right wing extremists speak. Now the LGBT folk are for calling for equality for all? It's hard to keep track of whats upsetting right wing snowflakes these days.

SnakePlissken

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'm confused.

Joey doesn't speak for everyone in the LGTB community believe me, many people I know are incredibly concerned about the rights they and their supporters fought for being eroded by a bigoted ideology such as what is currently happening in Turkey, once a bastion of gay rights in the east.... but they're just snowflakes I guess.

James Brown

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Joey doesn't speak for everyone in the LGTB community believe me, many people I know are incredibly concerned about the rights they and their supporters fought for being eroded by a bigoted ideology such as what is currently happening in Turkey, once a bastion of gay rights in the east.... but they're just snowflakes I guess.

But the OP references a banner against Islamophobia. We have Jews for Jesus, religious types of varying colour supporting gays. People are complex is all.
Of course people should be concerned about people who hate them. Very nice for the holders of the banner to be concerned about a group they likely are not affiliated with.

Stop moaning ffs

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I don't believe I've ever seen any poster tell anyone to hate Muslims, I personally have been critical of Islam on this thread and a number of others relating to same yet I don't hate Muslims, nor have I ever stated such, I do however hate any and all ideologies that wish to see homosexuality criminalized. That a majority of UK Muslims, including second and third generation Brits, believe being gay should be made illegal is deeply concerning, yet this homophobia and intolerance will not be addressed for as long as there are those who seek to close down discussion on Islam's ideologies at all costs.

I now await one of the usual suspects to selectively quote my post so to avoid the discussion.

Can you point me to any platform those muslims are given in the uk or here to spout that nonsense?
They arent given one.

The framework allows nutjobs like Gemma o Doherty a hole to run for office.
A lazy desperate few journalists will retweet her nonsense mocking her.
That’s all that’s platform shell ever get.

A Muslim candidate running in a local election even being totally moderate on lgbt issues and respectful of the law as it stands with relation to marriage equality wouldn’t even get on the ballot. And there’s not one party that would take them on. And thankfully, nobody would vote for them.

Johnny boards member who ‘doesnt Hate the gays BUT ‘ (and there’s are many of them) will spout all day on boards. He will never vote for the local candidate shouting down gay rights or reproductive rights if it’s a Muslim candidate doing it.
It just Wont happen.

SnakePlissken

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I don't believe I've ever seen any poster tell anyone to hate Muslims, I personally have been critical of Islam on this thread and a number of others relating to same yet I don't hate Muslims, nor have I ever stated such, I do however hate any and all ideologies that wish to see homosexuality criminalized. That a majority of UK Muslims, including second and third generation Brits, believe being gay should be made illegal is deeply concerning, yet this homophobia and intolerance will not be addressed for as long as there are those who seek to close down discussion on Islam's ideologies at all costs.

I now await one of the usual suspects to selectively quote my post so to avoid the discussion.

Can you point me to any platform those muslims are given in the uk or here to spout that nonsense?
They arent given one.
.

Why ask a question if you're immediately going to answer it yourself without allowing others to respond?


https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjTzfeVn_HiAhVJUhUIHQo3CAUQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/04/birmingham-school-stops-lgbt-lessons-after-parent-protests&psig=AOvVaw1HBkaCZIdaLHFZih5ERud5&ust=1560885882877251

When a school has to reverse it's decision to teach about LGTB rights due to the blockade of the school by dozens of vile homophobes, it's clear these bigots are allowed a bigger platform than I'm comfortable with.

MrFresh

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Why ask a question if you're immediately going to answer it yourself without allowing others to respond?


When a school has to reverse it's decision to teach about LGTB rights due to the blockade of the school by dozens of vile homophobes, it's clear these bigots are allowed a bigger platform than I'm comfortable with.

They didn't have to, they chose to.

_blaaz

SnakePlissken wrote: »

When a school has to reverse it's decision to teach about LGTB rights due to the blockade of the school by dozens of vile homophobes, it's clear these bigots are allowed a bigger platform than I'm comfortable with.

Id be wary of your worldview on many issues...but your bang on right here

Stop moaning ffs

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Why ask a question if you're immediately going to answer it yourself without allowing others to respond?


https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjTzfeVn_HiAhVJUhUIHQo3CAUQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Feducation%2F2019%2Fmar%2F04%2Fbirmingham-school-stops-lgbt-lessons-after-parent-protests&psig=AOvVaw1HBkaCZIdaLHFZih5ERud5&ust=1560885882877251

When a school has to reverse it's decision to teach about LGTB rights due to the blockade of the school by dozens of vile homophobes, it's clear these bigots are allowed a bigger platform than I'm comfortable with.

You’re presumably linking to that story in the uk.

We’re in a different country. It doesn’t apply to us. Totally different culture.

I would have clicked your link but it was an endless paragraph of letters and waffle. Not clickable.

magma69

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Can you point me to any platform those muslims are given in the uk or here to spout that nonsense?
They arent given one.

The framework allows nutjobs like Gemma o Doherty a hole to run for office.
A lazy desperate few journalists will retweet her nonsense mocking her.
That’s all that’s platform shell ever get.

A Muslim candidate running in a local election even being totally moderate on lgbt issues and respectful of the law as it stands with relation to marriage equality wouldn’t even get on the ballot. And there’s not one party that would take them on. And thankfully, nobody would vote for them.

Johnny boards member who ‘doesnt Hate the gays BUT ‘ (and there’s are many of them) will spout all day on boards. He will never vote for the local candidate shouting down gay rights or reproductive rights if it’s a Muslim candidate doing it.
It just Wont happen.

A Muslim candidate not only made it onto the ballot but won in the Limerick City West constituency. No idea what his views are on LGBT rights but there you go.