Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Fr Tod Umptious

murphaph wrote: »

Agree. I mean it seems they are content to sleepwalk into oblivion.

Perhaps the best thing is for the BXP/Tories to target leave Labour seats and get the DUP out of the equation, allowing an Irish sea border and GB leaving "properly", to seek an FTA like Canada with NI effectively remaining in the EU.

That's a good idea, all of this would be sorted back in Dec 2017 had the DUP not been around.

RobMc59

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You look at the protestors in Hong Kong and you can only conclude that the young people of England and Wales are utterly spineless, brow beaten into submission and completely compliant. There is no remain campaign, no active protest. Where is the civil disobedience and dissent?! The freedom to travel and work freely is about to be eroded; the right to a decent well paying job is under severe threat. Smart knowing quips on twittter won’t cut it lads, sorry.

Looking at this attached link the protestors appear to prefer British administration.
https://globalnews.ca/video/5465241/protesters-hang-union-jack-flag-inside-hong-kong-legislature

Fr Tod Umptious

Experience_day wrote: »

Does the other way cut it as well? As I could imagine a bunch of very aggrieved people perceiving that their voice is completely ignored by elites in the capital. This was our vote, they are not implementing it etc etc





The fact is that the vote leave side against all the odds won. The opinion polls show the country has accepted that (whether or not it's a good idea is another matter....) so it should be implemented. If they come crawling back, that's all well and good but at least they carried out the will of the people.


And also why would you want civil unrest? No one wins from that..

Also because leaving the EU and having different work rights and food standards is not exactly the same as being ruled by a single party totalitarian state with a history of human rights abuses.

McGiver

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1162101456612339712?s=19
Ken Clarke predicted all the issues we have seen with blanc cheque referendum in 2015. He is a true politician and leader. And should be an interim PM in GNU. Respect, as much as I despise the Tories otherwise.

Harry Palmr

Oh dear, we're stocking pilling in Ireland. 96% of capacity in use in Dublin area and not enough warehousing as none of any scale has been built since the crash. One suspects a fair bit of this is of course needless.

LuckyLloyd

Experience_day wrote: »

No that is the road to anarchy. You're essentially saying older people have less right/validity to vote, even though they helped shape the country. Every person has one vote and they are all valued the same.

Anarchy? You’re on the road to something if No Deal, something not countenanced during the referendum campaign in 2016, is successfully twisted as the ‘will of the people’. No Deal was never given a democratic mandate and on that basis the young people of England should be loudly and physically protesting the current direction of travel.

Experience_day wrote: »

I was referring to the fact that Wales voted to leave..

And I was referring to the fact that just because England and Wales voted to leave, it is not the responsibility of nationalist parties in Wales, NI and Scotland to solve the issues created as a result of that decision. The Conservative Government in Westminster need to provide solutions.

Stop moaning ffs

McGiver wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1162101456612339712?s=19
Ken Clarke predicted all the issues we have seen with blanc cheque referendum in 2015. He is a true politician and leader. And should be an interim PM in GNU. Respect, as much as I despise the Tories otherwise.

David Lammy was on LBC yesterday covering for o brien and was asked about why can’t Clarke be caretaker PM, surely everyone would support that, and he said Clarke has a great many enemies within the Tories themselves not to mention within labour. He didn’t elaborate but he said it’s highly unlikely he’d be chosen for the role.

McGiver

Swinson has made a slight u-turn and offered to meet Corbyn.
If he says no then it's clearly not a statesman's move invalidating his claim to be the interim PM.

https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/1162037781360795649?s=19

McGiver

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

McGiver wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1162101456612339712?s=19
Ken Clarke predicted all the issues we have seen with blanc cheque referendum in 2015. He is a true politician and leader. And should be an interim PM in GNU. Respect, as much as I despise the Tories otherwise.

David Lammy was on LBC yesterday covering for o brien and was asked about why can’t Clarke be caretaker PM, surely everyone would support that, and he said Clarke has a great many enemies within the Tories themselves not to mention within labour. He didn’t elaborate but he said it’s highly unlikely he’d be chosen for the role.

Politics is the art of compromises. If they can't compromise they aren't politicians. Their system is broken.
Independent MP or LD MP would suit better in my opinion, both Tory and Labour options don't work because of the tribalism.

LuckyLloyd

RobMc59 wrote: »

Looking at this attached link the protestors appear to prefer British administration.
https://globalnews.ca/video/5465241/protesters-hang-union-jack-flag-inside-hong-kong-legislature

And?

Stop moaning ffs

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And?

Didn’t that ship literally sail in 97?

Valhallapt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You look at the protestors in Hong Kong and you can only conclude that the young people of England and Wales are utterly spineless, brow beaten into submission and completely compliant. There is no remain campaign, no active protest. Where is the civil disobedience and dissent?! The freedom to travel and work freely is about to be eroded; the right to a decent well paying job is under severe threat. Smart knowing quips on twittter won’t cut it lads, sorry.

Decades of under investment in education. Plus they have a tendency to teach only the benefits of empire, contrast this with German students who get taught the brutal truth of their history.

Get a bunch of English 20 somethings, majority of them won’t be able to name 2 cabinet ministers, many won’t know if Ireland is or isn’t part of the UK. But they could name every player in the premier league, and every contestant on love island. So they’re not stupid, in fact there intelligent just brainwashed by a biased education system to keep the etonian boys in charge.

ArmaniJeanss

Experience_day wrote: »

No that is the road to anarchy. You're essentially saying older people have less right/validity to vote, even though they helped shape the country. Every person has one vote and they are all valued the same.

Anarchy is needed. I'm still shocked that here hasn't been major protests on university campus.
This years intake were what 14,15 years old when the vote took place. Yet there seems no hint that they realise what has been taken from them, and how if they mobilised they could create a movement that would be really difficult to argue against.

L1011

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Didn’t that ship literally sail in 97?

1984 was when the transfer was agreed and there was no coming back after then.

johnnyskeleton

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Anarchy is needed. I'm still shocked that here hasn't been major protests on university campus.
This years intake were what 14,15 years old when the vote took place. Yet there seems no hint that they realise what has been taken from them, and how if they mobilised they could create a movement that would be really difficult to argue against.

Possibly they realise that a brexit stopped will result in protests from pro-Brexit people, and the feeling among many moderate remain voters is to let it happen and then say I told you so.

Perhaps they think that if its a mistake they can rejoin without any problems, without realising that they will have to agree to the Lisbon terms. No rebate, no special treatment, join the euro when ready, join schengen. They will never accept such terms and thats before getting into any other EU state objecting to their rejoining

J Mysterio

McGiver wrote: »

Swinson has made a slight u-turn and offered to meet Corbyn.
If he says no then it's clearly not a statesman's move invalidating his claim to be the interim PM.

https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/1162037781360795649?s=19

More a dramatic veering 180 then a slight u-turn, but interesting development.

Stop moaning ffs

J Mysterio wrote: »

More a dramatic veering 180 then a slight u-turn, but interesting development.

All day yesterday Online i was seeing people in brexit groups railing against the Lib Dem’s saying they can’t be trusted. It’s ramped up to 11 this morning after this. Nobody seems to trust them at all.

murphaph

I think Swinson is being pragmatic. She stated the obvious (perhaps a little too publicly) yesterday that Corbyn is toxic to too many to have a chance of becoming caretaker PM. She realised later in the day that she could have been more diplomatic and has agreed to meet him, where she will tell him in private the exact same thing and she will be right. Corbyn needs to be made to understand that his world view is not shared by most MPs (or UK voters IMO).

I think the caretaker PM should be from Labour however, to sweeten the pill of their leader not becoming PM. That would be fair I think.

Swinson could have handled things better yesterday, but she is trying to row back rather than stubbornly hold her position, which is to be admired.

That's if any of this caretaker PM stuff can fly at all. I think it's just as likely they'll go over the cliff edge arguing among themselves.

lawred2

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

All day yesterday Online i was seeing people in brexit groups railing against the Lib Dem’s saying they can’t be trusted. It’s ramped up to 11 this morning after this. Nobody seems to trust them at all.

why would the opinions of people in the Brexit groups on anyone anti Brexit matter?

I would have thought that their defacto position was one of distrust!?

FrancieBrady

We are almost at Brexit Discussion Thread X and we are still a 28 nation 'union'.

Who's betting that the thread finishes that way?

LuckyLloyd

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Anarchy is needed. I'm still shocked that here hasn't been major protests on university campus.
This years intake were what 14,15 years old when the vote took place. Yet there seems no hint that they realise what has been taken from them, and how if they mobilised they could create a movement that would be really difficult to argue against.

It’s the great shame. If students mobilised properly they could have huge capacity to influence the political debate

Stop moaning ffs

lawred2 wrote: »

why would the opinions of people in the Brexit groups on anyone anti Brexit matter?

I would have thought that their defacto position was one of distrust!?

Should have phrased that better. They’re just groups like this thread with discussions and links etc. Predominantly populated by Brits. But leavers and remainers both sides don’t seem to trust the libs

BonnieSituation

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Oh dear, we're stocking pilling in Ireland. 96% of capacity in use in Dublin area and not enough warehousing as none of any scale has been built since the crash. One suspects a fair bit of this is of course needless.

Links please.

trellheim

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It is an English problem requiring an English solution, nothing to do with SF, nor the SNP, nor Welsh nationalists. I expect MPs in Westminster to do their duty to their constituents, nothing more nothing less. SF do not have a mandate to go to parliament, and they bear no responsibility for Brexit. That’s it.

But it isn't . It's an all-UK problem thats going to affect Ireland for donkeys years to come.

Allowing other parties to abdicate responsibility is wrong too. Just because they did not vote for or encourage it does not absolve them of a role in easing its impact or finding a solution for their constituents, who elected them. Just because - for example - SF - are abstentionists does not in any way stop them helping to find solutions. This applies to all political parties across the united kingdom, not merely SF . You can see the results of this writ large with Labour trying to do anything else for the last couple of years but now and only finally realising some element of unity is required.

Treating Brexit as GB or English only is a catastrophic mistake.

lawred2

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Should have phrased that better. They’re just groups like this thread with discussions and links etc. Predominantly populated by Brits. But leavers and remainers both sides don’t seem to trust the libs

ah ok I get you

lawred2

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Oh dear, we're stocking pilling in Ireland. 96% of capacity in use in Dublin area and not enough warehousing as none of any scale has been built since the crash. One suspects a fair bit of this is of course needless.

first I've heard of that

robinph

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It’s the great shame. If students mobilised properly they could have huge capacity to influence the political debate

New term starts soon, no exams for a while, new student intake of motivated young people. If anything is going to happen with them then September-October is the perfect time for it.

As for why people are protesting in Hong Kong but not the UK. In Hong Kong there is the genuine current threat to peoples liberty. In the UK there is a vague notion of a threat to your potential livelihood at some unknown point in the future but as yet nobody has decided what that will be or how because nobody still has any idea of what will happen when, if at all.

If there was a decent opposition that had an idea of what shouldn't be happening then they would be able to rile people up to protest, but as Corbyn doesn't know what he wants (other than his picture on the side of the staircase in No10, which is basically all Johnson was after as well) there isn't any anti-Brexit movement to pile in behind.

trellheim

Miliband in a Standard Article

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/the-johnsoncorbyn-double-act-is-no-joke-it-threatens-britain-a4213926.html


Well pointed out that the UK is currently running the Blazing Saddles defence "threaten, as the new Sheriff, to shoot yourself .... nobody moves or the black guy gets it!"

J Mysterio

Very good stuff.

I liked David Miliband well enough and he should have been Labour leader, not his snivelling back-stabbing little brother.

Imreoir2

murphaph wrote: »

I think Swinson is being pragmatic. She stated the obvious (perhaps a little too publicly) yesterday that Corbyn is toxic to too many to have a chance of becoming caretaker PM. She realised later in the day that she could have been more diplomatic and has agreed to meet him, where she will tell him in private the exact same thing and she will be right. Corbyn needs to be made to understand that his world view is not shared by most MPs (or UK voters IMO).

I think the caretaker PM should be from Labour however, to sweeten the pill of their leader not becoming PM. That would be fair I think.

Swinson could have handled things better yesterday, but she is trying to row back rather than stubbornly hold her position, which is to be admired.

That's if any of this caretaker PM stuff can fly at all. I think it's just as likely they'll go over the cliff edge arguing among themselves.

Corbyn wont want to be replaced as leader of the Labour party, care taker arangement or not he will want to take Labour into the next GE and hope to secure enough support to implement his programm. Allowing another Labour MP to be installed as Caretaker PM would undermine him as leader. If he agrees to anyone other than himself being installed it would probably have to be a non-entity. An independant or someone from one of the smaller parties.