Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

looksee

The petition to the UK parliament to revoke article 50 expires in 5 days time. It got to around 6 million votes by March but does not seem to have gathered much more since, as though all protest died.

The Government response to the petition included the following:

It remains the Government’s firm policy not to revoke Article 50. We will honour the outcome of the 2016 referendum and work to deliver an exit which benefits everyone, whether they voted to Leave or to Remain.

Revoking Article 50, and thereby remaining in the European Union, would undermine both our democracy and the trust that millions of voters have placed in Government.

The Government acknowledges the considerable number of people who have signed this petition. However, close to three quarters of the electorate took part in the 2016 referendum, trusting that the result would be respected. This Government wrote to every household prior to the referendum, promising that the outcome of the referendum would be implemented. 17.4 million people then voted to leave the European Union, providing the biggest democratic mandate for any course of action ever directed at UK Government.

Does anyone have any idea why there has been no legal objection to the claim that there was a democratic mandate, when in fact it was a very badly put together referendum, and was never supposed to be legally binding. Is there any mechanism for legal input?

Also, why has the remain side gone so quiet, there doesn't seem to be any fight at all?

Stop moaning ffs

That’s new.

What does it entail?

prawnsambo

54&56 wrote: »

I don't understand what this means

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That’s new.

What does it entail?

Assume you're both asking about that tweet I posted. It doesn't mean a whole lot really. The commencement order puts the Withdrawal Act into force which basically repeals the legislation that gives force to the UK's membership of the EU. In other words they are doing the statutory housekeeping that would have to be done if they left on the 31st October. In advance. But it only comes into force on that date. And of course can be reversed. It's for show. But will look suitably brexity for those who care about such things. More election posturing really.

trellheim

Correct. Commencement order. There will be a raft of these just to up the pressure on little old ireland.

However the HoC can repeal them all since it is sovereign

BonnieSituation

trellheim wrote: »

Brexit may well do the opposite and make it worse for NI

The real issue I have is your second point - How on earth is it purely English ? NI is part of the UK as I am sure you know better than I , but pretending its nothing to do with NI is wrong in my view.

Brexit is an English Nationalist "clusterfúck". I mean, as a regular to this thread I would have thought you would have gotten the inference I was making. To concentrate then on the word "purely" and ignore everything else, I mean, cmon.

Bit cynical

looksee wrote: »

Does anyone have any idea why there has been no legal objection to the claim that there was a democratic mandate, when in fact it was a very badly put together referendum, and was never supposed to be legally binding. Is there any mechanism for legal input?

However the issue of whether or not there is a mandate is unrelated to the fact the referendum was not legally binding.

trellheim

doesnt matter 400 odd of the HoC voted for A50 , thus turning it into reality. TM invoked A50 on that basis

Strazdas

trellheim wrote: »

doesnt matter 400 odd of the HoC voted for A50 , thus turning it into reality. TM invoked A50 on that basis

A massive blunder by Corbyn. He would have been well within his rights to have Labour vote against it (as the Lib Dems and SNP did).

joeysoap

Except he agreed with it, so why vote against it?

MrMusician18

Joe_ Public wrote: »

"This isn't about personalities," Jo Swinson said in her speech. Could have fooled me, to be honest. She's made herself look very petty and foolish today imo. Maybe Corbyn isn't the person to lead that emergency government or whatever its called (i resist the national unity term on the basis it is hardly likely to have many brexiteers in it), but to instantly dismiss it was wrong. None of the conservative MPs who were written have done so afaik, some of them seem willing to meet the LOTO and actually discuss it.

I know it's very easy to dump on Corbyn and his apparent brexit ambivalence, but i personally dont see why Swinson and the Lib Dems should get a free pass purely on the basis they have an uncomplicated remain position. Look how she prevaricates whenever it's put to her about accepting another leave vote in a second referendum. I'm not sure how you can begin to talk about "unity" when that is your position, however weak and unprincipled you think Corbyns play-both-sides strategy might be.

"Never underestimate the Tories and never over estimate the Lib Dems" - Tony Blair

Can't say he was wrong.

Strazdas

looksee wrote: »

The petition to the UK parliament to revoke article 50 expires in 5 days time. It got to around 6 million votes by March but does not seem to have gathered much more since, as though all protest died.

The Government response to the petition included the following:



Does anyone have any idea why there has been no legal objection to the claim that there was a democratic mandate, when in fact it was a very badly put together referendum, and was never supposed to be legally binding. Is there any mechanism for legal input?

Also, why has the remain side gone so quiet, there doesn't seem to be any fight at all?

Eminent lawyers have said had the referendum been binding, it would have been thrown out by the courts as there were so many irregularites.

The UK is going to hell in a handcart over a glorified opinion poll.

20silkcut

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So SF are responsible for the fractured relationships on these islands?

Nationalists have a voice in the process. They vote for SF "BECAUSE" of their abstentionist policy. That IS their voice. Why does this need to be repeated ad nauseam?

How is their vote wasted? Are you saying you know better?

The mindset is very simple. Lots of Nationalists in the north vote for SF. SF not taking their seats in Westminster is part of the reason that they vote for SF. If SF were to stand down or take the Oath they would destroy themselves.

Lots of Nationalists see Brexit as something that will bring a UI closer. Why get involved in a purely English clusterfúck? Have you not seen just how much Scotland have been sidelined? What makes you think that SF's 7 votes are gonna help anything? They will not get to use them votes in a vacuum.

You would not be too cock-a-hoop with reuniting with them? Who are "they"?

Lose the patronising attitude and brush up on the nuance in play here.

Britain has made this mess. It's not up to Ireland or Irish nationalism to help them fix it.

I was up in crossmaglen recently and saw anti brexit signs at every crossroads highlighting the damage a hard brexit will do to that area. I presume a lot of people in this area will vote for abstensionism Sinn Féin candidates in any upcoming election. I cannot understand that . Call me a simpleton call me a partitionist call me patronizing call me what you want. To me that just makes no sense.

20silkcut

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And it only gets a paralysed and chaotic parliament over one hurdle of many.

It really is a crisis for the UK (I would narrow it to Britain actually) to sort out...nobody else.

If we are expecting MPs on the mainland UK to hold their nose and perform parliamentary acrobatics it should not be a massive leap to expect Sinn Fein politicians to do the same.
Why should they be exempt from sacrifice to prevent the madness of a no deal brexit?

Professor Moriarty

20silkcut wrote: »

If we are expecting MPs on the mainland to hold their nose and perform parliamentary acrobatics it should not be a massive leap to expect Sinn Fein politicians to do the same.

Mainland? Do you mean continental Europe?

20silkcut

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Mainland? Do you mean continental Europe?

The mainland UK. Lib dems/ Labour/soft Tory’s et al

CelticRambler

20silkcut wrote: »

The mainland UK. Lib dems/ Labour/soft Tory’s et al

So you mean England, where those political tribes fight amongst themselves and drag the other three constituent countries into their quagmire regardless of what the people or parties in those other countries want. The concept of a "mainland" UK is as nonsensical as a crash-out Brexit being the logical implementation a non-binding, non-specific referendum question.

LuckyLloyd

You look at the protestors in Hong Kong and you can only conclude that the young people of England and Wales are utterly spineless, brow beaten into submission and completely compliant. There is no remain campaign, no active protest. Where is the civil disobedience and dissent?! The freedom to travel and work freely is about to be eroded; the right to a decent well paying job is under severe threat. Smart knowing quips on twittter won’t cut it lads, sorry.

LuckyLloyd

20silkcut wrote: »

If we are expecting MPs on the mainland UK to hold their nose and perform parliamentary acrobatics it should not be a massive leap to expect Sinn Fein politicians to do the same.
Why should they be exempt from sacrifice to prevent the madness of a no deal brexit?

It is an English problem requiring an English solution, nothing to do with SF, nor the SNP, nor Welsh nationalists. I expect MPs in Westminster to do their duty to their constituents, nothing more nothing less. SF do not have a mandate to go to parliament, and they bear no responsibility for Brexit. That’s it.

Experience_day

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You look at the protestors in Hong Kong and you can only conclude that the young people of England and Wales are utterly spineless, brow beaten into submission and completely compliant. There is no remain campaign, no active protest. Where is the civil disobedience and dissent?! The freedom to travel and work freely is about to be eroded; the right to a decent well paying job is under severe threat. Smart knowing quips on twittter won’t cut it lads, sorry.

Does the other way cut it as well? As I could imagine a bunch of very aggrieved people perceiving that their voice is completely ignored by elites in the capital. This was our vote, they are not implementing it etc etc





The fact is that the vote leave side against all the odds won. The opinion polls show the country has accepted that (whether or not it's a good idea is another matter....) so it should be implemented. If they come crawling back, that's all well and good but at least they carried out the will of the people.


And also why would you want civil unrest? No one wins from that..

Experience_day

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It is an English problem requiring an English solution, nothing to do with SF, nor the SNP, nor Welsh nationalists. I expect MPs in Westminster to do their duty to their constituents, nothing more nothing less. SF do not have a mandate to go to parliament, and they bear no responsibility for Brexit. That’s it.

I thought Wales voted to leave as well?

LuckyLloyd

Experience_day wrote: »

Does the other way cut it as well? As I could imagine a bunch of very aggrieved people perceiving that their voice is completely ignored by elites in the capital. This was our vote, they are not implementing it etc etc





The fact is that the vote leave side against all the odds won. The opinion polls show the country has accepted that (whether or not it's a good idea is another matter....) so it should be implemented. If they come crawling back, that's all well and good but at least they carried out the will of the people.


And also why would you want civil unrest? No one wins from that..

I want young people who voted in huge numbers for remain to make this as awkward as possible for the older generations who sold their economic future down the river on half baked nationalistic nonsense. The vote had no defined implementation, was won on numerous points exposed as lies and featuring criminality by the leave campaign. I don’t care to debate those points, but it is what a majority of young remain voters believe. It is absolutely the time for civil disobedience as an unelected leader in Westminster drives the country off an economic cliff. The point is to create as much unrest as possible. That’s protest.

LuckyLloyd

Experience_day wrote: »

I thought Wales voted to leave as well?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-politics-48247597

Experience_day

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I want young people who voted in huge numbers for remain to make this as awkward as possible for the older generations who sold their economic future down the river on half baked nationalistic nonsense. The vote had no defined implementation, was won on numerous points exposed as lies and featuring criminality by the leave campaign. I don’t care to debate those points, but it is what a majority of young remain voters believe. It is absolutely the time for civil disobedience as an unelected leader in Westminster drives the country off an economic cliff. The point is to create as much unrest as possible. That’s protest.

No that is the road to anarchy. You're essentially saying older people have less right/validity to vote, even though they helped shape the country. Every person has one vote and they are all valued the same.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-politics-48247597

I was referring to the fact that Wales voted to leave..

volchitsa

Experience_day wrote: »

No that is the road to anarchy. You're essentially saying older people have less right/validity to vote, even though they helped shape the country. Every person has one vote and they are all valued the same.

Anarchy? Really? Referenda have no legal value in the UK, they are purely consultative. And this particular referendum was not about leaving the EU with no deal - people were assured that a satisfactory deal would be easy to get. Plus all the other lies like £350m a week for the NHS.

No reason why a referendum held under those conditions and that barely passed even then should be given the value of a holy grail now.

I was referring to the fact that Wales voted to leave..

They did, but IIRC that was due to the high numbers of English people living in Wales. In regions with few English voters, Remain generally won.

Harika

Experience_day wrote: »

The fact is that the vote leave side against all the odds won. The opinion polls show the country has accepted that (whether or not it's a good idea is another matter....) so it should be implemented. If they come crawling back, that's all well and good but at least they carried out the will of the people.
that..

Politicians are not here to make what the electorate wants,they are here to do what's best for the country and electorate. Sometimes this is contrary to popular belief,see the gun ban in Australia what caused the politicians to be voted out but long term people are now happy and safer.
In the same sentence it is a misjudgement that politicians goal is to be re-elected, and no serious study or paper shows that Brexit will make life better.yeah they are now stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Stop moaning ffs

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I want young people who voted in huge numbers for remain to make this as awkward as possible for the older generations who sold their economic future down the river on half baked nationalistic nonsense. The vote had no defined implementation, was won on numerous points exposed as lies and featuring criminality by the leave campaign. I don’t care to debate those points, but it is what a majority of young remain voters believe. It is absolutely the time for civil disobedience as an unelected leader in Westminster drives the country off an economic cliff. The point is to create as much unrest as possible. That’s protest.

Just as an aside and I haven’t seen it mentioned, Johnson has done two live Q&A sessions on Facebook ironically enough, I’m sure both of which were very choreographed in terms of what questions for through and got answered. So he definitely seems to be trying to pitch to the younger demographic (and im sure there’s a number of them out there) rather than the older cohort who definitely voted leave.
I don’t know how you measure the success of such live sessions, but I’m probably in the remain echo chamber to a degree and not even a meme came out of the two, which in itself is unusual. And again, haven’t seen the two sessions mentioned anywhere really.

bilston

Strazdas wrote: »

A massive blunder by Corbyn. He would have been well within his rights to have Labour vote against it (as the Lib Dems and SNP did).

Given he is a bigger Brexiteer than most of the last UK govt I imagine he doesn't see it as a blunder at all.

We will never know but I'd be amazed if Corbyn didn't vote Leave in the referendum.

With a proper Remain supporting Labour leader this whole mess could have been very different.

volchitsa

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Just as an aside and I haven’t seen it mentioned, Johnson has done two live Q&A sessions on Facebook ironically enough, I’m sure both of which were very choreographed in terms of what questions for through and got answered. So he definitely seems to be trying to pitch to the younger demographic (and im sure there’s a number of them out there) rather than the older cohort who definitely voted leave.
I don’t know how you measure the success of such live sessions, but I’m probably in the remain echo chamber to a degree and not even a meme came out of the two, which in itself is unusual. And again, haven’t seen the two sessions mentioned anywhere really.

They were reported on by Radio 4 (the PM program iirc). The reporter said that the BBC and I think ITV as well had decided not to broadcast extracts from them because they saw these "alternative" PMQs as a attempt to bypass normal media coverage (because Downing St chooses which questions to answer, and because there is no possibility of follow-up).

He also pointed out however that these FB PMQs were being covered by the print media. I've no idea which newspapers though. But they have been covered it seems.

Stop moaning ffs

volchitsa wrote: »

They were reported on by Radio 4 (the PM program iirc). The reporter said that the BBC and I think ITV as well had decided not to broadcast extracts from them because they saw these "alternative" PMQs as a attempt to bypass normal media coverage (because Downing St chooses which questions to answer, and because there is no possibility of follow-up).

He also pointed out however that these FB PMQs were being covered by the print media. I've no idea which newspapers though. But they have been covered it seems.

That makes sense. It has been mentioned that his team are hiding him and keeping him away from journalists and questions in general. Adds up I guess.

murphaph

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You look at the protestors in Hong Kong and you can only conclude that the young people of England and Wales are utterly spineless, brow beaten into submission and completely compliant. There is no remain campaign, no active protest. Where is the civil disobedience and dissent?! The freedom to travel and work freely is about to be eroded; the right to a decent well paying job is under severe threat. Smart knowing quips on twittter won’t cut it lads, sorry.

Agree. I mean it seems they are content to sleepwalk into oblivion.

Perhaps the best thing is for the BXP/Tories to target leave Labour seats and get the DUP out of the equation, allowing an Irish sea border and GB leaving "properly", to seek an FTA like Canada with NI effectively remaining in the EU.