Catholic Ireland dead? **Mod Warning in Post #563**

Hawkeye123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926908#Comment_121926908

Anytime. And yes, the science corroborates it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926929#Comment_121926929

Well when anyone opposed to an organisation raises the issue of child sexual abuse within the organisation, I do question whether they’re more concerned about child sexual abuse, or whether they’re just using child sexual abuse as a proxy for their opposition to the organisation.

As for people not being bothered about church schools, the overwhelming demand among parents for ET schools isn’t saying much considering there’s been fcukall ET schools or alternatives established in the last 40 years. Similar to the way in which another poster states that the RCC is more alive in England than in Ireland - of course it is, still only making up about 30% of schools there whereas the majority are CoE schools at 68%.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927064#Comment_121927064

No need, I’ve no doubt like most people in Ireland - they’re well aware of the fact. I remember at the time of the marriage equality referendum when the priest tried to shove the shìtty pamphlet into my hand during mass, I told him shove it up his hole. Not my finest moment, but he got the point.

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927129#Comment_121927129

Same with me. I've heard the atheist in foxhole argument before. I haven't come close to death for myself but I've experienced the death of both my parents. Now that I look back on it at no stage did I think of gods or heaven. I'm pretty sure if I was an atheist in a foxhole I'd be of the same mindset. The chaplins came and did their last rights but that was for my parents beliefs and what they wanted.

I've often wondered why people get so upset about never seeing them again if they were real believers. Going to heaven would be the ultimate reward and they should be happy for them.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927223#Comment_121927223

Sure it does.

Proof if ever there was, that religion makes people say and believe stupid things.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927344#Comment_121927344

I've often wondered why people get so upset if they were real believers.

I highly doubt you actually have ever wondered any such thing. That would suggest you are incapable of empathy.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927339#Comment_121927339

Well when anyone opposed to an organisation raises the issue of child sexual abuse within the organisation, I do question whether they’re more concerned about child sexual abuse, or whether they’re just using child sexual abuse as a proxy for their opposition to the organisation.

That is a disgusting thing to say.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927491#Comment_121927491

By practicing Stoicism, you can detach yourself from your emotional state, and develop resilience which will allow you to focus on your own internal response, rather than making your emotional response anyone else’s responsibility.

https://www.newtraderu.com/2023/07/02/detachment-core-stoic-principle/

Or, you could just read from Meditations again:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121924629#Comment_121924629

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927639#Comment_121927639

By not saying repulsive comments, you could save yourself from looking like a fool, is that how this works?

Nice try with that, inferring there is emotion to avoid addressing your comment. But that is your general tactic on boards anyway, avert avert avert.

Being a stoic doesn’t mean you stay quiet when you see something that warrants a response. Shows, again, you know sod all about it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927689#Comment_121927689

Well, no, that’s not how this works. Your declaration that my opinion is disgusting means absolutely nothing. I didn’t suggest avoiding emotion either, that’s not the point of detachment, a core principle of Stoicism.

I suggest that by being Stoic, you learn to regulate your emotions so that when something disgusts you, you’re better prepared to cope with it. I don’t need to know what disgusts you, it means nothing, but when you see something that you feel warrants a response, address the comment with a response based upon reason rather than emotion.

Pointing out that I know sod all of your interpretation of Stoicism is fairly obvious at this point. I was never interested in your interpretation in the first place, which you chose to interpret as wishing to remain ignorant. You tell yourself whatever makes you comfortable 👌

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927765#Comment_121927765

Oh dear, when a stupid person tries to sound smart.

I really think you are confusing Stoicism with Pacifism, that is understandable if you didn't do your research on it though. Detachment in Stoicism is about cultivating a sense of inner peace, resilience, and freedom. It is not about ignoring something, like a post on a forum, if you wish to engage with it.

You are trying to put emotion to text on a screen, I think I pointed this out to you before in a different thread. Whatever tone you are reading that in, that is on you, so perhaps it might be some internal emotion you need to regulate. If you don't need to know that something disgusts me, feel free to ignore it. If you do engage, just be conscious that you read the text on the screen with whatever tone you apply, I can assure you there is none on my part.

As it is with most of your posts on this forum, this will resolve in a contrarian and condescending charade. Long posts, meaningless links, the occasional emoji. It is the OEJ way. Almost entertaining.

I wish you well.

orourkeda1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/110268686#Comment_110268686

It's someone else doing it now isntead.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927339#Comment_121927339

What happened in the RCC was on a different plane to anywhere else in Ireland, you know this, but you still keep trying to minimise and "whatabout" it.

If I didn't join the swimming club I never met any possible abusers there. If I never joined the scouts I never met any possible abusers there. But until the 90s nearly every child in the country was a potential victim of a paedophile priest and they were damn good at sniffing out the most vulnerable, least likely to have parental backup, kids too. Unquestioning parental trust sure helped there.

As did the bishops who just moved them on, or were convinced a short course of 'treatment' at a church-run clinic would sort the issue right out - as if. Meanwhile shut up the victims and parents and threaten them if necessary, and above all don't report anything to the gardai.

Yes there are shag-all ET schools, that's the problem, and it's not ET preventing more, it's the church and the Dept of Education who like the status quo.

If the RCC didn't care about civil marriage or interfering in civil law they would not have had a word to say about the 2015 referendum, but they did.

InAtFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121928591#Comment_121928591

What happened in the RCC was on a different plane to anywhere else in Ireland, you know this, but you still keep trying to minimise and "whatabout" it.

Have you ever wondered why the RCC clergy appeared to be so rampant with abuse? Back in the day, families were generally very large - it was not uncommon to have anywhere between seven to fifteen or more kids. By the law of statistics some of these kids were gay, bi, lesbian, or as society/families referred to these kids as 'odd'. In those days, 'odd', gay, lesbian and bi kids were scuttled off to the priesthood or convent to hide the family shame. The RCC essentially became band-camp for family outcasts, a club in it's own right.

Not all who went on to join the RCC were 'family outcasts' - there certainly were some great people who joined up with perhaps a little nudge from their parents who often took pride in having a child go on to serve in the RCC. Those were genuinely good people who did good for their eventual communities they served, but unfortunately the bad ones strong-armed into the RCC tarnished the good work of those who did good.

If I didn't join the swimming club I never met any possible abusers there. If I never joined the scouts I never met any possible abusers there. But until the 90s nearly every child in the country was a potential victim of a paedophile priest and they were damn good at sniffing out the most vulnerable, least likely to have parental backup, kids too. Unquestioning parental trust sure helped there.

Reading this passage, one would think with that now with the RCC effectively banished that all forms of abuse are gone with it. Far from it, a fact of life is that there are abusers born every-day and if they don't have a handy RCC club to join, they will find other outlets - they will not fail in carrying out their abuse, they will do it regardless.

Go in to the NMH tonight, any night, see all the babies in their cots. A proportion of those babies will go on to abuse other people in time. It's an unavoidable, and most unfortunate stain on our collective humanity that abuse, and especially sexual abuse exists. It will never be totally eradicated unfortunately - unless there is some identification in DNA and the ability to alter this discovered in the future.

As did the bishops who just moved them on, or were convinced a short course of 'treatment' at a church-run clinic would sort the issue right out - as if. Meanwhile shut up the victims and parents and threaten them if necessary, and above all don't report anything to the gardai.

Yes there are shag-all ET schools, that's the problem, and it's not ET preventing more, it's the church and the Dept of Education who like the status quo.

The RCC as mentioned above had its fair share of abusers in it's ranks. You can be sure the networking skills back in the day meant that birds of a similar feather flocked together and used their collective strength to govern the RCC club as they saw fit - which was to their own personal preference. If you think that ET schools are the silver bullet to end RCC abuse, well - they'll join up and run that too. Abusers are quite cunning, like a chameleon, they'll change to their new environment in an instant.

If the RCC didn't care about civil marriage or interfering in civil law they would not have had a word to say about the 2015 referendum, but they did.

The RCC will always exist in some shape or form and will give it's opinion when asked, no different to GLEN or any other social-religious organisation. They advocated no votes in the last four referendums and lost hard in three, they advocated no in the last referendum and won massively. However, I seriously doubt very many people went out on March 8th and put two X's on the advice of the March 3rd morning mass sermon, would you?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121928591#Comment_121928591

No I don’t know that. What I do know is that there were people in positions of authority and influence in many organisations including the Church, Schools, Scouts, Sports, Hospitals, Institutions and Rehab just to name a few, and many other organisations where adults had unfettered access and authority over children and vulnerable adults, and if the victims made a report to AGS, they were just as much up to their necks in it too, as were many of the State agencies, and the AGS colluded in covering up the abuse in order to protect the Church, and of course themselves. I also know that the vast majority of child sexual abuse takes place within families, and it is the families will try to protect the abuser and silence their victims in order not to ‘bring shame upon the family’.

It’s for this reason that I don’t wish to see child sexual abuse trivialised to the extent that it’s merely used as a means to claim the moral high ground in any discussion, and never as a means to address the actual issue of child sexual abuse. That’s why I question whether the people deploying it are actually more concerned about child sexual abuse, or are they just using the issue as a proxy to attack their target.

I know it’s not the ET is preventing the establishment of more ET schools, I know that there is massive demand among parents for an alternative to traditional Catholic Education, which is why the head of the ET organisation complained a few years back about their schools which were originally established with the intent of providing an alternative to Catholic Education for the children of parents who weren’t Catholic, are now half full of Catholic students!

https://www.educatetogether.ie/news/growing-diversity-among-primary-schools-in-ireland/

It’s the majority of the electorate who like the status quo more, otherwise education would have made it higher up the political agenda than it has done in the last 40 years. I’m sure I don’t need to tell you what are the main things people are pointing to which influence the way they voted, or the way they will vote in upcoming elections. Education just isn’t a top priority for the electorate, it never has been.

I never said the RCC didn’t care, I said there was no need to inform the RCC Hierarchy that referendums were concerned with Civil Law, not Canon Law, as like most people in Ireland I’ve no doubt they’re aware of that fact already. The RCC Hierarchy has a word to say about everything, because their objective is to influence Irish society and politics and law. The point I was making is that the Hierarchy just doesn’t have the authority they once had in Irish society, because they have no credibility. They did that to themselves. It doesn’t mean ordinary Catholics have to switch to another denomination or anything else, they didn’t suddenly change their beliefs just because the organisation went to shìt.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121928897#Comment_121928897

Maybe you read my post - I'm not certain that you did - but you certainly made very little effort to understand it.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929142#Comment_121929142

Minimise, excuse, whatabout, repeat.

Hotblack Desiato

It never ceases to amaze me how the religious apologists continue to maintain that they have any sort of morality on their side - even while they continue to deny, excuse and minimse the most vile crimes.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929264#Comment_121929264

For a bunch that preach so much about morality, knowing what’s wrong and what’s right, Gods plan…they don’t really seem to know much at all.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929264#Comment_121929264

I highly doubt your own narrative has ever amazed you at all 😒

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929287#Comment_121929287

Minimise, excuse, whatabout, repeat.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929190#Comment_121929190

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929298#Comment_121929298

Go for three in a row? 😂

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929287#Comment_121929287

Ah bless, nothing to say to the actual post so you’ll just attack the poster.

Never change, OEJ, never change.

csirl

In spite of all the child abuse scandals, todays church has not learned anything. Still tolerating and defending child abusers.

Frank Bullitt

We also don’t just have to talk about the child abuse, the RCC have committed plenty of other horrible crimes that are worth mentioning.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929325#Comment_121929325

Frank you’re in no position to be throwing stones when you appear to be struggling with the concept of Stoicism, even by your own standards:

Nice try at a subtle dig there at the end, the whole point of it is to not be boastful or infer a trend of superiority. You might learn from that, if you try.

For what it’s worth, I addressed the actual post, when I pointed out that I doubt HD has ever been amazed by a narrative that they’ve constructed in their own mind. The content of the narrative itself are of no concern or value to me whatsoever. If I felt there was any truth to it I might be inclined to declare as you did “that’s a disgusting thing to say”, but I’m not interested in feigning offence and playing the victim just to score points either.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929389#Comment_121929389

And another attack without address the actual post, brilliant. You’ll be like a dog with a bone with the stoic references now to avoid any actual engaging in discourse.

You've not addressed anything in the post, we can all see that. You’re not interested in feigning offence…that must be a poor attempt at a joke.

Go on, say something about being a stoic and avoid the topic.

JupiterKid

Mod:-

Please refrain from the personal attacks, lads.

Keep the (heated) discussion civil or else threadbans will ensue.

JK

Hawkeye123

Why are atheists so excitable? I have posted two or three questions on different forums in recent days but the only one that keeps getting answers (and stupid answers at that) are from people who think Catholic Ireland is dead. We Catholics have just kicked butt in the recent referendums. Mná na hÉireann`s place is in the home according to the women`s council and the electoral commission`s interpretation of the Constitution. They are the one`s who called for Yes Yes in the referendums but the people agreed with the Catholic bishops said No to both referendums.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Sudden Valley

This is the first time I've heard the two referenda results attributed to religious reasons. I don't think there is any evidence to support this idea and the result was more to do with immigration fears and protest against the government.

yagan

I think the biggest indicator for the health of any organisation is its ability to recruit, and the average age of the Irish priest is somewhere around 65, or higher.

A while ago at a family gathering two of my older brothers were recounting how in the early 1970s when they were around 11/12 someone from the teaching order came recruiting for a preparation week for joining the order. One of my brothers was mad keen as he just wanted to go anywhere, they actually took his name. The older brother told our mother, she had to go up to the school and insist that her 11 year old wasn't going away for a week to a religious training college.

So in my mind that catholic ireland is dead, where the cycle of men who were recruited as children were still allowed to recruit children in state funded schools was considered a norm.