Catholic Ireland dead? **Mod Warning in Post #563**

randd1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922692#Comment_121922692

I suppose it depends on which part really, there's a lot of iffy stuff that seems accepted in the book. Incest, rape, mass murder, slavery, child murder, genocide, betrayal, xenophobia, sorcery, cult following, disrespect for other religions, piety, paedophilia.

Not sure people are generally in favour of such things these days.

And the ones that are, well...

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121924447#Comment_121924447

The way that hits my ears - it sounds more like bypassing grief entirely rather than making it easier to grieve. Because under the afterlife fantasy the person is not gone merely temporarily absent.

Some people close to me moved to Australia. I felt saddened by their departure and a sense of painful distance. But I did not grieve for them. They were simply currently absent and I could look forward to future meetings with them.

Treating the actual loss of someone to death in the same way as temporary absence sounds not at all like a diluted easier grieving process to me. It sounds like a very unhealthy substitution for grief to simply bypass it entirely.

I do not think grief is - or even should be - easy. If I think of the potential death of the people I currently love most - I absolutely do not want that grief to be easy. It should be hard. And I should feel it and face it and work through it. Personally I would even feel it a testament and expression of my love and respect for them to face that grief head on and make it part of me. Rather than seeking to dilute it or ease it.

So if any religious person were to try to sell me religion under the notion it would make grief easier or better - they would be getting a "no sale" with me personally at least. That is a product I have literally no use for myself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121924454#Comment_121924454

That notion has never really sat well with me either. The "if you are good" bit especially. What if I am not good? Or what if the person dearest to me in the world was not good? Am I - or they - therefore doomed to an eternity of the other being absent because one of us was "good" and the other not? An eternity of real and actual grief at their loss in a realm where I perhaps have to praise the dear leader and the realm for how wonderful and amazing and great they are? No wonder some have described it as a celestial North Korea or a Metaphysical 1984. They can keep the after life if that's the image of it they are selling. It's not for me. I'd much prefer welcoming the seemingly more likely bliss of oblivion myself.

And why are so many descriptions of this after life so cased in base or carnal human imagery? Gates made of pearls and other riches? Rivers of milk and honey. Groups of Virgins (often women, somehow women don't get offered equivalent male virgins all that often or at all). Isn't it curious that this alleged afterlife often seems to amount to little more than base human (often male) desires being satiated? Despite the fact that having your every desire constantly and instantly satiated likely leads to nothing but misery, depression and derangement even hear on earth let alone for all eternity and infinity. The thing about 32 (?) virgins is after 32 shags you have no more virgins and an eternity to spend with them. Maybe not the paradise some would think it to be. Especially if they do indeed have this really creepy and very weird obsession with virginity than so many appear to have.

Again these religious people of whom you speak can shove it. I ain't remotely tempted into buying what they are shilling. It sounds awful.

yagan

To circle back to the thread title, is Roman Catholic Ireland dead? I'd say very much, especially since the marriage equality and repeal referendums.

Is catholic Ireland dead? I'd say no.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925197#Comment_121925197

Saying its bypassing grief is nonsense, the person losing the loved one is still grieving, they have just got a way to make it a little less terrible.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925720#Comment_121925720

The distinction being made - which is not nonsense at all - is between the negative feelings of believing someone is gone forever and believing someone is merely absent and you will see them again. I do not think the latter is "grief" personally. But I imagine it heavily depends what dictionary you use. Some dictionaries define grief as "deep sorrow" for example. Which vastly increases things you could call grief really.

While both can be painful, sometimes incredibly so - trust me I have several instances of both in my life - I simply do not think they are the same thing. And a debate of linguistic pedantry which might in the end have us agree, or disagree, about whether you use the same word to describe them both still will not make them the same thing no matter which way such a potential debate resolves itself.

The point again is that if someone is dead and gone forever - pretending to oneself that they are still out there and shure you'll only be seeing them again some day - is certainly not how I would ever want to dodge the experience of grief - or even any aspect of it. YMMV of course. The majority of my post was speaking about me personally. If actual theists find this useful that's great for them. It's not for me. Grief is not easy and for me personally I do not think it should be, nor would I want it to be.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911806#Comment_121911806

Very few Irish people who have been through this indoctrination will not seek absolution on their death beds for fear of the hell they were told about as a vulnerable child.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Or is this just the "deathbed conversion" myth cropping up again?

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925764#Comment_121925764

"No atheists in a foxhole"

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925762#Comment_121925762

I think it's fair to say that deep sorrow is an excellent way to describe grief. When a religious person loses someone they love, even if they believe they are in the heaven they believe in they still experience the pain of grief.

Iscreamkone

When I get to this heaven will I be greeted by my first wife. What happens when wives 2 or 3 come to heaven afterwards? Eternity could be difficult with all of them wrecking my head.

Also, will wife no2’s boob job make it to heaven. If not then that might not be so heavenly for me.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925306#Comment_121925306

How are you distinguishing between Roman Catholic Ireland, and Catholic Ireland?

Is it that the Hierarchy has lost its authority? If that’s the distinction then I’d agree, but if it’s to suggest that Roman Catholicism is dead, then I don’t think you could use the results of referendums in making that assessment. Referendums are concerned with Civil Law, not Canon Law.

This article for example was written 10 years ago, and not much has changed since then -

https://archive.ph/bXSno

The paper referred to in the article is here:

https://researchrepository.ucd.ie/server/api/core/bitstreams/b4e9ee26-678c-48d2-a5b8-a8e9c132ad54/content

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925926#Comment_121925926

I am not saying that deep sorrow is not a good way to describe it. I am saying it is also a good way to describe so many other things - that the word can almost mean too much. And to steal a phrase from another boards user: A word that comes to mean too much comes to mean nothing. So I personally back off using words in too general a way. If others do it that's fine with me too.

Conversations that equivocate over a single word quickly become boring to me. When the substance of a discussion is ignored and a single word usage debated - then it just gets pointless. All you are doing at that point is showing you use slightly different definitions for words than the other person in the discussion. Boring.

Usually a mature and useful test for this is to see if you can make exactly the same point - but do it without using that contentious word much or at all. I have attempted that in my previous post but unfortunately your reply in turn has simply returned to discussing only the word. But I am happy to do it again without using the word at all this time:

The emotions associated with someone merely being absent and being dead and gone are not identical for me personally. And I suspect are likely not identical for many (any?) other people either. For me at least, someone being dead is a much different emotional experience than someone having moved to Australia where I will hardly see them but eventually will.

So the only point I was making - regardless of whether a single word I used while making it bothers someone - is that I personally have no interest in engaging with a fantasy that allows me the move of bypassing much of the former by merely pretending it is the latter. By imagining someone is merely in another realm like heaven and I will see them again some day - I would starkly change my emotional response from merely missing them to acknowledging I will never experience them directly again and they are gone. Just Gone.

The user I was replying to originally seemed almost wistful that the religious people (which they acknowledge they are not) have access to this move to ease the passage of their particular pain. I simply point out that I would not even remotely want to ease it in this way - even were I interested in easing it at all. Which generally I am not. It is something that each and every time it happens - I intend to experience in it's fullest and work through it rather than avoid or lessen it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925764#Comment_121925764

I think it’s more an argument against the indoctrination of children, that when they become adults, there still remains the impression and impact of what they were taught as children, to the extent that on their deathbed they’re inclined to hedge their bets, just in case!

Personally, I was looking forward to the idea of toasting marshmallows, but it turns out I was lied to as a child about the whole fiery pits and lakes of fire and all the rest of it. Turns out that was just metaphorical imagery and never intended to be taken literally:

However, Cardinal Vincent Nichols, the most senior Catholic in England and Wales, said "there's nowhere in Catholic teaching that actually says any one person is in hell".

He told the BBC that the Pope was apparently exploring "the imagery of hell - fire and brimstone and all of that". 

"That's never been part of Catholic teaching, it's been part of Catholic iconography, part of Christian iconography," he said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43596919.amp

The concept of “hell” in the Catechism of the Catholic Church refers merely to self-exclusion from communion with God:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1033.htm

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925983#Comment_121925983

Roman Catholicism is probably more alive in England than Ireland.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926095#Comment_121926095

I’m not being smart, I still have no idea what you’re referring to as Roman Catholicism in Ireland, to the extent that it’s distinguishable from the idea of Catholic Ireland. Pointing out that Roman Catholicism is probably more alive in England than Ireland still isn’t giving any indication of what you’re referring to.

Is it in terms of the education systems in both countries? Because while Roman Catholic ethos schools are becoming more popular in England, they never had a chance to become unpopular in Ireland, given the lack of alternatives to Roman Catholic ethos schools!

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121924689#Comment_121924689

The science to prove it, I did need a bit of a laugh in my day. Thank you.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925306#Comment_121925306

I would say it is more accurate to say it is dying, rather than dead.

This thread shows that, and I see it generally in my circle of friends back home. The stranglehold the church had over society is 100% waining now, and I am very happy that it is.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916149#Comment_121916149

"Hey, look over there!"

As for people not being bothered about church schools, a lot of parents are bothered by it and the proof is the overwhelming demand for places in ET schools.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925986#Comment_121925986

Changing the word is grand but that doesn't change the fact that when someone loses a loved one they don't act like the person is just absent, they still fully experience the loss.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926923#Comment_121926923

You're probably right.

As I said earlier there's a lot people who'll still put their kids through the rites in fear of getting written out of the wills of the elderly true believers.

When we were kids the school outing was a trip to knock, now they go to the Alps.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121919971#Comment_121919971

All of the major ones in Dublin make a point of advertising that they do religious and secular funerals. I can't speak for elsewhere.

Do you really think the 'national psyche' is determined by the wishes (or, assumed wishes) only of those right at the end of their lives? Bizarre outlook if so.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926979#Comment_121926979

Close friends of mine thought about baptizing their kids because the grandparents were deeply religious, they eventually didn't and probably won't now either.

Apply that to rural Ireland and I would say the pressure would be much much more.

Even at that, I do not have a friend of my age that goes to mass, believes in a god, any of that. So it will probably take a few more generations to really kick in.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121924447#Comment_121924447

Yet believers still cry at funerals

Frank Bullitt

Also note this "if you are good, you get to go to heaven", so you effectively have to live your life under pain of punishment from an invisible sky daddy...and if you are bold, you go to hell.

But don't worry, say a few prayers or go into a dark box with a professional virgin and you have evened the odds.

A reductionist view, granted, but when it is painted like that...religion really is a bizarre one.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925793#Comment_121925793

Well guess what, another oft-quoted religious aphorism is a lie.

https://ffrf.org/campaigns/atheists-in-foxholes

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925983#Comment_121925983

Referendums are concerned with Civil Law, not Canon Law.

Someone please inform the RCC hierarchy accordingly... e.g. marriage equality referendum ONLY affected civil marriage and had no effect on religious ceremonies.

Quitelife

Was at mass last Sunday , well back from years ago but still 200 odd people there in a parish of 1500 .Don’t think anything else locally would get 200 people at it these days , To be honest I met a few neighbours , said a few prayers and went away feeling better so for some people that’s their thing every week and best of luck to them .

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927028#Comment_121927028

Obviously there is hurt when you lose someone you love.

For me when my friend died that was it, it's game over.

Those people believe they'll see their friends and family in the next life which in my opinion makes it a lot easier to get over the loss.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926940#Comment_121926940

That's my point! I too engage in fully experiencing the loss. What I do not do is merely pretend or believe the person is just absent. And pretending or beleiving that the loved one is just in the after life and you'll be seeing them soon enough - can potentially have that effect. As I said my entire set of posts was only talking about myself - but for me I am not interested in that at all. When I experience grief I experience it for what it is - face on. I do not pretend it is something it isn't.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121927100#Comment_121927100

Nobody should give out about those going to mass and getting a happy buzz from it. Knock yourself out with the Jesus biscuits.

The problem is that the religious want others to live by their rules and even want the law of the land to reflect religious beliefs. This is when they need to be told where to go.

If we listened to the priests we’d still have no contraception, divorce, abortion or same sex marriage here.