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Time to create our own Political Party

135

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭KikiLaRue


    Nobelium wrote: »
    if you're in politics for the money, then you're in it for entirely the wrong reasons. We don't need more Berties and expenses and spin allowance junkies, we need fewer.

    So how would you suggest we attract the right kind of people with the right values?

    As I said, it’s easy to point out problems, the country would be a better place if we focused less on moaning and more on solutions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Igotadose wrote: »
    I live in West Kerry and loath the healy-rae's. However, longer-term residents adore them. Not for their right-wing pro-Catholic Church politics.

    Because if you phone them, they ring you back. If your road needs a repair and the county council can't get to it, you call Michael Healy-Rae's office, and on his way to work in a few days, he phones you from the car and dispatches an underling to deal with it.

    There are way too many of these Healy-Raes in politics, they're all over the county council and so on, but you have to respect how they do their jobs. They're hands-on, good or bad. They should just stfu about climate, Trump, religion, etc. and keep the roads repaired, the bridges replaced, fiber optic run out to rural areas, etc.


    This is the problem though. They dont do their jobs. They are not part of a leadership, reform, development, and governance of the country. They are two bit local fixers. If people are happy to elect their like (and they are only the high profile epitome of the syndrome - many others in the Dail are little different), then they cannot complain about 'politicians' not doing a good job.

    Its a serious issue, and the ordinary people of Ireland are failing themselves. And there is no kind way to put it, but the people of Kerry are particularly ignorant of what a politician should be doing for them, and of their responsibilities to elect capable representatives.

    The irony is that while those supporters think a good job is being done for them, in fact, a terrible job is being done, and to their cost. You certainly cant expect to have the crucial, nation defining services, development, infrastructure, competitiveness, and the planning of the future, when you elect someone whose forte is getting a pot hole filled, or a queue jump for a hospital appointment.
    Yet those same people will bitch about politicians and political parties as if they are some 'other', and not the consequence of the people they choose, freely, to elect. Kerry is a very sad case, and a laughing stock. But the rest of the country is not far ahead.

    MHR has a rather good record in Dail debates. He votes in the Dail. He has been a member of Dail committee s and Dail cross party and government led action groups. He protects the local services and kicks up a fuss if they are getting degraded.All this and he's not even in Gov.! He does a few things alright which he shouldn't be doing..like when he had his bike stolen... only then did I find out he goes regularly to the passport office in Dublin to get passports for people... basically like an errand boy. Tis grand and helpful like but he shouldn't be doing it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,613 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Pay them more? I've heard it all now.. I'd strongly believe wadges should be slashed along with the amount of tds

    The number of politicians was slashed already, with the abolition of town councils and a reduction in TD's. Also the government wanted to abolish the Seanad, but that was rejected.

    Their entire wages for a year would probably not pay the social welfare bill for a day. Anyone who wants to make a big difference in spending will have to concentrate on the bit three, Welfare, Health and Education. Everything else is is just tinkering at the edges.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,794 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    lalababa wrote: »
    He does a few things alright which he shouldn't be doing..like when he had his bike stolen... only then did I find out he goes regularly to the passport office in Dublin to get passports for people.

    Another thing he should not be doing that emerged from that incident is channeling Liam Neeson:
    DgKZ4F3XUAITcaZ.jpg


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    KikiLaRue wrote: »
    So how would you suggest we attract the right kind of people with the right values?

    As I said, it’s easy to point out problems, the country would be a better place if we focused less on moaning and more on solutions.

    What you like to dismiss and attempt to silence and sweep under the carpet as moaning, is usually truthful ordinary people who still genuinely give a **** about the country instead of just themselves and their cronies.

    You can't identify solutions until you correctly diagnose the actual problems and the actual causes. Effort needs to be focused on the root cause not just short term symptoms, or issuing continual PR statements.

    The starting point is the young. If we are genuine about the continuous evolvement and improvement of human society, they should be taught critiical thinking, ethics, logic and philosophy. They should be taught to analyse each issue on it's own merits, instead of slavishly following the fatal divide and conquer strategy of pigeon holing people into pre defined identity/race/sexual politics and or so called / left / right politics.

    Currently, honest educated people don't go into Irish politics, and who could blame them. Currently they don't stand a chance against the corrupt and the unethical, or just as bad, those who are only interested in pushing their own selfish identity politics / single group agenda.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,613 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Nobelium wrote: »
    What you like to dismiss and attempt to silence and sweep under the carpet as moaning, is usually truthful ordinary people who still genuinely give a **** about the country instead of just themselves and their cronies.

    You can't identify solutions until you correctly diagnose the actual problems and the actual causes. Effort needs to be focused on the root cause not just short term symptoms, or issuing continual PR statements.

    The starting point is the young. If we are genuine about the continuous evolvement and improvement of human society, they should be taught critiical thinking, ethics, logic and philosophy. They should be taught to analyse each issue on it's own merits, instead of slavishly following the fatal divide and conquer strategy of pigeon holing people into pre defined identity/race/sexual politics and or so called / left / right politics.

    Currently, honest educated people don't go into Irish politics, and who could blame them. Currently they don't stand a chance against the corrupt and the unethical, or just as bad, those who are only interested in pushing their own selfish identity politics / single group agenda.

    Either things are worse now, or better, or the same as in the past. If you think they are worse, what years in the past were better?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    But what are the uniforms like?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,955 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Either things are worse now, or better, or the same as in the past. If you think they are worse, what years in the past were better?

    elements are far better, and other elements are worse


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭ressem


    You might prefer to see that greener grass burning in other countries, but I'd much rather my neighbours weren't setting fire to the nation's infrastructure and costing the taxpayer millions of euros in extra policing costs every single feckin' weekend because they've nothing better to do than mouth off about how the government's not looking after them, even though it's that very same government that subsidises just about every aspect of their lives. :mad:

    Our political parties do seem to pick other international counterparts to mirror.

    Parts of FG try to cherrypick USA republican business-friendly policies.
    FF moreso USA democrat, populist.
    Sinn fein seem to identify with Cuban and Venezuelan leadership.
    Labour probably the french socialists,

    What ought the public aspire to? Switzerland, with it's heaver demands on the citizenry with 4 referendums per year? (E-Voting allowed)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Swiss_referendums
    That's the argument used to justify paying senior consultants and top bankers and all kinds of other "brightest and best" people that are supposedly needed to efficiently and successfully run whatever they're put in charge of. It rarely works, and it's unlikely to work in politics either. Pay four people a quarter of the salary and you'll get far more done by people who actually want to do it for what it is, not for the money.

    Agree, it's the lazy quick fix attempt to buy perfection.
    Politics requires compromise, and much more communication and analysis.
    And a lot of the problems have been created by old laws, that cause problems when our environment changes.

    E.g. Varadkar and the Waterford mortuary.
    Even as he displayed disbelief regarding the emergency alert raised by the 4 pathologists, and UHW management, and assistant chief Executive Officer of the SSW Hospital group

    It looks like it required the embarrassment of the Taoiseach to get the temporary refrigerated prefabs in place.

    It also seems that the HSE incident reporting process is failing to deliver information, and senior management are putting excessive trust in it being an accurate top-level view of the organisation.

    Even the group CEO seemingly doesn't use it when he is alerted by letter to a failure that threatens employees and patients.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/senior-hospital-official-appalled-at-condition-of-waterford-mortuary-1.3879288

    (A failing that happens in corporations as well, with million euro compensated directors)

    Ministers and the Taoiseach need to get out of a twittering immediate comment mode, and adopt a conscientious manager approach; delegate & verify.

    As for what political parties should provide?
    I believed that their party political organisation, local councilors, would act at the ground level to verify delivery of effective state services to feed information to the Dail?
    Is that also malfunctioning, or is it just ignored by the higher-ups in the party.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    Either things are worse now, or better, or the same as in the past. If you think they are worse, what years in the past were better?

    Some things are better, some things are worse . . it's not some simple linear graph. Other than learning the lessons that can be learned from the past, that's where the past should stay. What we do today is the future. It's to the future we should be thinking about and planning and acting correctly now for the greater good of all. It's about pushing for continuous improvement and evolvement of Irish and wider human society for the greater good of everyone, not just certain interests and identities and divide and conquer politics. That push should never end. The countries and societies that get this will thrive, those that don't will perish.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,613 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    ressem wrote: »


    As for what political parties should provide?
    I believed that their party political organisation, local councilors, would act at the ground level to verify delivery of effective state services to feed information to the Dail?
    Is that also malfunctioning, or is it just ignored by the higher-ups in the party.

    A practical example of what local councils do when given some power. Central government broadened the tax base by bringing in property tax. They also tried to introduce water charges. Local councils in some cases actually reduce their revenue stream by cutting the property tax. This makes them more popular and electable locally, but it is not a good way to operate for the overall benefit of a council area.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/local-property-tax/valuing-your-property/has-your-local-authority-rate-changed.aspx


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭Atoms for Peace


    I'm voting PBP on the assumption that they are an Irish branch of the monster raving loony party. :)


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    lalababa wrote: »
    MHR has a rather good record in Dail debates. He votes in the Dail. He has been a member of Dail committee s and Dail cross party and government led action groups. He protects the local services and kicks up a fuss if they are getting degraded.All this and he's not even in Gov.! He does a few things alright which he shouldn't be doing..like when he had his bike stolen... only then did I find out he goes regularly to the passport office in Dublin to get passports for people... basically like an errand boy. Tis grand and helpful like but he shouldn't be doing it!

    https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1115990058333614080?s=19


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    ressem wrote: »
    As for what political parties should provide?
    I believed that their party political organisation, local councilors, would act at the ground level to verify delivery of effective state services to feed information to the Dail?
    Is that also malfunctioning, or is it just ignored by the higher-ups in the party.

    It's both malfunctioning and being ignored. The public prefer going to TD's as they know Councillors have little or no power to deliver anything other than endless talking shops and pantomime performances for the local paper. TD's have little or no power to deliver anything either, but they might have access to a Minster now and then. A government Minister is the lowest level in the Irish political system, that in reality has any actual access to any resources and their actual allocation. Ministers are never ever going to delegate that power to mere TD's never mind Councillors.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,613 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Nobelium wrote: »
    Some things are better, some things are worse . . it's not some simple linear graph. Other than learning the lessons that can be learned from the past, that's where the past should stay. What we do today is the future. It's to the future we should be thinking about and planning and acting correctly now for the greater good of all. It's about pushing for continuous improvement and evolvement of Irish and wider human society for the greater good of everyone, not just certain interests and identities and divide and conquer politics. That push should never end. The countries and societies that get this will thrive, those that don't will perish.

    Where things are better would you give any credit to politicians for making them better?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    lalababa wrote: »
    .. only then did I find out he goes regularly to the passport office in Dublin to get passports for people... basically like an errand boy. Tis grand and helpful like but he shouldn't be doing it!

    That's what people in Ireland vote for, they haven't a clue or care about the Dail or Dail committees. If he or any other Irish TD didn't do that or hundreds of similar trivial errands and applications for their constituents, they would not have a hope in hell of being elected. The quality of the average Irish politician is directly related to the quality of the average Irish voter. Love them or loath them, and I loath them, the Healy-Rae's are well able for anyone, and can buy and sell anyone who makes the very stupid assumption they are smarter than they are, or know the Irish political game better.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    Where things are better would you give any credit to politicians for making them better?

    Again, it's not as simplistic as that. Very little if anything in Irish politics is genuine, it's a means to a personal end for themselves and their cronies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,168 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    It works in lots of companies e.g. gambling and airlines.

    Airlines? Have you ever looked at the number of times airlines go bust through bad management, or flirt with bankruptcy until they can shaft their own suppliers and get bailed out by their local taxpayers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,613 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Nobelium wrote: »
    Again, it's not as simplistic as that. Very little if anything in Irish politics is genuine, it's a means to a personal end for themselves and their cronies.

    If they want personal gains they can get a lot more outside of politics. And there is a lot more corruption in private business.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,613 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Airlines? Have you ever looked at the number of times airlines go bust through bad management, or flirt with bankruptcy until they can shaft their own suppliers and get bailed out by their local taxpayers?

    A simple number would not be useful. What percentage of airlines do you mean? And whatever is going on doesn't stop the top brass in airlines being paid many multiples of what any politician gets.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,426 ✭✭✭ressem


    A practical example of what local councils do when given some power. Central government broadened the tax base by bringing in property tax. They also tried to introduce water charges. Local councils in some cases actually reduce their revenue stream by cutting the property tax. This makes them more popular and electable locally, but it is not a good way to operate for the overall benefit of a council area.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/local-property-tax/valuing-your-property/has-your-local-authority-rate-changed.aspx

    Depends, the councils that reduced rates were high population Dublin/ Fingal / Dun Laoghaire region, that might justify this by the high property pricing and savings from increased density, whenever the next property valuation review takes place.
    I'd worry about other areas where councils might be too cowardly to increase rates since 2014, allowing them to be eaten by inflation.

    Nobelium wrote: »
    It's both malfunctioning and being ignored. The public prefer going to TD's as they know Councillors have little or no power to deliver anything other than endless talking shops and pantomime performances for the local paper. TD's have little or no power to deliver anything either, but they might have access to a Minster now and then. A government Minister is the lowest level in the Irish political system, that in reality has any actual access to any resources and their actual allocation. Ministers are never ever going to delegate that power to mere TD's never mind Councillors.

    Pretty defeatist, and I've observed some areas where councilors have an influence.
    Lots of the public send letters to TDs about issues that can and are handled acceptably by a local UDC employee.

    The original question wasn't about power, more about party internal communication. If a political party as a whole is seen as effective at communicating the public's issues internally, isn't that a selling point for the entire party membership?
    If members of a party can't do so internally, then they are unlikely to communicate effectively with the public sector and state organisations, and get the information back to the citizen.

    Is it the case that party TDs can't accomplish this at close to the level of an independent like Healy Rea?


    And an established, funded party should be able to get such communication channels setup more quickly than a new startup party struggling for awareness and membership.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,107 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog



    Jesus, that is...what do you even say to that??

    It makes me despair.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    If they want personal gains they can get a lot more outside of politics. And there is a lot more corruption in private business.

    Some can, some can't, and private business doesn't usually fck up an entire country in the process.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    ressem wrote: »
    Pretty defeatist, and I've observed some areas where councilors have an influence.

    No pretty realistic and based on actual reality, not PR spin. Councillors achieve fck all. They have next to zero executive powers or leverage over the executive, and the council executive are at the beck and call of the dept. It's all pantomime, and a very centralised, small, tightly controlled power center.
    ressem wrote: »
    The original question wasn't about power, more about party internal communication.

    Everything is about power or at the very least access to it, leverage, or quid pro quo. If you don't know that you know feck all about real politics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,613 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Nobelium wrote: »
    Some can, some can't, and private business doesn't usually fck up an entire country in the process.

    Bertie Aherns government was one of the most popular ever, getting elected three times and relegating FG to 31 seats in the process. Only bettered by Jack Lynch in 1977 who got the biggest majority ever by abolishing domestic rates (property tax / water and bin charges). He also abolished road/motor tax. It's what the people wanted.

    In Bertie's and Charlie McCreevy's liberal financial regimes the economy flourished, but it was actually private business in the shape of the banks which had to be bailed out by the taxpayer in the end. Which was necessary to protect the hundreds of thousands of individual depositors, and those who borrowed more than they could afford. Some people wanted to let them go under, but whether that would have worked out better in the long run nobody knows.

    It doesn't matter who is in power in a capitalist economy, there will always be recessions.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    Bertie Aherns government was one of the most popular ever, getting elected three times and relegating FG to 31 seats in the process. Only bettered by Jack Lynch in 1977 who got the biggest majority ever by abolishing domestic rates (property tax / water and bin charges). He also abolished road/motor tax. It's what the people wanted.

    In Bertie's and Charlie McCreevy's liberal financial regimes the economy flourished, but it was actually private business in the shape of the banks which had to be bailed out by the taxpayer in the end. Which was necessary to protect the hundreds of thousands of individual depositors, and those who borrowed more than they could afford. Some people wanted to let them go under, but whether that would have worked out better in the long run nobody knows.

    It doesn't matter who is in power in a capitalist economy, there will always be recessions.

    i'm sure there's a point in there somewhere . . .politicians are the ones that decide how much freedom for shenanigans business has


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Bertie Aherns government was one of the most popular ever, getting elected three times and relegating FG to 31 seats in the process. Only bettered by Jack Lynch in 1977 who got the biggest majority ever by abolishing domestic rates (property tax / water and bin charges). He also abolished road/motor tax. It's what the people wanted.

    In Bertie's and Charlie McCreevy's liberal financial regimes the economy flourished, but it was actually private business in the shape of the banks which had to be bailed out by the taxpayer in the end. Which was necessary to protect the hundreds of thousands of individual depositors, and those who borrowed more than they could afford. Some people wanted to let them go under, but whether that would have worked out better in the long run nobody knows.

    It doesn't matter who is in power in a capitalist economy, there will always be recessions.

    Charlie Mcgreevy and his giveaway budgets are the reason FG are still trying to battle the war machine that is the public sector.

    They have become an unstoppable monster, just look at the nurses strike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,613 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Nobelium wrote: »
    i'm sure there's a point in there somewhere . . .politicians are the ones that decide how much freedom for shenanigans business has

    But they are a tiny number of the population, and just by sheer numbers there has to be a lot more shenanigans by those involved in private business.

    Even where both sides are involved there has to be a dodgy builder for every dodgy planner or politician taking a brown envelope. And every dodgy journalist paying a dodgy Garda for inside information. The difference is that in business there will be lots of managers and editors who authorise this sort of thing, whereas it will usually be one bent individual on the public service side.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Bertie Aherns government was one of the most popular ever,

    Popular is the nub of the problem. In Ireland, due to the poor political judgement and sophistication of the electorate, there is a strong inverse correlation between a government popularity and how good a job they are doing. This is universal across whatever party or combination of is in power, so having another political party will not help this fundamental problem of people not being able to vote responsibly for their own overall good, and the long term good of the country.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    The solution may come in the way of independents (as demonstrated recently in the uk/ni by their widespread gains).

    If the established do fook all, apart from look after themselves (likely all got creamy nest eggs in the sweltering housing market), then a group of independent figures may wake them up.
    There's no harm in the OP pointing out the issues, or indeed for anyone else to ask questions.
    Without questions you won't get any answers.

    Also with a group of free thinking independents, you'll get more questions, and it's also much harder to 'brown envelope' them all.


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