Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

salmocab

thomond2006 wrote: »

Off wiki:

Jack Conan
Will Connors
Max Deegan
Caelan Doris
Dan Leavy
Josh Murphy
Scott Penny
Rhys Ruddock
Josh van der Flier

Keeping nine players happy is going to be difficult, particularly with none of them near retirement age which would allow for organic squad progression. Leinster can probably keep everyone for now with one year deals etc but something will give in summer 2022.

I’m pretty sure every year for the last few years someone here has made a similar statement. The reality is between injuries and Ireland call ups there is room for plenty of back rows. That said I’d not be shocked at one moving on but I’m sure they also look at Jordi and Mc Grath going north and think that the grass may not be greener.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Off wiki:

Jack Conan
Will Connors
Max Deegan
Caelan Doris
Dan Leavy
Josh Murphy
Scott Penny
Rhys Ruddock
Josh van der Flier

Keeping nine players happy is going to be difficult, particularly with none of them near retirement age which would allow for organic squad progression. Leavy and Deegan's injuries have allowed other players to step in at times. Leinster can probably keep everyone for now with one year deals etc but something will give in summer 2022. Healthy competition for places to say the least!

At least 4 will be involved each week. During international windows at least 3 will be away with Ireland, if not 4, and those same players will have mandated rest times then too. So effectively thats 4 in a match day squad and 2 or 3 unavailable most weeks. So with the exception of some of the big weeks we will be easily able to account for 6 or 7 of those 9. And that's without factoring in injury.

As you said, keeping them all happy in terms of the type of game time they are getting will be tricky. But others have left and not been able to make a huge success of it. Worse again, some have left and seen their careers worse off for it. So for those 1 or 2 that might be tempted to head off, the decision isn't made any easier by the guys that have gone before.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Well not necessarily. We've seen both Doris and Conan move to 6 to accommodate the other at 8. We haven't had all our back rows fit at the same time in order to identify the plan the coaches have for who plays where. But we have seen Doris-Conan start at 6 and 8 ahead of Ruddock previously.

I dont think its a straight forward call at this stage. Especially with so many of our back rows being selected by Ireland. We effectively need at least 3 in each back row position as cover. More in some cases (VDF and Connors away with Ireland means we need 4 7s). Theres room in the squad for them. The question becomes whether Deegan is happy to fight it out with the others for selection in the bigger games or not. And can we afford all of them, even on a reduced salary.

How many teams do you think can afford to keep 3 senior players in every single back row position?

Is it the best use of funds to pay a senior salary for the 3rd choice player rather than relying on academy players / multi-positional players to cover when they are needed, like most teams are forced to do?

It is hard to see how on one hand the IRFU can claim funds are tight, while on the other hand fund Leinster's grossly deep depth chart.

AdamD

awec wrote: »

How many teams do you think can afford to keep 3 senior players in every single back row position?

Does it matter if Leinster can? Should they just not resign them to make other teams feel better?

How many other teams lose more than a full back row to international duty during every window?

Dubinusa

I reckon if the funds are tight and wage reduction could be a possibility, some lads could look to go to England or France. Keeping all of them would be tough and then there's the match time issue. I think a lad like Deegan is too good to settle for 3rd choice 8? Similarly, Penny might not like the look of his career path. Leavy and VDF are the elders at 7 and they are still quite young. It will be interesting to see this play out.

bayern

Dubinusa wrote: »

I reckon if the funds are tight and wage reduction could be a possibility, some lads could look to go to England or France. Keeping all of them would be tough and then there's the match time issue. I think a lad like Deegan is too good to settle for 3rd choice 8? Similarly, Penny might not like the look of his career path. Leavy and VDF are the elders at 7 and they are still quite young. It will be interesting to see this play out.

Penny is 21, his career is just starting.

Something will given eventually not this season, thanks to injury and covid.

jacothelad

thomond2006 wrote: »

Off wiki:

Jack Conan
Will Connors
Max Deegan
Caelan Doris
Dan Leavy
Josh Murphy
Scott Penny
Rhys Ruddock
Josh van der Flier

Keeping nine players happy is going to be difficult, particularly with none of them near retirement age which would allow for organic squad progression. Leavy and Deegan's injuries have allowed other players to step in at times. Leinster can probably keep everyone for now with one year deals etc but something will give in summer 2022. Healthy competition for places to say the least!

I would imagine that given the history of the success of the Academy that there are probably one or two great prospects waiting in the wings also.

bayern

jacothelad wrote: »

I would imagine that given the history of the success of the Academy that there are probably one or two great prospects waiting in the wings also.

not at the moment.. potentially in a season or two

Exclamation Marc

Dubinusa wrote: »

I reckon if the funds are tight and wage reduction could be a possibility, some lads could look to go to England or France.

I don't know about this, I'm sure they all have aspirations of central contracts and playing for Ireland which obviously vanish if abroad.

There's not many players who've left these shores and come back into the international fold assuming they do have international ambitions. Obviously some have like Sexton and Beirne but Marty Moore or Ian Madigan are good examples of players in the Irish set up who left and never made it back. And with the huge number of backs in the fold, staying in the country even at a reduced salary may be more in their longer term interests.

salmocab

I’m sure all clubs or at least most are looking to keep costs down at the moment. I wouldn’t be overly concerned about moves abroad, if the current issues were confined to Ireland it might be a big deal but all clubs have bee affected.

Exclamation Marc

salmocab wrote: »

I’m sure all clubs or at least most are looking to keep costs down at the moment. I wouldn’t be overly concerned about moves abroad, if the current issues were confined to Ireland it might be a big deal but all clubs have bee affected.

Ulster signed Leone Nakarawa for next year so clearly finances aren't that bad.

That's not a crack at Ulster either, just an assumption that a team wouldn't be signing a prodigious international talent if things were that tight.

awec

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Ulster signed Leone Nakarawa for next year so clearly finances aren't that bad.

That's not a crack at Ulster either, just an assumption that a team wouldn't be signing a prodigious international talent if things were that tight.

I would imagine Nakarawa is not that expensive these days, and Coetzee also left a year earlier than he was supposed to.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

How many teams do you think can afford to keep 3 senior players in every single back row position?

Is it the best use of funds to pay a senior salary for the 3rd choice player rather than relying on academy players / multi-positional players to cover when they are needed, like most teams are forced to do?

It is hard to see how on one hand the IRFU can claim funds are tight, while on the other hand fund Leinster's grossly deep depth chart.

So Leinster should be left short because ????? The reason Leinster have that depth chart is because we need it. Think of this weekend. Ruddock, VDF, Connors and Doris are all with Ireland. Penny and Deegan are injured. That leaves Murphy, Leavy and Conan in the back row. Should Leinster lose 1 or more of those and be left fielding Academy players unlike any other team in the country just because we're producing more Irish players than everyone else, ie be punished for developing guys for the national side?

Buer

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Ulster signed Leone Nakarawa for next year so clearly finances aren't that bad.

Nakarawa is a soon to be 33 year old who hasn't started a game in almost a year and was fired by his team prior to that for going MIA.

He ain't costing much. I would suggest they're signing Nakarawa and able to extend a couple of other contracts with the money saved from a year of Coetzee's salary.

aloooof

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

I don't know about this, I'm sure they all have aspirations of central contracts and playing for Ireland which obviously vanish if abroad.

There's not many players who've left these shores and come back into the international fold assuming they do have international ambitions. Obviously some have like Sexton and Beirne but Marty Moore or Ian Madigan are good examples of players in the Irish set up who left and never made it back. And with the huge number of backs in the fold, staying in the country even at a reduced salary may be more in their longer term interests.

I’m sure they do have aspirations of playing for Ireland, but perhaps even more so due to Covid, players will have to think of their financial security.

You mention Madigan as an example who never made it back into the Irish setup, but I very much doubt he regrets his decision based on the reported salaries he was getting which was likely multiples more than he was getting at Leinster.

There’s likely reduced offers across the board, but I’d wager a reduced offer from France could still be a lot more than what they’re offered at home.

bayern

aloooof wrote: »

I’m sure they do have aspirations of playing for Ireland, but perhaps even more so due to Covid, players will have to think of their financial security.

You mention Madigan as an example who never made it back into the Irish setup, but I very much doubt he regrets his decision based on the reported salaries he was getting which was likely multiples more than he was getting at Leinster.

There’s likely reduced offers across the board, but I’d wager a reduced offer from France could still be a lot more than what they’re offered at home.

Why would you move to France to be in lockdown?

aloooof

bayern wrote: »

Why would you move to France to be in lockdown?

Money. I’ve literally said as much in the post you’ve quoted.

bayern

aloooof wrote: »

Money. I’ve literally said as much in the post you’ve quoted.

luckily leinster players have more loyalty than you seem to think.

aloooof

bayern wrote: »

luckily leinster players have more loyalty than you seem to think.

So you think it would be disloyal if a player left to secure his financial security for him and his family? Was Madigan disloyal when he left for a 600k salary?

Which do you think would more important in a player’s decision?

(Honestly feels like there’s something in the water on this place at the moment....)

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

So Leinster should be left short because ????? The reason Leinster have that depth chart is because we need it. Think of this weekend. Ruddock, VDF, Connors and Doris are all with Ireland. Penny and Deegan are injured. That leaves Murphy, Leavy and Conan in the back row. Should Leinster lose 1 or more of those and be left fielding Academy players unlike any other team in the country just because we're producing more Irish players than everyone else, ie be punished for developing guys for the national side?

You cannot go on about being left "short" when you talk about Leinster being down 5 players, yet still fielding a back row that contains 2 test players.

That's a bit tone deaf.

thomond2006

aloooof wrote: »

So you think it would be disloyal if a player left to secure his financial security for him and his family? Was Madigan disloyal when he left for a 600k salary?

Which do you think would more important in a player’s decision?

(Honestly feels like there’s something in the water on this place at the moment....)

Michael Owen put it quite well once.

Fans never leave a club, they will always have "the badge".

Players cannot think like fans. If a team wants "loyalty", they need to offer a contract and opportunities that warrant loyalty. Players owe nothing beyond the length of their contract.

The fans who demand "loyalty" I assume would never leave a job for better conditions elsewhere, of course!

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

The fans who demand "loyalty" I assume would never leave a job for better conditions elsewhere, of course!

You became a Leinster season ticket holder.

Turncoat.

bayern

aloooof wrote: »

So you think it would be disloyal if a player left to secure his financial security for him and his family? Was Madigan disloyal when he left for a 600k salary?

Which do you think would more important in a player’s decision?

(Honestly feels like there’s something in the water on this place at the moment....)

No I wouldnt consider disloyal.. but luckily for leinster, many players value playing for their home province and living where they are from and that loyalty means players have chosen to stay at leinster over moving for more money.. i'm not going to complain about this as a leinster fan, nor would I complain if a leinster player decided that financially a move abroad was best for him and his family. Players have to make the best decision for them, year on year many of them consider that to be staying at leinster despite IRFU interference and bigger financial offers abroad

Squidgy Black

Rugby careers can be cut short at any stage, look at the likes of Barry Daly or even Brendan Macken, both retired now and they're not even 30.

I wouldn't blame any player at all for wanting to earn as much as they can to try and help themselves/their families out, particularly if it's a difference of up to 6 figures a year for someone who might be looking at a contract in France or the Premiership vs being stuck at 3rd choice for Leinster hoping that they catch a break.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

You cannot go on about being left "short" when you talk about Leinster being down 5 players, yet still fielding a back row that contains 2 test players.

That's a bit tone deaf.

It doesn't matter whether they are test players or not. Numbers are numbers. Numbers don't care about Test appearances. We need more because we lose more to Ireland. What we have are guys with Test appearances. Should we be punished for developing guys at that level?

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether they are test players or not. Numbers are numbers. Numbers don't care about Test appearances. We need more because we lose more to Ireland. What we have are guys with Test appearances. Should we be punished for developing guys at that level?

Nobody is talking about punishment, but the "being left short" argument doesn't wash.

It reminds me of that clip of Padraig Flynn talking about how hard it is to run his two houses on his massive salary.

Of course it matters that they are test players btw. Having 9 senior players of which 5 or 6 are established internationals is going to cost a whole lot more than having 5 or 6 senior players and a bunch of cheapos, like every other team is expected to make do with.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

... , like every other team is expected to make do with.

Expected??

Go develop your own players, that's what's expected

Lost Ormond

sydthebeat wrote: »

Expected??

Go develop your own players, that's what's expected

Easy to say that when no other side around has the amount of fee paying schools that can put thousands into rugby as well as what the province does themselves with the clubs and smaller non fee paying schools.

awec

sydthebeat wrote: »

Expected??

Go develop your own players, that's what's expected

Do home grown developed play for free or something?

I mean it’s one thing to produce players, but then you need the money to pay them all. Is anyone really naive enough to think these lads are all playing for a pittance?

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

Expected??

Go develop your own players, that's what's expected

Sure.

Just give the other provinces the same playing population and funded school system and we'll be on our way.