Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

aloooof

bayern wrote: »

No I wouldnt consider disloyal.. but luckily for leinster, many players value playing for their home province and living where they are from and that loyalty means players have chosen to stay at leinster over moving for more money.. i'm not going to complain about this as a leinster fan, nor would I complain if a leinster player decided that financially a move abroad was best for him and his family. Players have to make the best decision for them, year on year many of them consider that to be staying at leinster despite IRFU interference and bigger financial offers abroad

Many do. Some don’t. Which is exactly all that was being said.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

Do home grown developed play for free or something?

I mean it’s one thing to produce players, but then you need the money to pay them all. Is anyone really naive enough to think these lads are all playing for a pittance?

Chicken and egg

Develop players, win, get cash rewards.... Pay players.

Leinster have the lowest amount of NIQs of all the provinces because they develop their own squad.

Who is living beyond their means I wonder??

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Nobody is talking about punishment, but the "being left short" argument doesn't wash.

It reminds me of that clip of Padraig Flynn talking about how hard it is to run his two houses on his massive salary.

Of course it matters that they are test players btw. Having 9 senior players of which 5 or 6 are established internationals is going to cost a whole lot more than having 5 or 6 senior players and a bunch of cheapos, like every other team is expected to make do with.

Being left short is pure numbers. If we had to drop 1 or 2 backrows then we would be fecked during international windows. Not because of quality of players, but because of pure numbers of them. You're upset that those players happen to be Test quality, but the numbers are the same regardless of quality.

Every other team isn't expected to make do with anything other than what they've developed and what they can sign within the IRFUs limits. Exactly the same as Leinster. We just happen to develop more and better. But again, the numbers don't change. We need a certain number. Regardless of level or ability.

You seem to want us to have to dip into our Academy at times when others don't have to. You want 2 rules. One for everyone else, who get to keep who they develop and bring in others to bolster that, and one for Leinster, where they aren't even allowed keep who they develop. Punish Leinster for developing too many for Ireland by ensuring they can't keep them. Put them at an immediate disadvantage for having the gall to be successful. Its utterly daft.

Dave_The_Sheep

There is a middle ground, I'm sure.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

Chicken and egg

Develop players, win, get cash rewards.... Pay players.

Leinster have the lowest amount of NIQs of all the provinces because they develop their own squad.

Who is living beyond their means I wonder??

Leinster have one less NIE than Munster because "they develop their own squad"?

pickarooney

Bit of a.confusing message to send young players. "Congratulations, you've been doing well, here's a senior contract! But don't actually keep playing too well or we can't afford to keep you."

Neil3030

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

There is a middle ground, I'm sure.

It's called Laois. Never go there.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have one less NIE than Munster because "they develop their own squad"?

Absolutely....
And develop a significant portion of the other three provincial clubs while at it as well.

This whole argument stinks of "equality of outcome over equality of opportunity" to me.

Should leinster have a bigger budget for wages? 100% they should. They have been the most successful Irish club over the last 10 years. They have developed the most players who have gone on to represent their country.... And they have provided a significant number of higher standard players to the other provinces in that time as well.

If there is no reward for this, then what the hell is the point??

Buer

Jealousy is a terrible thing.

bayern

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have one less NIE than Munster because "they develop their own squad"?

Players not from Munster in Munster senior squad:
Loughman(L), Marshall(NZ), Knox(SA), Salanoa(L), Kleyn(SA), Beirne(L), Synman(SA), Stander(SA), Cloete(SA), McCarthy(L), Patterson(L), Carbery(L), Farrell(U), De Allende(SA), Conway(L), Gallagher(ENG), Haley(ENG).

Players not from Leinster in Leinster senior squad:
Bent(NZ), Cronin(M), Fardy(AUS), Gibson-Park(NA), Henshaw(C)*, Lowe(NZ)

* from Leinster, but came through Connacht setup.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

Absolutely....
And develop a significant portion of the other three provincial clubs while at it as well.

This whole argument stinks of "equality of outcome over equality of opportunity" to me.

Should leinster have a bigger budget for wages? 100% they should. They have been the most successful Irish club over the last 10 years. They have developed the most players who have gone on to represent their country.... And they have provided a significant number of higher standard players to the other provinces in that time as well.

If there is no reward for this, then what the hell is the point??

Well there's a hint of ignoring (one of the primary reasons) why Leinster develop more players isn't there.

If all the provinces had the same resources, that is exactly what equality of opportunity is.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Should leinster have a bigger budget for wages? 100% they should. They have been the most successful Irish club over the last 10 years. They have developed the most players who have gone on to represent their country....

Playing devil's advocate here, but part of the reason Saracens breached the salary cap is because of the higher number of players they developed who became England internationals, who could then command England International levels of salary. Should they have been allowed a bigger budget?

(Just to emphasise the 'devil's advocate' part of my post before I get hammered. Yes they absolutely took the piss as well).

I'm not sure I'd say 'punished' but would Leinster be disadvantaged by having their 3rd choice, but Test level player move to another province? Yes.

But equally Nucifora may take the view that having a Test level player as 3rd choice is a bigger disadvantage to Ireland, and that's a bigger issue.

bayern

aloooof wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate here, but part of the reason Saracens breached the salary cap is because of the higher number of players they developed who became England internationals, who could then command England International levels of salary. Should they have been allowed a bigger budget?

(Just to emphasise the 'devil's advocate' part of my post before I get hammered. Yes they absolutely took the piss as well).

I'm not sure I'd say 'punished' but would Leinster be disadvantaged by having their 3rd choice, but Test level player move to another province? Yes.

But equally Nucifora may take the view that having a Test level player as 3rd choice is a bigger disadvantage to Ireland, and that's a bigger issue.

bigger disadvantage that Munster/Ulster/Connacht can't develop many homegrown starters that are test level players.

moving intls from leinster to the other provinces has really worked out just ask Jack McGrath and Jordi Murphy.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate here, but part of the reason Saracens breached the salary cap is because of the higher number of players they developed who became England internationals, who could then command England International levels of salary. Should they have been allowed a bigger budget?

(Just to emphasise the 'devil's advocate' part of my post before I get hammered. Yes they absolutely took the piss as well).

I'm not sure I'd say 'punished' but would Leinster be disadvantaged by having their 3rd choice, but Test level player move to another province? Yes.

But equally Nucifora may take the view that having a Test level player as 3rd choice is a bigger disadvantage to Ireland, and that's a bigger issue.

Yep, I totally get that position and its absolutely right. I've no issue with guys moving elsewhere if they think its the best thing for their career or international ambitions or whatever. This is not, for me at least, about saying we should have Test quality players right thebway down our depth chart. Its nothing more than saying we need a deeper depth chart than others because we lose more than others. As I said, pure numbers.

Leinster will need to work within a budget like everyone else. Should that budget be larger because they contribute more to Ireland? IMO yes, otherwise they are operating for large parts of the year on less than the other provinces. Does that mean that the IRFU should have to pony up for Test level type salaries across the board? No. But how Leinster choose to apportion the salaries budget and whether players are happy to take the reductions put forward are the variables that I was talking about earlier. Maybe Deegan would be happy to take the hit for 1 year given his injury and the fact that he has already gotten a cap for Ireland in the position he's in now. Maybe not.

bayern

Andy Farrell talking about moving Porter to loose during 6 nations

However, Farrell has hinted that Porter may be looked at on the loosehead side again at some stage.

“There are all sorts of different scenarios that can unfold regarding the front row,” said Farrell yesterday.

“We’ve talked openly for some time about Andrew Porter but, at the same time, making sure that we are fair and proper to him, so he’s crystal clear whether he’s going tighthead or loosehead.

“Obviously there’s an option now, if Tadhg does come back through, that we can reassess that.

“Obviously Tadhg is going to take a little bit of time to get his feet back under the table so we’re trying to leave it open enough to mix things up a little bit along the way.”

aloooof

bayern wrote: »

bigger disadvantage that Munster/Ulster/Connacht can't develop many homegrown starters that are test level players.

moving intls from leinster to the other provinces has really worked out just ask Jack McGrath and Jordi Murphy.

Looking at it the other way, look at the backrow players that have emerged since Jordi left. That move was likely to Leinster's benefit.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

Looking at it the other way, look at the backrow players that have emerged since Jordi left. That move was likely to Leinster's benefit.

i dunno...

would i have preferred a 30 capped 27 yo jordi murphy coming off the bench in the 2019 HC final than an uncapped Max Deegan ????

easy answer there.....

swings and roundabouts. The other provinces are patently improved by leinster developed players.. its the rising tide lifting everyone. And yes i fully appreciate the fantastic schools system which feed into the leinster system as well.

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

And yes i fully appreciate the fantastic schools system which feed into the leinster system as well.

Finally.

bayern

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dunno...

would i have preferred a 30 capped 27 yo jordi murphy coming off the bench in the 2019 HC final than an uncapped Max Deegan ????

easy answer there.....

swings and roundabouts. The other provinces are patently improved by leinster developed players.. its the rising tide lifting everyone. And yes i fully appreciate the fantastic schools system which feed into the leinster system as well.

But it helped Jordi get more international caps??? Oh wait, no it didn't.

bayern

thomond2006 wrote: »

Finally.

Ah yes Leinster rugby have absolutely no influence on rugby played in the schools in the province, haven't improved coaching and standards there or coached the best young talent from a young age

It's all just population and money. That's how rugby is decided now and that whys the great Munster side of the 2000s will never be beaten. :rolleyes:

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Finally.

absolutely nothing to do with the IRFUs ability to offer opportunity

do you understand this point at all?

Kirk Van Houten

Comrades - while you are all about the due fairness for Leinster maybe we could also discuss the equality for the other provinces for things such as population base, private school systems and socioeconomic benefits of a capital city.

bayern

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Comrades - while you are all about the due fairness for Leinster maybe we could also discuss the equality for the other provinces for things such as population base, private school systems and socioeconomic benefits of a capital city.

it's all so unfair leinster have more people and more money.

No wonder munster have lost 9 of the last 10 games against them, they've gotten bitter not better down in Limerick.

aloooof

bayern wrote: »

But it helped Jordi get more international caps??? Oh wait, no it didn't.

But why didn't he stay out of #loyalty tho?

sydthebeat

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Comrades - while you are all about the due fairness for Leinster maybe we could also discuss the equality for the other provinces for things such as population base, private school systems and socioeconomic benefits of a capital city.

please point to which of those the IRFU, as employers, have unfairly divested away from 3 provinces to leinster??

aloooof

bayern wrote: »

But it helped Jordi get more international caps??? Oh wait, no it didn't.

It helped Doris get more international caps. You can look at it both ways.

bayern

aloooof wrote: »

But why didn't stay out of #loyalty tho?

Because he had to what he thought was best for his career, just because he left didn't mean he didn't have loyalty to his home province.

thomond2006

bayern wrote: »

it's all so unfair leinster have more people and more money.

No wonder munster have lost 9 of the last 10 games against them, they've gotten bitter not better down in Limerick.

It's not a case of being unfair. It's a case of some refusing to acknowledge the impact it has.

Don't worry about Munster. Just enjoy how well Leinster are doing.

sydthebeat wrote: »

please point to which of those the IRFU, as employers, have unfairly divested away from 3 provinces to leinster??

It's not about divesting resources.

Leinster have a huge advantage because of the schools system that is for the most part privately funded. They receive well-developed players. It's hardly a controversial statement. This point seems to be twisted into not giving Leinster credit, which isn't the case. Leinster have done well.

bayern

Anyway talking about the game on Saturday, possible side for Scarlets:

1. Dooley
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Molony
5. Baird
6. Murphy
7. Leavy
8. Conan
9. McGrath
10. HB
11. Kearney
12. Frawley
13. Turner
14. Kelleher
15. ?????

Fullback will be difficult given injuries. O'Reilly doesn't look ready for this level.

bayern

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have a huge advantage because of the schools system that is for the most part privately funded. They receive well-developed players. It's hardly a controversial statement.

you'd swear Munster don't get most of their players from privately funded schools.