Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Richie_Rich89

Scottmactom wrote: »

There is a huge drop from Ryan to Toner in terms of carrying and physicality.

Surely it's Fardy you should be comparing Ryan to as the starting pair, everyone fit, was likely to be Ryan and Toner, not Ryan and Fardy?

irishbucsfan

Dunney848 wrote: »

I don’t think the way Sexton defends suits Saracens. It gives them go forward ball. He tries to hold players up and that simply puts you marching backwards against Saracens with Itoje and the Vunipolas blasting up the 10 channel. The only problem is who do we have to replace him? Byrne defends the exact same way.

I’d be wary of starting Baird in such a game but it might be exactly what we need. Bit of go forward and pace up front. For me he starts from the bench with Toner and Fardy our 2 starting locks. He might come on and change the game or he might get swallowed up. My feeling is that it will be the former if he gets a chance.

Then there’s Leavy. I thought we missed him in the final of the Heineken cup against Saracens but I think it is far too soon for him to throw him into such a big game. It will take him a season to get back to where he was before injury and he needs to be played in as many Pro14 matches as he is available for.

Sexton doesn’t hold players up in the 10 channel without superior support. He’s not as simple as that.

Dunney848

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sexton doesn’t hold players up in the 10 channel without superior support. He’s not as simple as that.

Well he certainly doesn’t put them back on their arses in the tackle. It’s a weakness in his game which people are too willing to overlook because of what he’s done in the past. He had a shockingly bad game against England in the 6 nations and was in poor form before the virus hit. Any continuation of that form against Sarries and we lose.

irishbucsfan

Dunney848 wrote: »

Well he certainly doesn’t put them back on their arses in the tackle. It’s a weakness in his game which people are too willing to overlook because of what he’s done in the past. He had a shockingly bad game against England in the 6 nations and was in poor form before the virus hit. Any continuation of that form against Sarries and we lose.

So you want our 10 to be able to put big midfielders and loose forwards back on their arse when they carry down that channel. Are there any other normal realistic expectations you have? :pac:

Buer

Must have been another Sexton that smashed Carl Fearns this season.

He's not known for smashing players backwards because a) Ireland and Leinster have often employed a tactic of holding up the carrier to effect a turnover with Henshaw and D'Arcy doubling in and b) he's a bloody outhalf. Generally, the only outhalves who "smash" opposition players are the guys that have done it illegally.

If an outhalf is stopping the opposition getting past him, he's doing his job (and probably more than a number of outhalves out there who get blown out of the way or fall off tackles regularly).

Quin_Dub

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So you want our 10 to be able to put big midfielders and loose forwards back on their arse when they carry down that channel. Are there any other normal realistic expectations you have? :pac:

To be fair , the underlying point isn't necessarily wrong.

Sexton would be better trying to chop tackle and just put his opponent down rather than primarily going for the higher choke style tackle. It would be better for him personally and with a bit of adjustment around him , better for the teams defensive pattern in general.

He's a very good defender , better than most in that position , but some adjustments to his style could benefit all.

Yes the risk of offloads increases a bit , but that's where the adjustment come in having a back-row and the 12 covering that risk as they come across.

stephen_n

Quin_Dub wrote: »

To be fair , the underlying point isn't necessarily wrong.

Sexton would be better trying to chop tackle and just put his opponent down rather than primarily going for the higher choke style tackle. It would be better for him personally and with a bit of adjustment around him , better for the teams defensive pattern in general.

He's a very good defender , better than most in that position , but some adjustments to his style could benefit all.

Yes the risk of offloads increases a bit , but that's where the adjustment come in having a back-row and the 12 covering that risk as they come across.

If we don’t slow the ball down in the midfield it affects our defense out wide. If it was simply a matter of one on one defense, chop tackles would be effective. Not sure if our system is built around Sextons strength in that area, but it’s certainly suits the way we defend as a team.

clsmooth

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So you want our 10 to be able to put big midfielders and loose forwards back on their arse when they carry down that channel. Are there any other normal realistic expectations you have? :pac:

Is there an argument for Will Connors at 10 anybody? :eek:

irishbucsfan

Quin_Dub wrote: »

To be fair , the underlying point isn't necessarily wrong.

Sexton would be better trying to chop tackle and just put his opponent down rather than primarily going for the higher choke style tackle. It would be better for him personally and with a bit of adjustment around him , better for the teams defensive pattern in general.

He's a very good defender , better than most in that position , but some adjustments to his style could benefit all.

Yes the risk of offloads increases a bit , but that's where the adjustment come in having a back-row and the 12 covering that risk as they come across.

Not really sure at all how a chop tackle would be better for him personally, they're high risk from an injury perspective. They'd also lead to much higher quality attacking ball for opposition teams (I'd love your idea if I was a Saracen forward), so I'd say he'll happily stick to what he's doing.

He's a 10. His defense is not a key part of his game. But he also happens to be a strong defender there. There's no real 10 in the world of international rugby who is much better than him.

Of all the reasons to be concerned about Sexton, his defense is not one of them.

thomond2006

Aren't chop tackles a penalty offence now?

Quin_Dub

thomond2006 wrote: »

Aren't chop tackles a penalty offence now?

Only if you don't wrap your arms.

sydthebeat

actually a soak tackle at 10 can often be a better solution.

it attracts attackers into the contact area, allows defense a second or two more to align and spread.

if a 10 chop tackles and creates a ruck immediately that attracts defenders in, allows for a quicker clean out and more space outside

VANG1

How many medals and trophies has Johnny won? Puts his body on the line every time and you say he can’t tackle. You need to learn a bit more about the game.

Former Former

If Sexton could avoid knocking himself out in those tackles, there would be no issue.

Overall, he's probably the best defensive OH since Jonny Wilkinson.

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

If Sexton could avoid knocking himself out in those tackles, there would be no issue.

Overall, he's probably the best defensive OH since Jonny Wilkinson.

When was the last time Sexton was KO'd in the tackle ?

arsebiscuits1

Deleted User wrote: »

When was the last time Sexton was KO'd in the tackle ?

Years ago.

Didn't he come off against Exeter in the beginning of the game? This would have been December '17

arsebiscuits1

Dunney848 wrote: »

Well he certainly doesn’t put them back on their arses in the tackle. It’s a weakness in his game which people are too willing to overlook because of what he’s done in the past. He had a shockingly bad game against England in the 6 nations and was in poor form before the virus hit. Any continuation of that form against Sarries and we lose.

You accuse people of being too willing to overlook something while actively overlooking a glaring fact yourself - Sexton is a far superior tackler than 90% of his peers at 10.

Farrell is probably the standout defensive 10 in the world. Aside from his high profile shoulder charges, Farrell is an incredibly effective tackler and an all around tough bastard

Biggar is a very effective tackler but not amazing. Favours going for the waist high and is prone to shipping some big bumps.

Finn Russell doesn't come into the equation as he fits more in the mould of being on the pitch in spite of his defensive capabilities. I'd have the French options like Ntamack in this category too.

The Aussies don't even have a word for a defensive 10. A very common tactic for them is to hide them in the wider channels and has been for years

Pollard is a reasonably good tackler. Probably on par with Sexton. Has a similar technique in favouring the trying to get them high.

The likes of Mo'unga and Barrett are technically excellent tacklers - but certainly do not offer the physicality that Farrell or Sexton or even Biggar give you.

AdamD

Barrett's an unbelievable scramble defender

Dunney848

stephen_n wrote: »

If we don’t slow the ball down in the midfield it affects our defense out wide. If it was simply a matter of one on one defense, chop tackles would be effective. Not sure if our system is built around Sextons strength in that area, but it’s certainly suits the way we defend as a team.

It gets us marching backwards defensively immediately off whichever phase they run up his channel. Granted he more often than not stops the momentum but on 20% of the tackles where another attacker latches on and drives forward it puts our team in a compromised situation.

Dunney848

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So you want our 10 to be able to put big midfielders and loose forwards back on their arse when they carry down that channel. Are there any other normal realistic expectations you have? :pac:

Farrell does it and it gives the team a massive boost if you have defenders knocking players backwards. I also believe Farrell is better attacking at this late point in johnnies career and Johnny gets flooored most of the time he tries to draw a defender.

It’s not a game plan that instilled confidence in a team seeing your outhalf being floored for most of the game. Anyway he has been the best player in the world I’m not making this a debate about his merits just to say he might be teetering on the point of liability to the team in physical games at this late stage in his career.

He doesn’t know when he’s beat and that’s a great attribute to have but there is a point you have to call it a day

Dog Botherer

probably the best ever defensive 10, certainly in the pro era anyway, was Wilkinson, and he paid a heavy toll for it in the form of countless injuries. Farrell also runs a big risk with his high shoulder hits, someday he’s going to cost England or Saracens a game with them.

Sexton is a very competent and brave defender. people certainly have short memories given his predecessor’s, uh, frailties.

AbusesToilets

Dunney848 wrote: »

Well he certainly doesn’t put them back on their arses in the tackle. It’s a weakness in his game which people are too willing to overlook because of what he’s done in the past. He had a shockingly bad game against England in the 6 nations and was in poor form before the virus hit. Any continuation of that form against Sarries and we lose.

Same Sexton who would be stopping Bastareud in his tracks when they played back in the day? He's the epitome of defensive strength in the 10 channel.

stephen_n

Dunney848 wrote: »

It gets us marching backwards defensively immediately off whichever phase they run up his channel. Granted he more often than not stops the momentum but on 20% of the tackles where another attacker latches on and drives forward it puts our team in a compromised situation.

It isn’t a compromised situation though if we know have 8 forwards in the defensive line. Conceding a few yards in the soak is preferable to getting hit out wide. The difference a few seconds can make at setting a defense in top level rugby is massive.

Richie_Rich89

Dunney848 wrote: »

I don’t think the way Sexton defends suits Saracens. It gives them go forward ball. He tries to hold players up and that simply puts you marching backwards against Saracens with Itoje and the Vunipolas blasting up the 10 channel. The only problem is who do we have to replace him? Byrne defends the exact same way.

I’d be wary of starting Baird in such a game but it might be exactly what we need. Bit of go forward and pace up front. For me he starts from the bench with Toner and Fardy our 2 starting locks. He might come on and change the game or he might get swallowed up. My feeling is that it will be the former if he gets a chance.

Then there’s Leavy. I thought we missed him in the final of the Heineken cup against Saracens but I think it is far too soon for him to throw him into such a big game. It will take him a season to get back to where he was before injury and he needs to be played in as many Pro14 matches as he is available for.

Stick Connors in at openside to make some dominant tackles in and around that channel.

Shefwedfan

Dunney848 wrote: »

Farrell does it and it gives the team a massive boost if you have defenders knocking players backwards. I also believe Farrell is better attacking at this late point in johnnies career and Johnny gets flooored most of the time he tries to draw a defender.

It’s not a game plan that instilled confidence in a team seeing your outhalf being floored for most of the game. Anyway he has been the best player in the world I’m not making this a debate about his merits just to say he might be teetering on the point of liability to the team in physical games at this late stage in his career.

He doesn’t know when he’s beat and that’s a great attribute to have but there is a point you have to call it a day

Sexton was by a distance the best 10 in European rugby last year till his injury. I didn't see any loss of confidence by Leinster as they steam rolled Northampton with Sexton critical in the away game

Dunney848

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Stick Connors in at openside to make some dominant tackles in and around that channel.

I would but 95% of Connors tackles are around the ankles. It’s a misnomer that he makes so many dominant tackles.

Point is if we do an audit of our weaknesses there are many areas a team like Sarries or England (international) can beat us. I think Ringrose goes for the winding arc too much also on the outside shoulder when the flat direct route against these teams gets us going forward in the wider channels.

These are players which are our strongest players but people on forums lash into you if you are in any way analytical or critical of their weaknesses. There are some players where criticism is off limits but if we are to take a cold sober look at ourselves could do tiny amendments to their games that could change the course of matches

molloyjh

Dunney848 wrote: »

I would but 95% of Connors tackles are around the ankles. It’s a misnomer that he makes so many dominant tackles.

Point is if we do an audit of our weaknesses there are many areas a team like Sarries or England (international) can beat us. I think Ringrose goes for the winding arc too much also on the outside shoulder when the flat direct route against these teams gets us going forward in the wider channels.

These are players which are our strongest players but people on forums lash into you if you are in any way analytical or critical of their weaknesses. There are some players where criticism is off limits but if we are to take a cold sober look at ourselves could do tiny amendments to their games that could change the course of matches

If you do an audit of the weaknesses of any team on earth you can find ways to beat them. That's exactly what anyone would expect from analysing weaknesses. Every team and player has them. Is Sextons tackle technique something that has its positives and negatives? Of course. Few are actually arguing that. What they are arguing is the overall relevance of having issues with a 10 defensively when there are few 10s better in that area. If Billy V goes down any 10s channel he's going to have success. There has to be an element of realism to the audit....

Shefwedfan

Dunney848 wrote: »

I would but 95% of Connors tackles are around the ankles. It’s a misnomer that he makes so many dominant tackles.

Point is if we do an audit of our weaknesses there are many areas a team like Sarries or England (international) can beat us. I think Ringrose goes for the winding arc too much also on the outside shoulder when the flat direct route against these teams gets us going forward in the wider channels.

These are players which are our strongest players but people on forums lash into you if you are in any way analytical or critical of their weaknesses. There are some players where criticism is off limits but if we are to take a cold sober look at ourselves could do tiny amendments to their games that could change the course of matches

If anything this website is overly critical, if you read this forum you would think ireland are the worst team in world yet we are in the top teams for many years jiw

Squidgy Black

Zero positive tests from the latest round of Covid testing after the team have been back training two weeks is a decent sign

Scottmactom

Team only got back training on monday, they were off for two weeks before that.