Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Rockbeast2

aloooof wrote: »

Who did this?

C'mon, you know exactly who did that.

aloooof

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

C'mon, you know exactly who did that.

Presumably you mean Graham Henry, then? I think you're giving an awful lot of significance to one comment from someone who spent, what, 2 weeks with Leinster?

Rockbeast2

aloooof wrote: »

Presumably you mean Graham Henry, then? I think you're giving an awful lot of significance to one comment from someone who spent, what, 2 weeks with Leinster?

Henry? Lol

We both know Joe gave Carbery the whole "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven" spiel in order to encourage him to move to munster. And it backfired on him. Massively. On the player and Irish rugby, too.

aloooof

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Henry? Lol

We both know Joe gave Carbery the whole "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven" spiel in order to encourage him to move to munster. And it backfired on him. Massively. On the player and Irish rugby, too.

What exactly did Schmidt say?

In any case, the reality is Carbery had started more games at 10 by January in his first season at Munster than he did in the previous 2 full seasons at Leinster.

Rigor Mortis

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Henry? Lol

We both know Joe gave Carbery the whole "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven" spiel in order to encourage him to move to munster. And it backfired on him. Massively. On the player and Irish rugby, too.

How did the move backfire on him or Irish rugby?

Are you attributing Carberry's injury to something Munster did.

I'm happy to admit to a blind and immature Celtic - Rangers style dislike of Munster, but even mine doesnt stretch to ignoring the fact that JC hasnt had a chance to play rugby because he was rushed back for the World Cup.

I'm sure Van Grann has the potential to ruin Carberry, although i dont believe he will be the coach for long as soon as Larkham gets established. But to be fair, Munster have done nothing wrong to Carberry.

Rockbeast2

aloooof wrote: »

In any case, the reality is Carbery had started more games at 10 by January in his first season at Munster than he did in the previous 2 full seasons at Leinster.

I can't believe you actually typed that!

I can't believe I will actually dignify it with a reply:

That is called DEVELOPMENT!

Clearly, the concept of which is something beyond the grasp of munster rugby currently.

thomond2006

All this over props Leinster didn't need to keep. Note the word need.

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

What exactly did Schmidt say?

In any case, the reality is Carbery had started more games at 10 by January in his first season at Munster than he did in the previous 2 full seasons at Leinster.

He's a better FB than 10 anyway

Rockbeast2

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

How did the move backfire on him or Irish rugby?

Are you attributing Carberry's injury to something Munster did.

I'm happy to admit to a blind and immature Celtic - Rangers style dislike of Munster, but even mine doesnt stretch to ignoring the fact that JC hasnt had a chance to play rugby because he was rushed back for the World Cup.

I'm sure Van Grann has the potential to ruin Carberry, although i dont believe he will be the coach for long as soon as Larkham gets established. But to be fair, Munster have done nothing wrong to Carberry.

I am confident that I can objectively state that munster have not produced a starting Irish 15 player in 10+ years.

If that is not a major issue in Irish rugby, then I know nothing and I apologize to everyone.

aloooof

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

I can't believe you actually typed that!

I can't believe I will actually dignify it with a reply:

That is called DEVELOPMENT!

Clearly, the concept of which is something beyond the grasp of munster rugby currently.

So, hold on, to recap...

Carbery's head was pumped full of nonsense to get him to move to munster.
He has regressed as a player since then.
But he has started more times at 10 for Munster, which is DEVELOPMENT!.
And also something Schmidt supposedly said is a disaster??

Have I missed anything??

Anyways, Thomond's right, I'm out...

Buer

I'm disappointed to see the guys leave, particularly Aungier. But these are exceptional times. There are cuts being made throughout Irish rugby to balance the books, I expect. Munster have a couple of guys on their books who are essentially busts at tighthead in Parker and Brian Scott. They can be moved on and Salanoa brought in at probably less than either of the other two guys.

In Aungier, we'd a guy who is a potential Irish international. His work rate around the field has been very good and he was given opportunities in relatively high profile games which suggests there's a lot of faith in him. But we would have had 5 tightheads in the squad which is probably more than necessary even allowing for Porter and Furlong being absent.

Losing two guys is a blow though. It's essential that Bent stays on for another year which I expect him to given he's only 34 a few weeks ago. He has essentially been a dedicated tighthead in recent seasons and has been incredibly useful and valuable to the squad. Connacht are relatively light at tighthead in terms of quality. They have Bealham and DRMC who are reliable performers. After that, it's a bit of pot luck with Rory Burke and Conor Kenny never having actually started a game for Connacht. Aungier joins them with a higher profile and level of expectation around him. I think he should be aiming for a baptism of fire with approx 6-10 starts this season and probably enduring a roasting at times whilst developing his set piece.

There's no point in multiple players sitting and waiting for an opportunity whilst seasons tick past. The example of Donnacha Ryan (who started his first European game just short of turning 27) should be trotted out multiple times to these guys as someone who sat and waited for so long that his career in Ireland now looks very unfulfilled.

Rockbeast2

aloooof wrote: »

So, hold on, to recap...

Carbery's head was pumped full of nonsense to get him to move to munster.
He has regressed as a player since then.
But he has started more times at 10 for Munster, which is DEVELOPMENT!.
And also something Schmidt supposedly said is a disaster??

Have I missed anything??

Anyways, Thomond's right, I'm out...

LOL

Don't deliberately misinterpret me.

Carberry played less at Leinster because he was in the process of being developed.

thomond2006

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

LOL

Don't deliberately misinterpret me.

Carberry played less at Leinster because he was in the process of being developed.

That's probably news to all stakeholders in Carbery's move.

Rockbeast2

thomond2006 wrote: »

That's probably news to all stakeholders in Carbery's move.

Well, it was a disastrous move, unfortunately. For whatever reasons. Some might say bad luck. I hope he returns to fitness and gets a good run.

I'll get back to work before I find out I've been relocated to munster in my absence.

Shefwedfan

The Carbery move. I think it was done in panic mode by Ireland. If we look back at the end of 2016 season. Just came back from a very good if not successful tour of SA. PJ was in some peoples mind now favorite to start at 10 in 2017. So we had Sexton and PJ lined up for the next WC. Then everything happened and PJ was gone.

At that stage you had no real options across all the other provinces for different reasons. Madigan had left for France and it was panic mode. Really Ireland should of went back and got Madigan but they decided to go another route.

That was Carbery. From Leinster point of view Carbery was a 15, a second play maker to compliment Sexton/Byrne. If PJ was still in the picture I would expect Ireland would have went along with that point of view. But needs must and he was pushed to play 10. I am sure an interview with him after November internationals with BOD on Offtheball he mentioned his favorite position was 15. Soon after that the mantra was your a 10. As BOD said later on in the season, if Joe says yours a 10 and to move to Munster, your a 10 and you move to Munster.

I do think Carbery seems to have injury issues, he had the same with Leinster, so maybe 15 is a better position for him as he has more space etc. That's not to say he wont pick up injuries but this rushing him back to play either at Ireland or Munster is not working. The same was done with Henshaw and that was a mess

I dont think Munster have ruined his career, but the constant pressure to replace Sexton is not helping. Sexton is one of those characters that loved that pressure to replace ROG, I dont think Carbery is in the same mould

Rigor Mortis

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Well, it was a disastrous move, unfortunately. For whatever reasons. Some might say bad luck. I hope he returns to fitness and gets a good run.

I'll get back to work before I find out I've been relocated to munster in my absence.

Saying that it was a disastrous move does not make it so. It hasnt been a disastrous move. He has got game time and played well when he has not been injured.

No one is saying bad luck, people are saying a bad decision made by non Munster coaches.

Its also not true to say Munster havent developed any players. They havent developed any academy players true, but Carbery was not an academy player. As an example they have brought Conway on through regular game time and that is a far better analogy for what Carberry's move was about.

Now can you stop pedalling this nonsense so I can go back to hating Munster and ranting about them and their fans personal hygiene issues.

stephen_n

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Reports that Salanoa is off to Munster, and the top brass aren't too pleased with the IRFU as we'd convinced him to turn down Connacht to stay.

Probably a good move for him in terms of game time considering we have Abdaladze, Aungier and Clarkson behind Porter and Furlong, and Bent (if he doesn't retire before the season starts back). But I'd imagine it's extremely frustrating for management to go through bringing him over and getting him up to speed for the IRFU to reportedly be pushing the move.

According to Murray Kinsella Aungier is going to Connacht. Let’s hope Bent is staying on or we’ll be using sub academy lads during international windows, with Porter and Furlong gone.

Richie_Rich89

Maybe Farrell is a fan of Salanoa's power and athleticism. He's involved Tom O'Toole seemingly on that basis. Sending him to Munster is a bit of a gamble to try to give him the best possible chance of being ready for the next RWC. He'd develop better in Leinster's set-up, but ultimately he's unlikely to be in the first XXIII with Furlong and Porter there. Contrast that with John Ryan's and Stephen Archer's ages meaning he could push into the first choice XXIII in a year or two.

Could be good for Leinster losing academy players like this. If they realise they're in demand they might value them more and be less likely to take them for granted. Hopefully situations like Tom Farrell and Billy Dardis spending four years in the Academy and not seeing a minute's action are rapidly disappearing from view in the rearview mirror. Maybe it'll make them think twice about making unnecessary signings instead of backing homegrown players as well.

The downside is that it decentivises the other provinces from getting their development pathways in order. Where's the incentive for them to improve their academies? Munster can just shrug and say they can't compete because of population differences and not even try.

salmocab

Bloody Leinster not giving academy lads a chance, I knew it was them even when I thought it was the irfu.

Burkie1203

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Could be good for Leinster losing academy players like this. If they realise they're in demand they might value them more and be less likely to take them for granted.

Maybe it'll make them think twice about making unnecessary signings instead of backing homegrown players as well.

This is bullsh1t.

Salanoa and Aungier were behind two Ireland international's who came through the Leinster system.

Leinster have very much proven they value the academy lads.

Richie_Rich89

Burkie1203 wrote: »

This is bullsh1t.

Salanoa and Aungier were behind two Ireland international's who came through the Leinster system.

Leinster have very much proven they value the academy lads.

Oh, I'd agree. The development of props has been fantastic.

I was talking more in generalities, thinking of the way they signed Tomane instead of backing COB and are potentially trying to re-contract Fardy instead of backing Baird to push into the first XXIII next season.

Burkie1203

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Oh, I'd agree. The development of props has been fantastic.

I was talking more in generalities, thinking of the way they signed Tomane instead of backing COB and are potentially trying to re-contract Fardy instead of backing Baird to push into the first XXIII next season.

Again. bullsh1t.

Signing some players has proven to be hugely beneficial. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean they don't back academy players.

Richie_Rich89

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Again. bullsh1t.

Signing some players has proven to be hugely beneficial. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean they don't back academy players.

Again, I'd agree. It's about getting that balance right. Extending Fardy or signing Tomane in the first place would, I feel, fall the wrong side of the line, given existing strength in depth.

pickarooney

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ye poor craturs. How dare those players exercise free will.

Unfortunately for Leinster this is just a side effect of having a top level starter (27 years old) and replacement (24 years old) in their 23 who are nowhere close to slowing down or retiring. If young players behind them feel there is no prospect of breaking into the side then can you blame them for leaving? The more years they spend not playing the more their value plummets.

Losing two young players at the same time in the same position is a dose but it's because the players ahead of them are excellent, not because Leinster can't compete financially or are a basket case club.

Porter leaving might actually be the better decision for Porter, Ireland, Munster/Connacht, the IRFU and, during international periods, Leinster.

It's very hard to swallow that though

Scottmactom

Porter has been approached many times about leaving, he has no interest.

Leinster will be perfectly fine during intl windows with Bent, Vakh and Clarkson.

Squidgy Black

Mad how even a conversation about tighthead props can somehow get a mention of Tomane.

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

Didn't mind losing Salanoa. He's 23 this year and really still very raw in his development. He could be 25 before he's ready to feature in match day squads.

Aungier is a different story though. He was straight into the academy from school and a good prospect. He still had a long way to go but I was impressed by his work rate around the field and he showed up well coming off the bench in some real dogfights this season. He featured in all of our away games in Glasgow, Ospreys and Munster. At 21, he had a decent future ahead of him, I reckon.

That's both of our academy tightheads gone to other provinces now. With Porter and Furlong gone, we're now left with Bent, Abdaladze and Clarkson as our only tightheads between senior and academy panels, assuming Bent does re-sign. Options aren't exactly thick on the ground.

Kinsella said in his article about Aungier that Bent was expected to re-sign.

Clegg

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Oh, I'd agree. The development of props has been fantastic.

I was talking more in generalities, thinking of the way they signed Tomane instead of backing COB and are potentially trying to re-contract Fardy instead of backing Baird to push into the first XXIII next season.

Extending Fardy's contract would do wonders for Baird's development. The management would have the comfort of knowing that whomever they select in the second row would be guided by an experienced test level player. It would make them keener to throw in a youngster.

Richie_Rich89

Clegg wrote: »

Extending Fardy's contract would do wonders for Baird's development. The management would have the comfort of knowing that whomever they select in the second row would be guided by an experienced test level player. It would make them keener to throw in a youngster.

That might apply if it was Dunne or Charlie Ryan starting alongside Fardy. If the coaches are apprehensive about starting an Ireland squad player in the Pro14 then I think the problem is worse than I feared.

I honestly think Baird is ready for involvement in the first XXIII in the biggest games, and Fardy staying on puts a dent in the chances of that happening. Plus, Fardy being kept for another year virtually guarantees Dowling will have to look elsewhere. I think that would be very short termist considering the possibility Dowling could turn out quite good and Fardy probably wouldn't start the biggest games anyway.

clsmooth

Fardy for one more year will only aid Baird’s development. How could you not learn and improve from working with the man? If Ryan Baird can see further, it’s only because he’s standing on the shoulders of Scott Fardy.