Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Rigor Mortis

Clegg wrote: »

Still have huge reservations about the Carbery move also. Not just from a standpoint of us losing him, but also on grounds of his own development as a player. They aren't the right side to get the most of his talent. Far too one dimensional in how they play. It's the same story with Beirne. You'll get great performances out of him, but I don't think they use him to his full ability. That might change if they move him to 6 following the signing of Snyman.

In fairness to our dear neighbours Carberry hasnt had a chance since what looks like a bad decision (by national coach and player?) to rush his return to playing. We'll see what Larkham can do with him. From an Irish perspective it remains the right move. Ireland needs Johnny's potential replacements to be getting gametime. His move means that he gets it and Ross gets it.

Clegg

aloooof wrote: »

There was a very noticeable change in how Munster attack this season, under Larkham. Add in that Carbery has started exactly 1 game with him as attack coach, due to his injury problems.

The change in style is something that's overplayed. It was true that Larkham initially made changes early doors. But as more and more player test players gradually returned after the world cup Munsters style reverted to the norm. The nadir being the Christmas game against Leinster at Thomond when they could went through 100 phases and not breached Leinsters line, such was the lack of invention on display. Carberys been there almost two seasons now. Injury and lockdown haven't helped him, but he's not developed one iota as a player in his time down south.

Rockbeast2

I think Leinster will, for the foreseeable future, bear the brunt of the IRFUs "munster are too big to fail" view.

The IRFU still need to get Thomond debt cleared.

Munster have produced nothing in 10 years. Earl's, Murray, POM all 30 plus and fading fast. Maybe Casey comes through in next 18 months.

Munster are a failed entity. Shoot me down, I know I am correct. Their sense of entitlement to be challenging for titles, when not producing players, stinks.

ionadnapokot

Scottmactom wrote: »

With Salanoa & Aungier gone.

TH Prop next season:
Tadhg Furlong(27/New Ross RFC/Clontarf)
Andrew Porter(24/St. Andrews/UCD)
Michael Bent(34/New Zealand)
Vakh Albadaze(24/Coolmine RFC/Clontarf)
--
Tom Clarkson(20/Blackrock/DUFC)

Charlie Ward can fill a gap in an emergency

Ben Griffin from Castleknock looks like a decent prospect.
I'd imagine he will be coming into the academy

realhorrorshow

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Another way of looking at it is that Leinster signed too many tightheads/QUOTE]

Developed. Developed too many tightheads, perhaps...

It doesn’t matter where the players come from. No team in the world could keep seven players in one position happy, even disregarding the influence of the IRFU.

Scottmactom

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Charlie Ward can fill a gap in an emergency

Ben Griffin from Castleknock looks like a decent prospect.
I'd imagine he will be coming into the academy

No guarantee Ward will be around, could get academy deal now due to this.

Griffin wont be in full academy, will have to prove himself in sub-academy.

Sam Illo(Old Wesley) be competing with Griffin in the sub-academy.

Rockbeast2

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

It doesn’t matter where the players come from. No team in the world could keep seven players in one position happy, even disregarding the influence of the IRFU.

It does matter. The IRFU are cannibalizing resources.

The goose with the golden eggs?

Clegg

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

I think Leinster will, for the foreseeable future, bear the brunt of the IRFUs "munster are too big to fail" view.

The IRFU still need to get Thomond debt cleared.

Munster have produced nothing in 10 years. Earl's, Murray, POM all 30 plus and fading fast. Maybe Casey comes through in next 18 months.

Munster are a failed entity. Shoot me down, I know I am correct. Their sense of entitlement to be challenging for titles, when not producing players, stinks.

They've developed good players since that threesome. But none have gone on to excel at the highest level of the game. The likes of John Ryan, JOD and Niall Scannell are all decent European level players. But they're not test standard players by any means. They make wider squads because they're talented, but lack that next level. I've high hopes for Thomas Aherne in the u20s. Jack O'Sullivan might make it too.

Rockbeast2

Clegg wrote: »

They've developed good players since that threesome. But none have gone on to excel at the highest level of the game. The likes of John Ryan, JOD and Niall Scannell are all decent European level players. But they're not test standard players by any means. They make wider squads because they're talented, but lack that next level. I've high hopes for Thomas Aherne in the u20s. Jack O'Sullivan might make it too.

Aherne and O'Sullivan are two very good players but realistically 2/3 years away from meaningful International gametime and that's IF their development continues and they both get vital exposure to European rugby in next 12/18 months. I wouldn't put my house on that happening, unfortunately...

thomond2006

Munster are making moves to get Ahern and JOS up the depth chart. At lock DOS and SOC are leaving, with only RG Snyman coming in. In the backrow Botha and Oliver are leaving. Overall squad numbers have decreased year on year.

Once again, the accusations that the Munster academy are doing nothing are a few years out of date.

The Lost Sheep

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

I think Leinster will, for the foreseeable future, bear the brunt of the IRFUs "munster are too big to fail" view.

The IRFU still need to get Thomond debt cleared.

Munster have produced nothing in 10 years. Earl's, Murray, POM all 30 plus and fading fast. Maybe Casey comes through in next 18 months.

Munster are a failed entity. Shoot me down, I know I am correct. Their sense of entitlement to be challenging for titles, when not producing players, stinks.

Munster are getting debt down year on year.
There is no view from irfu re Munster
Munster have produced a fair few players the last decade. No lions or 50/60 cap guys but they're hard to do very regularly
Saying they're a failed entity is childish and nonsense

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster are making moves to get Ahern and JOS up the depth chart. At lock DOS and SOC are leaving, with only RG Snyman coming in. In the backrow Botha and Oliver are leaving.

Once again, the accusations that the Munster academy are doing nothing are a few years out of date.

years out of date and all changes in recent years from club and school competition formats to how development and provincial age grade squads train and are coached all make Munster far more likely to produce more players in years to come

typhoony

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

I think Leinster will, for the foreseeable future, bear the brunt of the IRFUs "munster are too big to fail" view.

The IRFU still need to get Thomond debt cleared.

Munster have produced nothing in 10 years. Earl's, Murray, POM all 30 plus and fading fast. Maybe Casey comes through in next 18 months.

Munster are a failed entity. Shoot me down, I know I am correct. Their sense of entitlement to be challenging for titles, when not producing players, stinks.

I think the succession planning was non-existent in the last say 8 years, and for the last few years they have scrambled to fill the holes in the squad not always doing it fairly I might add. Leinster can still afford to pay the price, I mean the number of 2nd rows they have is incredible. Only now when they have witnessed leinster's schools and academy system have they copped on.

aloooof

Clegg wrote: »

The change in style is something that's overplayed. It was true that Larkham initially made changes early doors. But as more and more player test players gradually returned after the world cup Munsters style reverted to the norm. The nadir being the Christmas game against Leinster at Thomond when they could went through 100 phases and not breached Leinsters line, such was the lack of invention on display.

It don't think that's necessarily true, tbh. For example. Stander had a number of offloads vs Racing; there was a noticeable change.

Also, Larkham obviously had far more access to the players earlier in the season. You're criticising Munster's attack in a game that took place 7 weeks after the RWC. The internationals were available for 7 games before the Leinster game. If you think that's enough time to implement a whole new attack, then fair enough.

Clegg wrote: »

Carberys been there almost two seasons now. Injury and lockdown haven't helped him, but he's not developed one iota as a player in his time down south.

You're pinning his lack of development on Munster when the reality is his biggest challenge towards development is staying injury free. (Suggesting 2 seasons is also a stretch... he's started 1 game this season).

Rockbeast2

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Munster are getting debt down year on year.
There is no view from irfu re Munster
Munster have produced a fair few players the last decade.

I'd be interested to hear which players under 30 these are..

they're hard to do very regularly

And yet Leinster manage it by creating a competitive environment in their academy and squad

Don't give me the population argument, Leinster recruit <10 players a year to their academy. Munster can make offers to every other senior cup and club player.

Munster demand outputs from the Leinster academy and are not seeking inputs to their own. That's the major problem.

thomond2006

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

And yet Leinster manage it by creating a competitive environment in their academy and squad

Don't give me the population argument, Leinster recruit <10 players a year to their academy. Munster can make offers to every other senior cup and club player.

Munster demand outputs from the Leinster academy and are not seeking inputs to their own. That's the major problem.

You have no idea what Munster's inputs have been in the last 2-3 years. There's been a complete change around.

Scottmactom

Leinster continue to prop up the other provinces with this news.

Not far away from all 4 of the provinces starting props on a match weekend having come through the leinster setup, could(unlikely) happen next season:

Munster
1. Loughman 3. Salanoa

Ulster
1. McGrath 3. Moore

Connacht
1. Duggan 3. Aungier

Rockbeast2

aloooof wrote: »

You're pinning his lack of development on Munster when the reality is his biggest challenge towards development is staying injury free. (Suggesting 2 seasons is also a stretch... he's started 1 game this season).

Carbery's head was pumped full of nonsense to get him to move to munster. He has regressed as a player.

Preordaining him as the future Irish 10 will be looked back upon as a disaster in years to come.

thomond2006

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Carbery's head was pumped full of nonsense to get him to move to munster. He has regressed as a player.

Preordaining him as the future Irish 10 will be looked back upon as a disaster in years to come.

I'm intrigued to know how anyone could say Carbery has either developed or regressed when his appearance total at Munster is 17 over two seasons.
Injury has curtailed him, not his provincial jersey. By all means point the finger at Ireland for bringing him to Japan when he was not fit.

You can say his head was pumped full of nonsense. The reality is he barely played at 10 in his final season at Leinster with Ross Byrne bypassing him.

Rockbeast2

thomond2006 wrote: »

You have no idea what Munster's inputs have been in the last 2-3 years. There's been a complete change around.

Excuse me, I follow every input into the potential Irish representative pipeline. It is the OUTPUTS from the munster academy that concerns me.

Rockbeast2

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm intrigued to know how anyone could say Carbery has either developed or regressed when his appearance total at Munster is 17 over two seasons.
Injury has curtailed him, not his provincial jersey.

Time will prove me correct or incorrect.

I wouldn't put too much faith in Carbery playing 15+ more International games against Top 8 sides @10, that's for sure.

thomond2006

Oh I definitely think it's possible that his career could be in trouble due to injury.

AdamD

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster are making moves to get Ahern and JOS up the depth chart. At lock DOS and SOC are leaving, with only RG Snyman coming in. In the backrow Botha and Oliver are leaving. Overall squad numbers have decreased year on year.

Once again, the accusations that the Munster academy are doing nothing are a few years out of date.

The young 9 looks a future international too

The Lost Sheep

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

And yet Leinster manage it by creating a competitive environment in their academy and squad

Don't give me the population argument, Leinster recruit <10 players a year to their academy. Munster can make offers to every other senior cup and club player.

Munster demand outputs from the Leinster academy and are not seeking inputs to their own. That's the major problem.

Munster are working very hard on developing their age grade systems and have improved but when compared directly to leinster will always fall flat. But then again nearly every pro team in the world would as well. No shame in that.

Scottmactom wrote: »

Leinster continue to prop up the other provinces with this news.

Not far away from all 4 of the provinces starting props on a match weekend having come through the leinster setup, could(unlikely) happen next season:

Munster
1. Loughman 3. Salanoa

Ulster
1. McGrath 3. Moore

Connacht
1. Duggan 3. Aungier

and? Leinsters playing resources at age grade and other resources completely outstrip everything in other provinces to no wonder they are.

aloooof

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Carbery's head was pumped full of nonsense to get him to move to munster. He has regressed as a player.

Preordaining him as the future Irish 10 will be looked back upon as a disaster in years to come.

Leaving aside the first part, the bolded part is ridiculous. Whether or not he fulfils his potential, he was the best prospect.

Rockbeast2

aloooof wrote: »

Leaving aside the first part, the bolded part is ridiculous. He was the best prospect.

"was" being the operative word.

How is preordaing any young player as a certain starter a good move? How does that help his psychological development?

Was/is he even a 10 is too much of a digression for today.

I'll leave it at that.

Great move for Aungier.
Could be a good move for Salonoa, and I truly hope it is, but I doubt it.

Clegg

All a moot point anyway. Everyone knows Harry Byrne is the future Ireland starting 10.

aloooof

Clegg wrote: »

All a moot point anyway. Everyone knows Harry Byrne is the future Ireland starting 10.

Nice ninja-edit there, Clegg

The Lost Sheep

errlloyd wrote: »

I am sad to lose Aungier. He was the linchpin of that incredible St Fintans team and I wanted that story to end with him at Leinster.

and would be good to have more players come through from Dublin junior rugby clubs like suttonians who havent played much schools rugby.

yerrahbah

AdamD wrote: »

The young 9 looks a future international too

Leinster were sniffing around him which prompted Munster to offer him a contract by all accounts

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/munster-issue-hands-off-warning-to-leinster-over-one-of-their-hottest-young-prospects-38086276.html

aloooof

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

How is preordaing any young player as a certain starter a good move? How does that help his psychological development?

Who did this? And what do you suggest Munster could have done about it?