Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Buer

I think their peaks generally coincided. Very different players though. Horgan wasn't an out and out winger for a large part of his career. The narrative around him changed in the last few years of his career to him being a disaster at centre. The reality is that he was a bloody good centre for a long period (he picked up 2 Lions test caps at inside centre off the bench) but just didn't play there enough to be of use in his last few years. He was quick enough for a big guy, terrible kicking game but much better hands than given credit for.

Hickie was much more of a winger. He was a speedster with a big left boot and very cool under pressure. A couple of major injuries probably robbed him of about 20 more caps than he did get but he still has a superb record. The only player in the top tryscorer table in Irish history with a better scoring rate is Stockdale and I think it's safe to say that's going to change in the next 1-2 years.

Podge_irl

Former Former wrote: »

And my stab at the forwards

1. Healy
2. Strauss
3. Furlong
4. Cullen
5. Ryan
6. Fardy
7. SOB
8. Heaslip

16. Cronin
17. McGrath
18. Ross
19. Hines
20. Elsom

No room for Mal?

The only way to settle this is to create a thread per position with a poll

Former Former

Podge_irl wrote: »

No room for Mal?

Fair question. I guess he'd be on the bench ahead of Hines.

Richie_Rich89

Former Former wrote: »

Fair question. I guess he'd be on the bench ahead of Hines.

No he wouldn't be on the bench. He'd be starting. Miles better player than Cullen.

Squidgy Black

Cullen's purely in the squad due to his PR skills. Only explanation.

clsmooth

Buer wrote: »

A peak Hickie ahead of all of them, for me. Did it at both provincial and test level with consistency over a sustained period. In the past 20 years, I don't think there was a better Irish winger overall when all were at the peak of their powers, to be honest. Had some very bad injuries but still managed to retain his speed and ability throughout.

Agreed. Classy player. Did his achilles at the 2003 WC and retired after the 2007 WC when he must have only been 30/31. EOS picking Trimble ahead of Hickie vs France at that tournament was a bit of a head scratcher although I don’t think it really made much difference in the grand scheme of things

AbusesToilets

clsmooth wrote: »

Agreed. Classy player. Did his achilles at the 2003 WC and retired after the 2007 WC when he must have only been 30/31. EOS picking Trimble ahead of Hickie vs France at that tournament was a bit of a head scratcher although I don’t think it really made much difference in the grand scheme of things

was just watching the match vs Aus where he injures himself, he was on fire. Could've had a back 3 of him Horgan and Murphy for the tournament, maybe our best ever.

Shefwedfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This discussion is just getting me all excited for leinstertainment, gonna have to put you all on ignore until August

Sexton was on radio the other day saying he is doing off season training now and next week will start training similar to preseason and expects to be playing over the summer

molloyjh

Hickie 100% has to be there. For me:

Healy Strauss Furlong
Cullen Ryan
Elsom Heaslip SOB

Reddan Sexton
Contepomi BOD
Hickie Nacewa Horgan

Cronin, McGrath, Ross, MOK, Gleeson, Whitaker, Darce, Kearney

Gleeson cannot be excluded, which is harsh on Jenno but thems the breaks. Hines and Fardy also unfortunate to miss out. Luke Fitz could be in there ahead of one of Darce or Kearney, that's another tight call. But I would pay serious money to see that back line in their prime.

Buer

I'd take Jenno over Gleeson on the basis of their overall careers. Gleeson was a superb operator but he was always limited somewhat by his size. Jennings was no bruiser but he developed a much harder edge as his career wore on and he came back a much tougher nugget from Welford Road. He was very much in the supporting openside role when he left, similar to Gleeson and thriving in open field play. The season he came back he was a much shrewder, niggly operator. He didn't have the natural skill that Gleeson had but he developed a variety of talents that made him a core part of the dominant Leinster team.

I'd probably go for RK at 15 and move Nacewa to the wing. Horgan was great but Kearney has just been the backbone of the Leinster backfield for almost 15 years. I don't think his importance to the team can be overstated.

Richie_Rich89

molloyjh wrote: »

Hickie 100% has to be there. For me:

Healy Strauss Furlong
Cullen Ryan
Elsom Heaslip SOB

Reddan Sexton
Contepomi BOD
Hickie Nacewa Horgan

Cronin, McGrath, Ross, MOK, Gleeson, Whitaker, Darce, Kearney

Gleeson cannot be excluded, which is harsh on Jenno but thems the breaks. Hines and Fardy also unfortunate to miss out. Luke Fitz could be in there ahead of one of Darce or Kearney, that's another tight call. But I would pay serious money to see that back line in their prime.

I think if you're going for less talented players like Strauss (over Shane Byrne) and Cullen (over O'Kelly, Thorn, Hines and Toner) based on their overall contribution rather than how out-and-out good as a player they are/were, then, to be consistent, you probably have to go for Ross over Furlong and McFadden over Horgan. Potentially Jennings ahead of SOB too.

Clegg

A little thread from Murray Kinsella on Rocky Eldon's performance in the 2009 Heineken Cup Final. He was outrageously good that day.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1247938613347827714?s=19

irishbucsfan

He was outrageously good every day

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

A peak Hickie ahead of all of them, for me. Did it at both provincial and test level with consistency over a sustained period. In the past 20 years, I don't think there was a better Irish winger overall when all were at the peak of their powers, to be honest. Had some very bad injuries but still managed to retain his speed and ability throughout.

We have never had a winger since who could do this.

https://youtu.be/tFuVyB0R2hU

https://youtu.be/tFuVyB0R2hU F*vk I can’t get the link to embed

Buer

"An error occurred".

I think you'll find we've had no shortage of wingers who could do that.

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

"An error occurred".

I think you'll find we've had no shortage of wingers who could do that.

I don’t think we have or have had any wingers with his pace since then.

Richie_Rich89

stephen_n wrote: »

I don’t think we have or have had any wingers with his pace since then.

Possibly Barry Daly. It was reported that he reached 10.5m/s.

Hickie clocked 11.19 in winning the intermediate boys 100m in the Irish schools athletics championships in 1992.

You could use Usain Bolt's top speed of 44.72kph (12.4222222m/s) and time of 9.58 to extrapolate out a potential time for Daly. Of course, the top speed will be inversely proportional to the time.

9.58 = 1/12.4222222 x some constant (c)

c turns out to be 119.005

so...

1/10.5 x 119.005 = 11.33

Of course, Daly might be able to reach a faster top speed than 10.5 m/s if he was running on a track in spikes. But then again, he might not have Bolt's speed endurance, so using his marks to extrapolate could give a falsely fast impression of how fast Daly could run the hundred. Also, Bolt's and Daly's top speeds might not be directly comparable if different methods were used to measure them.

Dog Botherer

can we not just get them to race? my brain hurts.

Richie_Rich89

Best Leinster-produced team of pro era:

1. Cian Healy
2. Shane Byrne
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. James Ryan
5. Malcolm O'Kelly
6. Kevin McLaughlin
7. Shane Jennings
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Luke McGrath
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. Denis Hickie
12. Gordon D'Arcy
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Shane Horgan
15. Robert Kearney

16. James Tracy
17. Jack McGrath
18. Marty Moore
19. Devin Toner
20. Sean O'Brien
21. John Cooney
22. Joey Carbery
23. Luke Fitzgerald

Slim enough pickings for reserve hooker and scrumhalf. Ronan Kelleher would be close enough. He'd make an Ireland squad ahead of Tracy right now, even though Tracy is playing some of his best rugby at the moment. Ultimately, though, Kelleher probably just doesn't have enough of a body of work to go on yet.

The three quarter line are all from a generation ago. I think it shows that Leinster haven't done a good enough job at developing top quality wings and centres in the last decade. The best they could come up with is probably 11. Kearney, 12. Reid, 13. Ringrose, 14. Byrne. O'Loughlin showed promise as a winger in '16/'17. His trajectory was excellent that year, going form no starts at provincial level to being internationally capped in a season. Leinster preferred to buy in Lowe instead of seeing where O'Loughlin could get to if he was backed, though. The 12 jersey has been a bit of a horrorshow since MOC left, with Cullen bringing in not one but two imports at once in the shape of Henshaw and Tomane.

AbusesToilets

I'd be tempted to put Luke at 12 myself

Richie_Rich89

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd be tempted to put Luke at 12 myself

Yeah, I really like Fitzgerald at 12. I think it was a real missed opportunity by Cullen in '15/'16 not to pair him and Ringrose in the centre as first choice whenever he was fit. There'd have been a lovely balance to that partnership.

Fitzgerald and Te'o didn't complement each other at all.

sydthebeat

Watching the Toulouse 2006 game again... Damn that was some stunner that gave the ball to the ref

Clegg

sydthebeat wrote: »

Watching the Toulouse 2006 game again... Damn that was some stunner that gave the ball to the ref

On the subject of the Toulouse game; the Hickie try is the one that's remembered, but I think BOD's was better An inside ball to Horgan off a lineout, he broke the line and made loads of metres, offloads to Contepomi who then offloads to BoD to run 15 metres for the score. BoD had already picked his line about 30 metres out and was anticipating not only the Contepomi offload, but the Horgan one as well. Was a thing of beauty.

If only we had the consistency and grit to play like that all the time. The Schmidt and Cullen sides won the trophies and earned so many plaudits, but for sheer entertainment and attacking quality the early to mid 00's Leinster sides lead the way

UAEguy2020

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Best Leinster-produced team of pro era:

1. Cian Healy
2. Shane Byrne
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. James Ryan
5. Malcolm O'Kelly
6. Kevin McLaughlin
7. Shane Jennings
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Luke McGrath
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. Denis Hickie
12. Gordon D'Arcy
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Shane Horgan
15. Robert Kearney

16. James Tracy
17. Jack McGrath
18. Marty Moore
19. Devin Toner
20. Sean O'Brien
21. John Cooney
22. Joey Carbery
23. Luke Fitzgerald

Slim enough pickings for reserve hooker and scrumhalf. Ronan Kelleher would be close enough. He'd make an Ireland squad ahead of Tracy right now, even though Tracy is playing some of his best rugby at the moment. Ultimately, though, Kelleher probably just doesn't have enough of a body of work to go on yet.

The three quarter line are all from a generation ago. I think it shows that Leinster haven't done a good enough job at developing top quality wings and centres in the last decade. The best they could come up with is probably 11. Kearney, 12. Reid, 13. Ringrose, 14. Byrne. O'Loughlin showed promise as a winger in '16/'17. His trajectory was excellent that year, going form no starts at provincial level to being internationally capped in a season. Leinster preferred to buy in Lowe instead of seeing where O'Loughlin could get to if he was backed, though. The 12 jersey has been a bit of a horrorshow since MOC left, with Cullen bringing in not one but two imports at once in the shape of Henshaw and Tomane.

Wait...13 and 8 capped Jennings and McLaughlin are better than 59 capped and two timed Lions tourist starting 7 Sean O'Brien?

Waffletraktor

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Wait...13 and 8 capped Jennings and McLaughlin are better than 59 capped and two timed Lions tourist starting 7 Sean O'Brien?

It's not worth the effort unless lockdown has you that bored.

salmocab

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Wait...13 and 8 capped Jennings and McLaughlin are better than 59 capped and two timed Lions tourist starting 7 Sean O'Brien?

Sometimes when you see something posted and wonder why no one else has responded to it there’s probably a reason.

Shefwedfan

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Wait...13 and 8 capped Jennings and McLaughlin are better than 59 capped and two timed Lions tourist starting 7 Sean O'Brien?

Best not go down that rabbit hole....

UAEguy2020

salmocab wrote: »

Sometimes when you see something posted and wonder why no one else has responded to it there’s probably a reason.

Fair enough, let my inexperience show!

However, you can never underestimate how far nostalgia can bring someone. Just look at the Munster fans when they are actually trying to make a case for Quinlan being ahead of O'Mahony!

Richie_Rich89

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Wait...13 and 8 capped Jennings and McLaughlin are better than 59 capped and two timed Lions tourist starting 7 Sean O'Brien?

They'd form a more balanced backrow. O'Brien's lineout game lets him down as a blindside. And Jennings was a more natural openside than SOB.

Plus there's the fact that O'Brien rarely played for Leinster during the second half of his time in blue. He was more an Ireland and Lions player than a Leinster one.

Also, I was partly being sarcastic in response to others picking Strauss and Cullen ahead of Byrne and O'Kelly respectively. Byrne was a Test Lion and O'Kelly toured in '01 and '05.