DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Sunday Runner

ReeReeG wrote: »

I think that would be too much this week. You've done a few races this cycle already, would you consider running the HM as an LSR instead? I think at this stage it might be more worthwhile to concentrate on getting the miles in.

You could do a few easy miles before the HM and then run the HM at that same LSR pace.
In this instance then, I think 20km nice and easy tonight should be ok.

This never even crossed my mind! I suppose it's an option. Over the Summer I've done the PWC relay, Braveheart, the KBC 10km, the KBC 10 mile and Rock n Roll half. I was hoping to get a half marathon time to gauge PMP and an estimated marathon time. That said I doubt i'd drop significantly from 1:58 though.

One more wedding the week before DCM. Nothing on between now and then, as far as I know. :rolleyes:

Karlos80

-How was Week 12 for you?
Good, got all sessions in, happy enough with progress, heel still holding up OK.

-What did you learn this week?
Treat the injuries, stay on top of them, they may not get a chance to heal right, but don't let then get worse. Spend the time on them, whether it's stretching, foam roller, resistance, hot/cold treatment, physio. Don't ignore.
Not sure what else to put here, maybe don't trust the weather forecast!

py

Stumbled upon this...:pac: Out November 1st...

frash

- How was week 12 for you?
ok
Didn't get the medium run in the plan done but got the 3 midweek runs in as well as the LSR

Monday 5 miles @ 10:58 min / mile (too fast I know)
Tuesday 5.6 miles @ 11:06 min/mile
Thursday 5 miles @11:09 min/mile
Saturday 13.5 miles @ 11:30 min/mile


- What did you learn this week?
I should have been foam rolling more - have a slight bit of stiffness in one of my calves. Kinda glad there's only 2 runs this week before the HM on Saturday. As usual I can't imagine myself running faster than the easy pace but we'll see how it goes.

Charliebull

hi Guys

Just discovered this thread, hope its not too late to join, I too am doing my maiden DCM this October, am 45 and always wanted to complete a marathon but kids, life, work etc never allowed, been running a few years but never more than 10 miles

I have been following a HHP this past few months, I am currently up to 19 miles with 3 mid week runs of 5-8-5, I have not been doing any cross training, not sure if that is right or wrong

Completed the Achill half marathon in July in 1-46, but learned the hard way that a 2 hr drive the morning of the race is not a good idea. I also discovered trying to take water while running is difficult and was wondering do people just stop and take the water or what is best

currently experimenting with gels and water stops on my long runs, something I have not done before, using 2 gels over 19 miles at the moment. I even got up at 2am Saturday morning to experiment with toast and honey 4 hours before my scheduled run (not sure if this was lunacy or not)

my biggest concern at the moment is my knee, old football injury and its starting to ache again around the 17-19 mile mark, i also started to cramp a little (something i used to suffer with at football previously) but never at running before

have been trying to catch up on this thread and it has some great information

Mr. Guappa

passinginterest wrote: »

How was Week 12 for you?
I think the cumulative fatigue set in a bit this week. PMP session was really tough, not helped by route choice, so effort was very high. The 16 mile LSR was fine but the legs were definitely tired. The fact that I ran it a bit faster and included a few more hills probably had an impact too. Hopefully positive though.

What did you learn this week?
1000 mile socks are amazing. I’m usually happy enough with my cheap ones, didn’t think there’d be a big difference, but they really do feel incredible. Fuelling is going well, the High5 Aqua gels are sitting well in my stomach and I’m getting the boost from them, I also like to have something solid, I’ve been eating squares of Dairy Milk but I’ve ordered some little energy bars from Decathlon to try. I’ve also ordered salt tablets. I seem to sweat out a lot of salts, they can be seen and felt on my skin after a long run and I’ve always gotten headaches when I get a bit dehydrated, I’ve suffered from cramps the odd time too. Going to see if taking one of these towards the end of a run helps to keep those levels up.
I need to keep watching my diet. Didn’t bother logging calories this week and sure enough put a pound back on. Should be dropping steadily at this stage and it’s poor discipline and a sweet tooth doing the damage. Loosing another 5 or 6 pounds before the marathon would make a big difference.

I wouldn't get too hung up on weight loss at this stage. Yes, you are running more and getting fitter, but you should also be eating a lot more to provide the energy for all this running. Just try and make incremental improvements in the quality of food you're eating, particularly before and after runs.

Replacing the salt you lose during a run is essential. I'd regularly pop an electrolyte tab in my water, and always during a long run.

passinginterest

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I wouldn't get too hung up on weight loss at this stage. Yes, you are running more and getting fitter, but you should also be eating a lot more to provide the energy for all this running. Just try and make incremental improvements in the quality of food you're eating, particularly before and after runs.

Replacing the salt you lose during a run is essential. I'd regularly pop an electrolyte tab in my water, and always during a long run.

Yeah, I’m not planning a crash diet or anything, but I’m conscious of the fact I’m carrying a lot more weight than necessary. A couple of weeks of making better choices and tracking the intake had seen 3 or 4 pounds drop off naturally. A week of taking the eye of the ball a bit led to a gain. A biscuit with a cuppa too easily becomes a packet of biscuits!

I’ve been avoiding putting electrolyte tabs in the hydration pack because its a pain to clean. So I’ve been using them before and after. Would have used them during in the past, will be curious to see how the salt tabs work.

eabha19

py wrote: »

Stumbled upon this...:pac: Out November 1st...

Oh man! Looks so good!

Sunday Runner

eabha19 wrote: »

Oh man! Looks so good!

The last frame; when the kindergarden kids are walking faster than them! Can't wait to see this movie. :D

Huzzah!

Charliebull wrote: »

hi Guys

Just discovered this thread, hope its not too late to join, I too am doing my maiden DCM this October, am 45 and always wanted to complete a marathon but kids, life, work etc never allowed, been running a few years but never more than 10 miles

I have been following a HHP this past few months, I am currently up to 19 miles with 3 mid week runs of 5-8-5, I have not been doing any cross training, not sure if that is right or wrong

Completed the Achill half marathon in July in 1-46, but learned the hard way that a 2 hr drive the morning of the race is not a good idea. I also discovered trying to take water while running is difficult and was wondering do people just stop and take the water or what is best

currently experimenting with gels and water stops on my long runs, something I have not done before, using 2 gels over 19 miles at the moment. I even got up at 2am Saturday morning to experiment with toast and honey 4 hours before my scheduled run (not sure if this was lunacy or not)

my biggest concern at the moment is my knee, old football injury and its starting to ache again around the 17-19 mile mark, i also started to cramp a little (something i used to suffer with at football previously) but never at running before

have been trying to catch up on this thread and it has some great information

Hello! You're very welcome to join the thread. Please have a go at answering the questions in the OP to let us know a bit more about you. You're also welcome to join the Strava group: https://www.strava.com/clubs/523351 PM us your real name, so we'll know to approve your request.

Have you been to the physio with your knee?

4 hours before a run is probably a bit excessive. I generally need 90 minutes to two hours between eating and running.

Huzzah!

Sunday Runner wrote: »

Hi ReeReeG,

I was thinking of 20km today - i should be able to get that in. Nice and slow.

And i am racing the half - well i'm aiming to do a bit better than my last half! I don't think you could put me in the race category!! :D

If you're running a race at your best effort, you're in the race category!

Charliebull

Huzzah! wrote: »

Hello! You're very welcome to join the thread. Please have a go at answering the questions in the OP to let us know a bit more about you. You're also welcome to join the Strava group: https://www.strava.com/clubs/523351 PM us your real name, so we'll know to approve your request.

Have you been to the physio with your knee?

4 hours before a run is probably a bit excessive. I generally need 90 minutes to two hours between eating and running.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
5k- 19:48
half marathon 1:46

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
no

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week,
cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level
currently 3 short runs of 5mile, 8 mile and 5 mile and long run up to 19 mile now

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
sub 4 would be magic but just want to finish TBH

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
4-5 DAYS, currently on HH plan

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?
injury, knees are not great

Why are you running this marathon?
always said I would give one a go

Huzzah!

Charliebull wrote: »

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
5k- 19:48
half marathon 1:46

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
no

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week,
cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level
currently 3 short runs of 5mile, 8 mile and 5 mile and long run up to 19 mile now

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
sub 4 would be magic but just want to finish TBH

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
4-5 DAYS, currently on HH plan

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?
injury, knees are not great

Why are you running this marathon?
always said I would give one a go

What kind of paces do you run your training runs at?

They're some nice PBs but there is a bit of a drop off between 5k and half times, which suggests a lack of endurance. To be fair, though, if that time is from Achill, it's fairly hilly! Will you race on Saturday?

Charliebull

Huzzah! wrote: »

What kind of paces do you run your training runs at?

They're some nice PBs but there is a bit of a drop off between 5k and half times, which suggests a lack of endurance. To be fair, though, if that time is from Achill, it's fairly hilly! Will you race on Saturday?

generally the short 4m runs are around the 4:50 per km mark

8m run seems to be 4:58 mark per km

19m took me 2hr:41 on saturday

:)yes that was achill and the hills on that were tough (and i am used to hills running around my house)

no not racing saturday, should I look for a half marathon local before DCM

Treviso

Charliebull wrote: »

19m took me 2hr:41 on saturday

So you ran this 19M at about 30-40 seconds faster per minute than your planned marathon pace for sub 4? This is way too fast and is the reason your knee is starting to ache. You need to slow down on those long runs - I'm sure one of the mentors can give you the proper pace to run at in KM

I'm planning for 3.30 in DCM and my long runs are at least 20 seconds per minute slower than yours! I did a 20m in 2hrs57mins

Charliebull

Treviso wrote: »

Charliebull wrote: »

19m took me 2hr:41 on saturday

So you ran this 19M at about 30-40 seconds faster per minute than your planned marathon pace for sub 4? This is way too fast and is the reason your knee is starting to ache. You need to slow down on those long runs - I'm sure one of the mentors can give you the proper pace to run at in KM

I'm planning for 3.30 in DCM and my long runs are at least 20 seconds per minute slower than yours! I did a 20m in 2hrs57mins

Ok thanks,
I’m not good at pacing myself for longer runs,

Suppose one was to try a 3-45 time, what should I be pacing the runs

DeepBlue

Charliebull wrote: »

Suppose one was to try a 3-45 time, what should I be pacing the runs

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/

Try putting in some recent race times into that calculator and see what times it will suggest based on current fitness.

Mr. Guappa

Charliebull wrote: »

Ok thanks,
I’m not good at pacing myself for longer runs,

Suppose one was to try a 3-45 time, what should I be pacing the runs

You should train to current abilities, not a random goal time. Your race times are very promising and indicate that sub 4 is a definite possibility, providing you have the necessary endurance.

If we take 3:50-3:55 as a potential matathon time, then training paces for easy and long runs should be 6:15/km or thereabouts. I'm hoping a similar finish time to above, and yesterday I did 18 miles in 3 hours.

On your question of racing a HM between now and DCM - unless it's this weekend, then absolutely not. It will do more harm than good to your marathon preparations.

ByrneDCMbrian

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

It's one bad week - look at it as a generous step-back week and move on. As regards this week and the HM... if you want to do the HM as part of an 18 miler, then I'd do the whole thing at LSR pace, as per the alternative plan posted in the preview. 13 miles at PMP would be an absolute monster session - no need to tack on an extra 5 if you're going that route, although I had thought you previously decided to race the HM?

Very generous step back week 😂😂 after all that had happen last week and Saturday I wanted to do the 18 mile. But now I think I'll just race it and see how i go from your advice Mr Guappa. Thanks for the advice cause if I didn't get some I'd be wrecking my head all week about what way to run it.

Doc76

Good week last week and the 12 mile LSR didn’t seem so long which I guess is the point all this training

Learned? That proper fuel and sleep really do the trick. Aiming to be in bed by 10 for rest of the week fingers crossed I stick with it.

Looking forward to racing on Saturday and well done to everyone who raced over last weekend.

Parking question for Saturday... it seems the 1/2 is around the perimeter of the park so does this means there’s no parking in all those little lots within the park? Last race I parked in the cricket car park which worked a treat.

DBB

How was Week 12 for you?
Good, once it got going! All runs done. I was on holidays in the wesht, so some lovely new spots to run in fab scenery. Got a couple of good cross-training swimming sessions in too... getting out of the pool sweating must mean it's a good workout! Thoughts of triathlons flickering in the back of my head.
I slowed things down as best I could without breaking into a walk.
Runs were
Tuesday 4 miles @ 11:47mins/mile, avg bpm 134
Wednesday 8 miles @ 11:39mins/mile, avg bpm 141
Thursday 5 miles on the treadmill (yawn) due to abysmal weather, with plenty of inclines thrown in to make it harder, 11:32mins/mile, avg bpm 144
Saturday 14.7 miles @ 11.40mins/mile, avg bpm 144. This included 3 faster miles at the end. I'd read that it can be good for your head to push yourself in the last few miles of a long run, and yes, I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it was to push it out instead of just slogging home!
A good week for me, both physically and in my head, as I'd started out the week second-guessing myself and feeling doubtful about it all... not like me as I'm quite a positive kinda person.

What did you learn this week?
1. Porridge is the. Best. Breakfast. DCM has reignited a lifelong love of the stuff. The superest super food of deliciousness
2. I can stay disciplined even when I'm on holliers
2. Don't let yourself or others make you doubt yourself when you know you've put the work in!

Well done to all with your brilliant HM results over the weekend... delighted for you all seeing the results appearing on Strava! And to all of ye getting the LSRs done... not too many left now! Eek!
Thanks to our mentors, that's another week down!
All the very best to everyone doing Dublin HM on Saturday... will be with you in spirit

Bananaleaf

How was week 12 for you?

It started off great, but ended rather miserably as I am now sick.
Mon - Fri was all good - had a very satisfying run on Tuesday which almost didn't happen, only for my super organisation skills :cool: and Wed's PMP session was a great boost. Woke on Saturday feeling a little sore in the throat and Sunday consisted of a quite miserable LSR as a result. Weather was as bad as I felt.

I made the decision last night to take 2 days off work to try get over the illness. Last year I got sick after returning to work and I didn't take any time off. I ended up being sick for 7 weeks. That's no good for my marathon, but it's no good for my employer either, so I am hoping that the 2days in bed will do the trick.

What did you learn this week?

Well, I know that this doesn't exactly answer the question, but since I have had nothing to do today except sit in bed and rest, I read through the Mentored Novices Threads for 2018, 2017 and 2016 :eek: so I will share with everyone what I have learned this week from my reading!!

From the 2016 DCM thread I learned ...

• The Tuesday before DCM is called ‘Toenail Tuesday’. We cut our toenails that day :pac:
• Roebuck ‘Heartbreak Hill’ isn’t the killer – it’s the Milltown hill/ Clonskeagh drag before it that’s the real beast
• Go to the expo on the Friday – early as possible if you can to give you more time off the feet on Sat
• NO HEADPHONES!
• When the going gets tough, start encouraging everyone around you – it will take your mind off your own struggles

From the 2017 DCM thread I learned ...

• Remember to bring ticket and ID to the expo
• Don’t overdo it on the carbs the night before and end up bloated
• Meeting family/friends on course? Be extremely specific about where, down to the exact point and whether it will be the left or right hand side of the road. This will mean you can position yourself properly on approach

From the 2018 DCM thread I learned ...

• Pacers go at an even pace – allow them to pull away from you on the drags and reel them in on the descents
• Run the 1st 7miles slower than target pace
• Cut down on fibre the Thurs/Fri before DCM. Tuc crackers or pretzels each evening from then
• Pack some food for mile 20+ - you might be v sick of gels and bloks by then
• Zero tabs in water from the Thursday before race day. 2 a day spaced out over the day or at least on the Sat.
• Bring tissues for the portaloos
• Start queuing for portaloos after bag drop even if you don’t need it. You will by the time you get to the top of the line
• Grab water bottle at every water station, even if you feel like you don’t need it
• Halfway mark to 30k seems to be the optimal time to push.
• If you go out fast for the first 10k, you have a 70% chance of hitting the Wall
• Run the first 10k @5hr pace (this is advice for myself specifically, based off skyblue's 3:47:20 plan) – I have a question for skyblue about this
• Pace bands: Findmymarathon.com generates pace bands specific to certain marathons and depending on whether you want a conservative start, negative split etc.

All years there seemed to be 4 common issues that I noted:

• A lot of novices seem to get ill during taper time. Up the vitamin dose around this time and sleep sleep sleep
• Taper looks to be a bit of a head melter - you'll need to trust the plan more than ever here it seems
• Nobody appears to get much decent sleep the night before - don't be panicking if this happens as apparently it's common. REST is the important thing the night before, not sleep
• Clocks go back the weekend of DCM and a lot of people were worried their phones wouldn't automatically change. They did.

I know that most of this advice is for later on in the journey, but I won't have this kind of time again so I decided to spend today gathering any useful nuggets I could find.

My swotting session has still left me with 2 questions:

The first is aimed specifically at skyblue - you said that you couldn't have achieved your 3:47:20 with a pacer. Why is this? Too distracting?

The second is for anyone who can answer. I have been getting regular sports massages the whole way through the programme. My next one will be next Wed and when I go she is going to put together my pre-event programme, which I suspect - from how she was talking - is going to involve a pre-event massage the Saturday before DCM. As in, the day before. Is that not too close to the event? Or is it okay considering I have been going all along so won't have to be worked on too vigorously? I suspect that this will be a conversation that needs to be had with the therapist and that is fine, and I know I'm asking super early, but I will have to agree to an appointment date next week, so if the day before is under no circumstances an option please let me know.

Sorry for the super-long post!

ReeReeG

Bananaleaf...that is some post!!!

Huzzah!

ReeReeG wrote: »

Bananaleaf...that is some post!!!

We can retire now

Mr. Guappa

Epic stuff Bananaleaf!

* rips up notes for the next six weeks :pac:

Charliebull

DBB on the porridge , with milk or water and how long before running

Question on training plan,
I am down for a 12 mile this weekend and a 19 mile the following weekend, could I switch them as I am away the weekend of my 19 mile and will struggle for time to get 19 miles in

Great post banana leaf

Kellygirl

Brilliant post Bananaleaf.

With regards to the sports massage I would imagine it would be a nice rub down and making sure everything is ok the day before and nothing too major that would leave you in pain. I get a sports massage every 3 weeks and he’s always happy for me to go straight out for a run after or that evening. Some days as can do a speed session, other days he’d specify easy if he’s worked hard. You could check with them for sure though.

healy1835

Bananaleaf wrote: »

What did you learn this week?

Well, I know that this doesn't exactly answer the question, but since I have had nothing to do today except sit in bed and rest, I read through the Mentored Novices Threads for 2018, 2017 and 2016 :eek: so I will share with everyone what I have learned this week from my reading!!

Keep going! 2015 was a particularly good vintage

Mr. Guappa

eabha19 wrote: »

How was week 12 for you?
Week 12 felt a bit like trudging through, head down, getting on with it without necessarily feeling the love of it right now. Having said that the MP run on Tuesday felt good at the end - was happy that I managed to keep up the pace for the 9 miles although of course I still doubt my ability to do that for 26 miles! The long run, despite being a stepback, felt pretty damn long and I had to drag my sore feet around Tayto Park afterwards when all I wanted to do was sit on a couch and be fed carbs all day!

What did you learn this week?
16 miles is not noticeably easier than 20 miles!! Hopefully the converse of that is also true and I'll be saying 26 miles is not noticeably harder than 20 miles!!

Congrats on the half marathon racers - great results. There's a bit of a question over my half marathon next week - my friend's mam is dying and I've been asked to sing at the funeral. They seem to want a weekend funeral to accommodate people travelling over and have asked me to keep Saturday free - kind of weird and sad. Will plan for racing and if not I'll do 18 mile LSR on Sunday.

3 weeks til taper is a super exciting thought.

Bananaleaf take care of yourself and hope you're feeling better soon.

Yeah - I think our mental preparation tends to slip a little when it's "only" 16 miles. It's still a monster run and needs to be respected.

That's another nice week. Sorry to hear about your friend's mam. Sounds like you've a solid plan for the weekend run-wise anyway.

py wrote: »

Midweek runs
1 -  6.5Km, 6:18/Km,  150avg HR
2 -  13Km,  6:27/Km,  152avg HR (hills)
3 -  8Km,  6:30/Km,  154avg HR
LSR
19.4Km, 6:34/Km, 136avg HR

Got the runs done but found it odd that my HR data was elevated throughout the midweek runs. Late Wednesday the cold and sore throat (perhaps the same issue Bananaleaf had) kicked in after it worked through everyone else in the household... I thought I escaped it. This explains the elevated HR as it's about 10bpm higher than it usually is. Decided against taking any medication for it and stuck to the diet which is rich in nutrients and was happy to see the HR return to normal today on the LSR.

My 2nd midweek run involved a good bit of climbing compared to what I usually do and I enjoyed it so much I decided that I'd sign up for the Run the Line event which is a few weeks after DCM :pac:

Got physio tomorrow to give the legs a once over before DCHM and also check my feet for any signs of injury. Have had a niggle on the ball of my foot for a short while but I think it's down to my runners being at the end of their useful life (up to 700Km and punishment from a larger individual probably means the support in them is gone). I've another pair on the way but wanted to have a professional check it out anyway. Fairly sure it's the runners though.



The HR data I had was invaluable and it meant I could spot the illness before the full symptoms even kicked in.

Looking forward to the DCHM next week, going to try rest as much as possible this week so I'm as fresh as possible for it. I'm just hoping for more suitable conditions than we had at the FD10 but right now the temperature forecast is showing 19 degrees by midday

I only discovered that website recently - I just love it!

Just a general point on running post-DCM. Popular advice would be to take it handy for about 4 weeks (no hard days for every mile raced). Last year I didn't run at all for 10 days (probably excessive compared to general guidelines) and my first hard run was a parkrun 4 weeks after DCM. I ran just 34 miles in November (again probably on the cautious side), and I really felt that easing back into it like that allowed me to return stronger and mentally fresh for the next challenge. I'm just putting my view on DCM recovery across now while ye are still listening to me :pac:

Fraggle07

Love that summary Bananaleaf!!
Look after yourself and hope you recover soon.

How was week 12 for you?
Just back from 4 weeks out. Have to say I was really nervous running this week. I'm terrified of further injury. I did 7.5m, 3m, 3m and 10m yesterday. My 3m paces were a bit faster than my usual easy pace. It was an attempt to get fitness levels back up and to test my legs.

Physio think HM is risky. The way I look at it, it's only 3 miles more than the 10mile that I've just done and if I can't manage HM (at LSR pace), then I cannot see how I'll be ready in time for DCM. Consultants advice was a generic work away and do what you can do...

What did you learn this week?
That I love running Just really enjoyed being back out and at it again.