DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

fatboyfin

Hello! Secured a place in DCM and have been browsing this board - great reading, tips and hints.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
I've done the Belfast Marathon for the last 2 years in a row (4.08 and 3.52). All other pbs have been reached in training /general runs

PBs
5k 22.44
10k 46.21
Half 1.45.11
Marathon 3.52.18

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Usually try to get out 4 times a week, am fairly fit after completing the Belfast marathon in May. One night a week is 10k trails / hills etc with friends, others on road. Maybe 20 miles a week

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Want to improve my time, finish in 3.45 would be the target. 3.40 would be a dream

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?
Will do the boards plan, 4 or 5 days per week without changing current set up too much. Need to include strides / intervals into my training which has been lacking to date

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?
Injury

Why are you running this marathon?
Motivation to keep fit, get fitter, and improve running form.


Looking forward to following everyone's progress in training.

Baz

rainbow kirby

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Quick question on PMP calculation.

2 weeks ago I got a predicted time of 4:48 based on a 10k race from Feb and a half marathon from March.

I reviewed it yesterday after my 5km race from Friday and kept the half marathon time (as I thought it is prob a better indicator, it being a longer race) and I got 4:46.

I know it's only 2mins, but still ... yahoo!!

Juat wondering two things:

1. Is it better to use longer races to calculate marathon time, ie: the 10km and half rather than the 5k and half as I'll obviously never sustain my 5km effort in the marathon?

2. My plan is to review my PMP after every race. Is that the right idea?

Thank you

I probably wouldn't bother changing your PMP unless it suggests a drastic change (as in, your predicted time going from 4:45 ish to 4:30 etc). Too easy to get hung up in minutiae and for first timers it's better to run a little pessimistic about planned time, a lot of the calculators assume a bigger endurance base when predicting a marathon time from shorter races.

Dante

What is the best way to carry water on the longer runs? I don't particularly want to be carrying water bottles or wearing silly looking vests to hold bottles so curious as to how you guys manage it.

The Black Oil

DaaaaaaaaaaN wrote: »

What is the best way to carry water on the longer runs? I don't particularly want to be carrying water bottles or wearing silly looking vests to hold bottles so curious as to how you guys manage it.

I have a belt with a bottle. Search Amazon for 'water belt for running' and you'll find some. Bought mine in a bricks and mortar shop in Dublin.

Huzzah!

DaaaaaaaaaaN wrote: »

What is the best way to carry water on the longer runs? I don't particularly want to be carrying water bottles or wearing silly looking vests to hold bottles so curious as to how you guys manage it.

I wear a belt with bottles or I bring money to buy water when I pass a shop. Others stash their water along the route before they run it.

skyblue46

passinginterest wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice, or reassurance I suppose. Clontarf half is on Saturday, I had been following a plan specifically for it, but then opted to take a bit of a break and switch to DCM plan instead. Plan now is to run it as a relatively quick training run. I think I’ll aim to run with the 2hour pace group. If I was racing it I’d be aiming for 1.47 I think, so 2 seems like reasonable compromise. If it feels like too much effort I won’t have a problem slowing down. 2 hour pace would be 9.09/mile, and I’ve got a pretty decent base built up. It’s within the lsr pace from McMillan (8:21-9:38) based on my 5k (I used 22.20 which is actually a bit slower). I do usually run my long runs a bit slower though. I think running with the group will help with effort levels and it’s a very flat course so I’m thinking the benefits could outweigh the possibility of working a bit harder than normal and maybe needing a bit more recovery? I feel like if I can run a comfortable 2hr half at this stage it’ll be a good confidence boost for the rest of training. Any views welcome!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this as a plan. Another option would be to stay with the pacers until mile 9/10 and then finish at your HM pace just to get that nice feeling of running strongly late in the race.

healy1835

mister paul wrote: »

A quick question for those more experienced than I with this whole marathon thing, I'm following the meno plan after talking to people from these parts who've used it before and reckon I'll be able for it. Just starting week 2 now.

My 5k PB (May '19) is 19:44 (also ran 19:46 in the same month)

Based on the "more accurate" marathon calculator (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/) and a plan that should average 44 miles per week during marathon training, I should be able to run a 3:24 marathon. That's a pace of about 7:47 per mile.

The general consensus seems to be that other calculators are relatively accurate for every distance up to and including half-marathon but they have me running about 3:10 for the marathon (not a snowballs hope in hell of hitting that).

So my question, should my 10k, 10m and HM target paces be derived using my 5k time on the tinman calculator, or should I enter the project 538 marathon time into tinman and use that as a basis to get the other paces?

Or is there a third way of calculating them that I haven't considered?

There's a fairly big difference between working up from 5k and down from marathon (Project 538 estimate).

Distance|Project 538|Pace|Tinman|Pace
26.2|3:23:59|7:47|3:09:59|7:15
13.1|1:37:57|7:28|1:31:14|6:57
10m|1:13:19|7:19|1:08:18|6:49
10k|44:08|7:06|41:06|6:36

Hope the question makes sense to someone...

I suppose the biggest danger here is using a 5k time as any sort of indicator of a prospective marathon performance. Even using Half Marathon race times is fraught with danger. If you think sub 3:25 is a target then i'd base your training paces off that time (have you looked at the Jack Daniels calcuator too?)

As regards your race paces, i think that you should let them come naturally as the block progresses. You're gonna keep improving and who knows where you'll be in two months time going into a 10 mile race. I remember for my second marathon i made some jumps during that block that i didn't think were possible beforehand.

Race calculators are something that most of us succumb to. They're nice when you hit equivalent times, and give mere mortals like ourselves some signposts en route to wherever we're going, but (no matter what data they claim to use, or algorithims they apply) they're still to be taken on board with a load of caveats.

Huzzah!

passinginterest wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice, or reassurance I suppose. Clontarf half is on Saturday, I had been following a plan specifically for it, but then opted to take a bit of a break and switch to DCM plan instead. Plan now is to run it as a relatively quick training run. I think I’ll aim to run with the 2hour pace group. If I was racing it I’d be aiming for 1.47 I think, so 2 seems like reasonable compromise. If it feels like too much effort I won’t have a problem slowing down. 2 hour pace would be 9.09/mile, and I’ve got a pretty decent base built up. It’s within the lsr pace from McMillan (8:21-9:38) based on my 5k (I used 22.20 which is actually a bit slower). I do usually run my long runs a bit slower though. I think running with the group will help with effort levels and it’s a very flat course so I’m thinking the benefits could outweigh the possibility of working a bit harder than normal and maybe needing a bit more recovery? I feel like if I can run a comfortable 2hr half at this stage it’ll be a good confidence boost for the rest of training. Any views welcome!

skyblue46 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this as a plan. Another option would be to stay with the pacers until mile 9/10 and then finish at your HM pace just to get that nice feeling of running strongly late in the race.

Just to add that some of it is run on sand and there can be a headwind, so if the effort feels high, please don't feel compelled to stay in the group.

skyblue46

healy1835 wrote: »

I suppose the biggest danger here is using a 5k time as any sort of indicator of a prospective marathon performance. Even using Half Marathon race times is fraught with danger. If you think sub 3:25 is a target then i'd base your training paces off that time (have you looked at the Jack Daniels calcuator too?)

As regards your race paces, i think that you should let them come naturally as the block progresses. You're gonna keep improving and who knows where you'll be in two months time going into a 10 mile race. I remember for my second marathon i made some jumps during that block that i didn't think were possible beforehand.

Race calculators are something that most of us succumb to. They're nice when you hit equivalent times, and give mere mortals like ourselves some signposts en route to wherever we're going, but (no matter what data they claim to use, or algorithims they apply) they're still to be taken on board with a load of caveats.

+1 to this. I also noticed quite a few others getting caught up in talk about target times. As ariana said, it is too early for this. Please everybody just train to paces suggested by the training paces calculator. Let the times and fitness come to you. In five months time you or your friends won't care if you run 4:48, 4:50 or 5:50. You will have run a marathon...that's the target!

Laineyfrecks

Week 2 off to a good start:)
I just realised i signed up for the Clane 5k this Sunday( had completely forgotten about it!) Am i ok to still do my long run on Sat then race Sun morning?

Huzzah!

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Week 2 off to a good start:)
I just realised i signed up for the Clane 5k this Sunday( had completely forgotten about it!) Am i ok to still do my long run on Sat then race Sun morning?

As in race it all out? Not a great idea as that would mean two tough runs back to back, which would be an injury risk.

Laineyfrecks

Huzzah! wrote: »

As in race it all out? Not a great idea as that would mean two tough runs back to back, which would be an injury risk.

Yes was gonna race it? So what would be an alternative for me?

passinginterest

skyblue46 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this as a plan. Another option would be to stay with the pacers until mile 9/10 and then finish at your HM pace just to get that nice feeling of running strongly late in the race.

Huzzah! wrote: »

Just to add that some of it is run on sand and there can be a headwind, so if the effort feels high, please don't feel compelled to stay in the group.

Great stuff, exactly what I was hoping to hear. I had been thinking about trying to pick up to HM pace towards the end alright, but I’ll only do that if I’m feeling really comfortable and easy. I’ll definitely be careful with the sand, a friend who did it a previous year had mentioned it caused him an injury. They make it sound more like compacted trail in the race description.

mister paul

Singer wrote: »

3:24 sounds reasonable for now as your MP, factoring in general novice-ness and endurance being a minor weakness. From then I'd apply a sliding scale of paces down to your relatively strong 5k time, so something like:

MP: 7:45
Tempo: 7:05
10k: 6:50
5k: 6:20

Thanks B. They seem reasonable. Will go with that.

healy1835 wrote: »

I suppose the biggest danger here is using a 5k time as any sort of indicator of a prospective marathon performance. Even using Half Marathon race times is fraught with danger. If you think sub 3:25 is a target then i'd base your training paces off that time (have you looked at the Jack Daniels calcuator too?)

As regards your race paces, i think that you should let them come naturally as the block progresses. You're gonna keep improving and who knows where you'll be in two months time going into a 10 mile race. I remember for my second marathon i made some jumps during that block that i didn't think were possible beforehand.

Race calculators are something that most of us succumb to. They're nice when you hit equivalent times, and give mere mortals like ourselves some signposts en route to wherever we're going, but (no matter what data they claim to use, or algorithims they apply) they're still to be taken on board with a load of caveats.

Thanks for that J.

As the saying goes, "past performance is not indicative of future results". Based off the 5k time, JD calculator reckons I can hit a 3:09 marathon. Haha.

I'm sure that I'll get a much better idea of what the right effort levels/paces are as the training block progresses. If I'm not hitting "expected" targets in the race series, those targets will be updated accordingly to be more realistic. At the end of the day, I'm here to complete a marathon, not "run" myself into the ground. And thankfully there's plenty of folk on here and in real life that are willing to give advice when needed.

Treviso

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Yes was gonna race it? So what would be an alternative for me?

If you are doing your LSR on a Saturday, then you could use the 5k race as your recovery run i.e. run at recovery pace. You could also run your LSR on the Sunday and incorporate the 5k run into it - again the 5k will need to be run at your LSR pace. You might actually enjoy the 5k race running at such a slow pace

Remember, DCM is your target now - not the 5k race

fatboyfin

Ok, so having just joined the thread, and having spent the last 3 hours reading all the posts, I think I will reevaluate my run for tonight. Was planning a 8 or 10 mile run at 8.15 or 8.30min miles ..... but given the emphasis here on slowing down I figure best to take it down a notch to something more like 9min miles which will likely feel very slow but perhaps more enjoyable! And maybe take the distance down to 5 or 6 miles. Is this more along the lines to be thinking?

skyblue46

fatboyfin wrote: »

Ok, so having just joined the thread, and having spent the last 3 hours reading all the posts, I think I will reevaluate my run for tonight. Was planning a 8 or 10 mile run at 8.15 or 8.30min miles ..... but given the emphasis here on slowing down I figure best to take it down a notch to something more like 9min miles which will likely feel very slow but perhaps more enjoyable! And maybe take the distance down to 5 or 6 miles. Is this more along the lines to be thinking?

That would be a step in the right direction. I'd go so far as to say 9:30 per mile would be a good pace to go at.

fatboyfin

skyblue46 wrote: »

That would be a step in the right direction. I'd go so far as to say 9:30 per mile would be a good pace to go at.

thanks skyblue46

All feels counter intuitive!

skyblue46

fatboyfin wrote: »

thanks skyblue46

All feels counter intuitive!

It is of course. But you've speed read the thread and I presume have picked up on the reasons to do it. Remember you have done a 3:52 marathon. Doing easy runs at faster than your MP won't help your endurance or aerobic capacity....easy runs at 10 mins per mile most definitely will.

kemcloughlin

Ok I am convinced I need to change my approach. I went into McMillan and current pace based on 10k time is 10.57 for a 10 mile and 11.44 for a marathon.

Can someone please help me:

What pace do I do the easy runs and what pace do I do the lsr this week? What pace do I do my 10 mile race on Saturday? I am going HHN1 week 2

Sorry for all the questions but I need to get my head around this! Thanks for reading!

skyblue46

kemcloughlin wrote: »

Ok I am convinced I need to change my approach. I went into McMillan and current pace based on 10k time is 10.57 for a 10 mile and 11.44 for a marathon.

Can someone please help me:

What pace do I do the easy runs and what pace do I do the lsr this week? What pace do I do my 10 mile race on Saturday? I am going HHN1 week 2

Sorry for all the questions but I need to get my head around this! Thanks for reading!

There is a tab for training paces on that McMillan calculator. If you are using anything other than a desktop, such as a phone or tablet, I think you need to turn it sideways to landscape view to be able to see it.

DeepBlue

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace?

1. Yes and did a little too much ending up with 7 days running which I don't plan on doing again anytime soon.
2. Don't think so. I tried McMillan's suggested easy pace of 8.11 - 9.12 and this felt more of "moderate" pace rather than an "easy" pace. It definitely didn't feel like something I could keep doing all day if I had to.

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Strava indicates that many of you didn't get in all the required runs, and the overwhelming majority of you are running too fast, in some cases far too fast. You can't cheat the marathon - take a half-assed approach to the training and it will bite you in the backside come the big day.

Yes, MacMillan suggested that my easy pace should be faster, tried that, didn't like it and haven't settled on the correct easy pace yet but it's going to err on the slow side - probably something like 9.15 - 9.50 with LSRs something like 10.10 - 10.30.

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Running a 5 mile race followed by a parkrun the next morning was not the greatest idea. You are correct on the need to slow it down - for instance your LSR this evening should have been a good 30s per mile slower Considering the hilly routes, you can probably afford to take it easier again.

Yes, got roped in to the 5 miler. Then the following day tried to beat my PB on this particular parkrun course on my last run there and learned half way around that I hadn't planned this well (or at all!). Tbh though I'll still probably race the parkruns once a month.

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Are you doing the Ring of Kerry too?

Yes, I moved my LSR forward to today, easy run tomorrow and PMP run on Thursday with recovery run on Sunday. Going to go with fivethirtyeight's suggested PMP time of 8.46min/mile and ditch McMillan's suggestion of 8.01.

skyblue46

DeepBlue wrote: »

I tried McMillan's suggested easy pace of 8.11 - 9.12 and this felt more of "moderate" pace rather than an "easy" pace. It definitely didn't feel like something I could keep doing all day if I had to.

Yes, MacMillan suggested that my easy pace should be faster, tried that, didn't like it and haven't settled on the correct easy pace yet but it's going to err on the slow side - probably something like 9.15 - 9.50 with LSRs something like 10.10 - 10.30.


Yes, I moved my LSR forward to today, easy run tomorrow and PMP run on Thursday with recovery run on Sunday. Going to go with fivethirtyeight's suggested PMP time of 8.46min/mile and ditch McMillan's suggestion of 8.01.

This is a really smart and sensible approach. I find the McMillan paces to be on the fast side. I'd definitely think the slower end of easy is as fast as anyone should run easy with the LSRs a bit slower. Settling on your paces like you have done will be a huge benefit to you.

Mrs Mc

Soulsun wrote: »

would regular legs massage be of any benefit?

I would book in a sports massage every 4 weeks just to keep the legs flushed out particularly when the miles start to increase during marathon training. I would also build in a good stretching routine after long runs this is one I have used during marathon training works every muscle found it very good. http://www.hartmann-international.com/articles/5/hope-on-a-rope.aspx

Soulsun

Mrs Mc wrote: »

I would book in a sports massage every 4 weeks just to keep the legs flushed out particularly when the miles start to increase during marathon training. I would also build in a good stretching routine after long runs this is one I have used during marathon training works every muscle found it very good. http://www.hartmann-international.com/articles/5/hope-on-a-rope.aspx

thank you for the feedback

Bananaleaf

I did my 3mile easy tonight. I tried running with a friend as I have been doing everything solo up to now. It was 11:34min/mile.

While it felt fairly easy, I think I will aim for 12min/mile next time, just to make sure it is definitely easy

bucky08

Finally ran slow!! Felt good though ran 5km in 6:55km pace.. Going to keep my runs slow from now on only going back to full pace on race days....

kemcloughlin

Ran slow as advised - 13.01/mile or 8.05/km. Felt very relaxed and no big mad sweaty mess to deal with afterwards. But it was slow...hard to believe that this going to work but I have to trust in the process!

Mr. Guappa

Great to see so many of you running at a truly easy pace this week. Yes, it takes a bit of getting used, but stuck with it. Nice work!

Soulsun

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Great to see so many of you running at a truly easy pace this week. Yes, it takes a bit of getting used, but stuck with it. Nice work!

ha! and thanks for the advice, much appreciated.