DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

skyblue46

Lombardo123 wrote: »

I had a spare hour and was thinking about this the weekend so I went in to runzone in Rathgar. Wasn't busy so didn't feel too guilty asking the lad a few questions. Very helpful and knowledgeable. Think I have my next pair of runners picked out!

When we were chatting about the gels he directed me to the hi 5 just because thats what DCM will have. I'll have support as a dub at various different points if I needed anything specific but it made sense to look at what will be available.

If anyone is considering hi 5 then the options are that you can have either a syrupy type texture or more aqueous ones.

Then whatever your preference you can pick either caffeinated or decaffeinated depending on what you wanted.

Within each category was 2 flavours.. So plenty of choice.

I picked up the more aqueous one with caffeine as I wouldn't like the thicker ones. Looking forward to giving them a go.

My advice would be to carry everything you need with you. You could miss your friends amongst the crowds or there may not be gels at the point you expect on course. It's only a couple of years since the Dublin Half didn't have water at some stations as the delivery trucks were caught in traffic! You'll have put a lot of training into DCM so don't depend on others for a happy ending.

Kellygirl

DBB wrote: »

Skyblue46 and Kellygirl, many thanks. Great feedback there.
What are opinions on caffeinated vs uncaffeinated?

I’ve used both but I wouldn’t use caffeine the whole way round. I’ve kept the caffeine one for an added boost towards the end - usually my 2nd last or last gel. In my last two halves I’ve taken a Maurten first and then a caffeine isogel before heading into the last third. Whether it really helped or not I couldn’t tell you. Best bet is to try them on your long runs. Maybe try and have the same meal the evening before and same breakfast and see how the different gels work then.

skyblue46

DBB wrote: »

Skyblue46 and Kellygirl, many thanks. Great feedback there.
What are opinions on caffeinated vs uncaffeinated?
Why was I under the impression that backpacks, aren't allowed in the marathon? Did I dream that?! I have one from my mountain biking days, not sure about hoiking it around on LSRs

I'd only consider the caffeinated version for the last gel....but I didn't use one last year. The Maurtens had done their job and I was still feeling great at 23/24 miles. For anyone reading this chat about gels please don't for one second think they are the secret ingredient, they are not. Gels are your fuel but if you haven't tuned and run in your engine then the fuel is not going to stop the engine from spluttering to a standstill.

Mr. Guappa

skyblue46 wrote: »

I'd only consider the caffeinated version for the last gel....but I didn't use one last year. The Maurtens had done their job and I was still feeling great at 23/24 miles. For anyone reading this chat about gels please don't for one second think they are the secret ingredient, they are not. Gels are your fuel but if you haven't tuned and run in your engine then the fuel is not going to stop the engine from spluttering to a standstill.

Just a bit on the need for fuelling, and the reason for all this chat about gels. Your body has enough carbohydrate stores to last 90-120 minutes, and obviously we will be running for longer than this, so we need to supplement our carbohydrate stores with additional fuel to help get us through the 3/4/5 hours the marathon will take. As skyblue46 says, none of this matters if you haven't trained your body and your legs to last the distance. Lots and lots of easy miles in training should be your #1 priority, everything else, while important, is secondary.

Bananaleaf

Wow, great discussion. And thank you skyblue for that bit at the end about the gels not being a secret ingredient - this was something I was starting to wonder about. I was wondering if they were working, because I couldn't say for certain that I was getting a 'kick' from them. But I suppose the fact that I was finishing the longer runs without a drop in pace or without feeling exhausted means that they were.

I've used the aquagels.

I really like the tip about using a caffeine gel for the last push.

Is it correct to take gels on runs 90mins + ? And should they be every 30mins?

I often spied on last years thread and I also heard mention of zero tablets. I have tried these in water on some runs and they are nice. They are effervescent electrolyte tablets and are High5 too if I am thinking of the same thing.

From this week I plan to run/rest/cross according to the days I will run/rest/cross when the plan starts.

For the moment I will train my LSRs about a minute slower than my easy pace, which is about 2mins slower than my PMP. I will probably have to speed up the LSR in time.

Kellygirl

It depends on the individual. I’ve worked up to running for probably 2/2.5 hours training with no gels but I used need them for 90 mins plus and in training I’d prob take them every 45 mins then. You are taking them for a few reasons. Firstly to train you stomach into having them. Secondly to help you keep going and get your training run done and not be completely depleted of glycogen at the end - you still have to get back to training in the next day or two - which is also why it’s so important to eat after your run.

Zero tablets are brilliant. I would take them for a day or two before long runs when the weather is hot and humid and have one after my run too. They don’t give you energy. There are no carbs in them but they help keep your electrolytes balanced.

skyblue46

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Wow, great discussion. And thank you skyblue for that bit at the end about the gels not being a secret ingredient - this was something I was starting to wonder about. I was wondering if they were working, because I couldn't say for certain that I was getting a 'kick' from them. But I suppose the fact that I was finishing the longer runs without a drop in pace or without feeling exhausted means that they were.

I've used the aquagels.

I really like the tip about using a caffeine gel for the last push.

Is it correct to take gels on runs 90mins + ? And should they be every 30mins?

I often spied on last years thread and I also heard mention of zero tablets. I have tried these in water on some runs and they are nice. They are effervescent electrolyte tablets and are High5 too if I am thinking of the same thing.

From this week I plan to run/rest/cross according to the days I will run/rest/cross when the plan starts.

For the moment I will train my LSRs about a minute slower than my easy pace, which is about 2mins slower than my PMP. I will probably have to speed up the LSR in time.

For me gels are a marathon only thing. I do any long runs without fuelling as a way to train the body to use fat as fuel. As for the 'kick'...that's purely psychological. They don't make you go faster....you get a sugar rush high. They are fuel...they enable a 1.6 litre engine to keep running well, they don't turn it into a 3 litre turbo

DBB

skyblue46 wrote: »

For me gels are a marathon only thing. I do any long runs without fuelling as a way to train the body to use fat as fuel. As for the 'kick'...that's purely psychological. They don't make you go faster....you get a sugar rush high. They are fuel...they enable a 1.6 litre engine to keep running well, they don't turn it into a 3 litre turbo

I don't fuel up either on longer runs, for the same reason. Isn't it that you need to teach your body to use its fat reserves ahead of time? Loads more calories available via body fat than stored sugars.
I was initially a bit aghast at the idea of running without fuel, but actually, coupled with keeping the pace slow, it feels a lot better in reality!

Edited to add... That all said, is it that us novices need to practise with fuelling during training at some stage? See what works for us?

skyblue46

DBB wrote: »

I don't fuel up either on longer runs, for the same reason. Isn't it that you need to teach your body to use its fat reserves ahead of time? Loads more calories available via body fat than stored sugars.
I was initially a bit aghast at the idea of running without fuel, but actually, coupled with keeping the pace slow, it feels a lot better in reality!

Edited to add... That all said, is it that us novices need to practise with fuelling during training at some stage? See what works for us?

Haha... you're dragging me into a place I really don't want to go! I think fuelling should be done to ensure the product you choose agrees with your metabolism. That can be done in the last few weeks.

Slow running trains the body to deal with the last 6 miles of a marathon. 95% of runners don't run slow enough, lots of them crash and burn in the last few miles, most repeat the mistakes. Ye all have a training paces chart linked in the OP, please don't ignore it.

Kellygirl

In all honesty though I think for your first marathon you don’t really need to be over thinking it. It apparently takes a long time to teach the body to burn fat. You all have enough to be dealing with throughout the training so if you need a few gels to get you through a long run then so be it. Better to have done the 20 mile run with gels than crashed and burned at 14 miles in my opinion. When it’s all new to you I think it’s better to have the gels with you in case you need them rather than suffering through the long runs.

Strawberry Swan

DBB wrote: »

I don't fuel up either on longer runs, for the same reason. Isn't it that you need to teach your body to use its fat reserves ahead of time? Loads more calories available via body fat than stored sugars.
I was initially a bit aghast at the idea of running without fuel, but actually, coupled with keeping the pace slow, it feels a lot better in reality!

It's true there are way more calories available in fat reserves but, for the purposes of running a city marathon, I don't feel it's worth the effort in making drastic changes to your diet. By all means try and cut down simple carbs or not eating before runs and see how you get on. In order to avoid bonking, the vast majority of us need to take on extra calories.

I used Tailwind and gels. It is a bit of extra faff but not enough to stop running or carry a backpack. I carried the concentrate mixture in tiny bottles in my Flipbelt and carried a water bottle in my hand which I refilled at water stations or swapped out. Bottles can be bought to fit in the Flipbelt too if you didn't want to carry them. I used 3 gels as well. This method meant I took on energy in constant small amounts my tummy could absorb easily and I never felt low in energy.

DBB wrote: »

Edited to add... That all said, is it that us novices need to practise with fuelling during training at some stage? See what works for us?

Yes you'll need to practice different foods and different methods, usually on your long run. For me I don't need fuel until runs exceed 13 miles. See how you feel energy wise on your runs and practice with what you like and your tummy can handle. Everyone is different, it's trial and error though hopefully not too much error!

Huzzah!

DBB wrote: »

Edited to add... That all said, is it that us novices need to practise with fuelling during training at some stage? See what works for us?

Absolutely! Some people are lucky and try gels and they work fine. Others, like me, aren't so lucky and it's taken a lot of trial and error for me to get a strategy that works.

FWIW - the standard gels do not agree with me nor does Tailwind. I take Clif Shot Bloks. They do need to be taken with water, but not huge gulps; I just sip as I go. I did also take a bottle of caffeinated Tailwind for mile 18 on and I was delighted with life once I got some caffeine into my system but I think it's what sickened me near the end.

This also applies to how you fuel before you head out on a run, so it's no harm to start thinking about what breakfast you're going to eat on the day and to eat this before your long runs.

kyomi

Just an update on the training and a race report. Over the last four weeks I did 30 miles, 33 miles and 36 miles (the latter two were by mistake - the plan was to do 31 and 33 miles those two weeks) and then dropped back to 20 for a planned step-back week that coincided with Mini-Marathon week - nice to have a bit of a rest before a race!

My mini-marathon went well although my chip didn't work so I didn't get an official time. According to my Garmin, though, I finished in 46:56 which is a six-second PB for me (the last PB was from 2014). So I'm happy to finally be back where I was before taking time off to have a baby in 2017.

On the day itself I didn't get the best lead-up to the race as we were directed around what seemed like half of Dublin 2 rather than going straight to the bag drop from the train station as planned. This meant we were running late and still had to queue for the bag drop and then for the Portaloos. I had planned to do a mile warm-up but this went by the wayside - however I did get about half a mile of jogging done between the bathrooms and the bag drop.

I'd planned to see if I could stick to around 7:30 pace and I did manage this for the first couple of miles, before hitting the drag approaching the turnaround point which resulted in a 7:40. The next two miles were back on pace and then in the last mile I started to find it a real slog and ended up doing 7:45. I only realised today when I retraced the last kilometre during my lunchtime run that there was a good bit of hill as you approach the finish.

Coming up to the last bridge over the canal I was looking at my watch and it was already past 46 minutes so I'd more or less given up hope of breaking my PB of 47:02. However, as I approached the finish line I could see the clock above it was still under 47, so I broke into an almighty dash, hitting my watch just as the clock turned over to 47 minutes. I didn't realise until I checked my watch afterwards that from a chip time point of view I still had a couple of seconds to spare. It's a pity it's not an official PB and I can't even use it to get into the runners' pen in next year's Mini-Marathon, but I'll just have to try and match it in another race later in the year!

So it's back to normal service this week - 33 miles, with an 11-mile long run on Sunday.

skyblue46

If you query your result with the timing company they will ask for your race number and approximate time and will then check their start and finish video to give you an official time. I have had to do it more than once at different races.

Mr. Guappa

Hi kyomi, congratulations on that race, very well done. Out of interest, what pace will run the 11 miler at? I know you've previously mentioned that you intend following a homemade plan - I won't lie, this makes me very nervous! You've a very good base built up, and I'd hate to see you unwittingly sabotage yourself by following an ill-advised plan. I can't say that your plan is a bad one as we haven't seen it, and your posts so far indicate you have decent knowledge, but it's not something that would typically be recommended for a novice. Any particular reason you're not following one of the plans here, or another off-the-shelf plan?

kyomi

I actually did mean to post the plan here but haven't got around to it yet! (I mostly post on my phone but the plan is on an Excel spreadsheet.) Just to give an example, next week's plan would be rest on Monday, speed session on Tuesday (1.5 miles warm up and cool down, session in between), 3 easy miles at lunchtime on Wednesday, then on Thursday 8 miles with the start and finish easy and the middle three miles at sub 9 min mile pace. Then rest on Friday, parkrun Saturday, and 12 mile LSR Sunday.

All my easy runs including the LSR and any warm up/cool down miles would be around 9:40 - 10:30 pace - I've been really strict about not going any faster.

I'll try to post the plan over the next few days!

Edited to add, I'm not following a homemade plan because I don't trust the off-the-shelf plans or anything like that. Rather, it's based on the training habits that I've formed myself over the last few years and that I've found to work for me without injury. I'm definitely a creature of habit and even before I was thinking about marathon plans my week would look almost exactly like the one I've described above - session on Tuesday, medium run Thursday, parkrun Saturday, long run Sunday. I'm absolutely open to trying other plans as I still have plenty of time to decide - I'll see how the training goes over the next few weeks.

Mr. Guappa

Thanks for that kyomi. The first thing that jumps out at me there is that there is not nearly enough truly easy days in your schedule. Would the parkrun typically be raced? The LSR would count as a hard day due to the distance covered, so I see only the Wednesday 3 miler as a truly easy day. To help us build a picture, could you give a little more background? What would your monthly mileage be like over the past 12 months?

Laineyfrecks

skyblue46 wrote: »

Congratulations to Passinginterest and Laineyfrecks for 2 super PBs in Tallaght today. They're great morale boosters at the fast stuff before ye start learning to run slow

Thanks a mill was absolutely thrilled with my PB! Was a nice race & spread afterwards! Haven't been able to log in here in a while but back now!

skyblue46

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Thanks a mill was absolutely thrilled with my PB! Was a nice race & spread afterwards! Haven't been able to log in here in a while but back now!

Not to worry. So when will marathon training start? You'll be needing to slow things down a wee bit. No harm in doing the fast stuff for a couple of weeks more though.

Mr. Guappa

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Thanks a mill was absolutely thrilled with my PB! Was a nice race & spread afterwards! Haven't been able to log in here in a while but back now!

Good to have you back. There's been some good stuff posted over the last while on the need for (and the benefits of) lots and lots of easy miles. Have a read back over the thread and try put it into practice. You are really, really fast. Train smart and you will nail this marathon.

Laineyfrecks

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Do you have a recent race time that you can use to calculate your paces? If not, try and get to a parkrun one of the coming Saturday's and get an up-to-date gauge on where you're at. I know you listed 2017 PB's before, but you should train to current fitness, not previous fitness, and not to a goal time. Train at suitable paces for where you are now.

Sorry i am a bit confused as to how slow i should be going for my LSR? I feel quite comfortable at my paces recorded on Strava but have been told to slow down more! Just want to make sure i get the best out of my training

skyblue46

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Sorry i am a bit confused as to how slow i should be going for my LSR? I feel quite comfortable at my paces recorded on Strava but have been told to slow down more! Just want to make sure i get the best out of my training

To get the body to adapt to racing a marathon you should be doing easy runs and long runs in the range of 9:35-10 mins per mile, 6-6:15 per km. I know it'll feel really slow but it will be worth it.

Laineyfrecks

skyblue46 wrote: »

To get the body to adapt to racing a marathon you should be doing easy runs and long runs in the range of 9:35-10 mins per mile, 6-6:15 per km. I know it'll feel really slow but it will be worth it.

So i should do these times for every slow run no matter what my Marathon goal is?

Laineyfrecks

skyblue46 wrote: »

Yep. Because you base training on your current fitness. They are training paces for a 21 min 5k runner. Don't be worried. I'm an aul fella and I did long and easy runs at 9-9:40 and ran 3:16 for DCM. The sessions will build your speed, easy running makes your body adapt to the particular requirements of a marathon.

Wow thats a brill time...well done! I'm not exactly a yougone myself but i am hoping to achieve a decent time although obviously i will see how things go throughout my training! Thanks for the advice, i will start slowing down for my long runs

Laineyfrecks

skyblue46 wrote: »

Not to worry. So when will marathon training start? You'll be needing to slow things down a wee bit. No harm in doing the fast stuff for a couple of weeks more though.

Sorry i completely skipped over this! Hoping to do the boards plan so will start end of this month! Will just need a few things exlained? Are Monday & Friday rest days? Should i be running 5 days in total following the boards plan?

skyblue46

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Sorry i completely skipped over this! Hoping to do the boards plan so will start end of this month! Will just need a few things exlained? Are Monday & Friday rest days? Should i be running 5 days in total following the boards plan?

The boards plan is a 5 day a week plan alright. There's the option to do 3 easy miles on another day also.

Anyway I've been butting in here too much :pac: The mentors will give a good run down on the plans before they begin.

Huzzah!

skyblue46 wrote: »

The boards plan is a 5 day a week plan alright. There's the option to do 3 easy miles on another day also.

Anyway I've been butting in here too much :pac: The mentors will give a good run down on the plans before they begin.

Your input is always welcome.

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Sorry i completely skipped over this! Hoping to do the boards plan so will start end of this month! Will just need a few things exlained? Are Monday & Friday rest days? Should i be running 5 days in total following the boards plan?

Yes, it's a total of five running days but you can do an optional recovery run on Monday or Friday. You'll need to keep the vast majority of your runs at easy/recovery pace, not just long runs. The session day is scheduled for Wednesday. All of the race series races are pencilled in too with an appropriate taper/recovery for each should you wish to race them.

We will go into more detail on the sessions closer to the time.

py

So I've got my copy of the spreadsheet with the Hal Higdon (converted to Kms for my metric based brain :pac:) and was wondering around the pace for the lsr each week.

If my PMP is ~5:30/Km and my easy runs should be ~30-40 seconds slower per Km, what sort of pace should I be running the lsr at? 6:30/Km? Slower again?

ReeReeG

py wrote: »

So I've got my copy of the spreadsheet with the Hal Higdon (converted to Kms for my metric based brain :pac:) and was wondering around the pace for the lsr each week.

If my PMP is ~5:30/Km and my easy runs should be ~30-40 seconds slower per Km, what sort of pace should I be running the lsr at? 6:30/Km? Slower again?

Hey py. Yeah 6.30/km looks about right. Ideally rather than working back from a planned MP, we should be all training to current fitness and the training paces recommended on the back of recent PBs. I looked at your 10k PB and in fairness it adds up well good job!

ReeReeG

kyomi wrote: »

My mini-marathon went well although my chip didn't work so I didn't get an official time. According to my Garmin, though, I finished in 46:56 which is a six-second PB for me (the last PB was from 2014). So I'm happy to finally be back where I was before taking time off to have a baby in 2017.

On the day itself I didn't get the best lead-up to the race as we were directed around what seemed like half of Dublin 2 rather than going straight to the bag drop from the train station as planned. This meant we were running late and still had to queue for the bag drop and then for the Portaloos. I had planned to do a mile warm-up but this went by the wayside - however I did get about half a mile of jogging done between the bathrooms and the bag drop.

I'd planned to see if I could stick to around 7:30 pace and I did manage this for the first couple of miles, before hitting the drag approaching the turnaround point which resulted in a 7:40. The next two miles were back on pace and then in the last mile I started to find it a real slog and ended up doing 7:45. I only realised today when I retraced the last kilometre during my lunchtime run that there was a good bit of hill as you approach the finish.

Coming up to the last bridge over the canal I was looking at my watch and it was already past 46 minutes so I'd more or less given up hope of breaking my PB of 47:02. However, as I approached the finish line I could see the clock above it was still under 47, so I broke into an almighty dash, hitting my watch just as the clock turned over to 47 minutes. I didn't realise until I checked my watch afterwards that from a chip time point of view I still had a couple of seconds to spare. It's a pity it's not an official PB and I can't even use it to get into the runners' pen in next year's Mini-Marathon, but I'll just have to try and match it in another race later in the year!

That's superb running on what was a pretty hot afternoon! I know a lot of people who didn't have a great race, well done for pushing through!