DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

rizzee

Got a 7km in last night at 40:11 was really trying to stay slow. I don't have a pmp, or finishinf time, I just want to get over the line. I think I'll be doing my slow runs in the 18 week plan at 6:30-6:40/km?

Huzzah!

rizzee wrote: »

Got a 7km in last night at 40:11 was really trying to stay slow. I don't have a pmp, or finishinf time, I just want to get over the line. I think I'll be doing my slow runs in the 18 week plan at 6:30-6:40/km?

It's no problem that you don't have a PMP; you can (and should) base your training paces on current fitness. Using your recent 5k PB time of 22:49, the pace range you say above looks good to me.

rizzee

Huzzah! wrote: »

It's no problem that you don't have a PMP; you can (and should) base your training paces on current fitness. Using your recent 5k PB time of 22:49, the pace range you say above looks good to me.

Thanks a mil

clickhere

py wrote: »

So I've got my copy of the spreadsheet with the Hal Higdon (converted to Kms for my metric based brain :pac:) and was wondering around the pace for the lsr each week.

If my PMP is ~5:30/Km and my easy runs should be ~30-40 seconds slower per Km, what sort of pace should I be running the lsr at? 6:30/Km? Slower again?

Hi py, I'm like your self with the Kms in my head. Any chance of a copy of the spreadsheet you converted. Thank you.

Ballybog

Wow, so much fantastic information here ! I am still struggling to get my head around the slow paces needed. I am a slow runner as is, but conscious that I seem to be running all my runs at the same pace - regardless of distance or day

My current times:
5km 28min
10km 59min
Half 2hr 13 - however this was in Wicklow up the hills, a tough route (Glen to Glen half)

I am currently getting out 3 /4 times a week: Parkrun on Saturday, Longish run on Sunday (10km) and between one or two 8km runs mid week. One Fitness class mid week too.

Is this sufficient until the plan officially starts ?

So my current average speed on all runs is between 6 - 6.30min / KM - how slow should I actually go to build up the base ?

py

clickhere wrote: »

Hi py, I'm like your self with the Kms in my head. Any chance of a copy of the spreadsheet you converted. Thank you.

Of course, here you go - Marathon Plan in KMs. If you see any mistakes/issues with it let me know.

Huzzah!

Ballybog wrote: »

Wow, so much fantastic information here ! I am still struggling to get my head around the slow paces needed. I am a slow runner as is, but conscious that I seem to be running all my runs at the same pace - regardless of distance or day

My current times:
5km 28min
10km 59min
Half 2hr 13 - however this was in Wicklow up the hills, a tough route (Glen to Glen half)

I am currently getting out 3 /4 times a week: Parkrun on Saturday, Longish run on Sunday (10km) and between one or two 8km runs mid week. One Fitness class mid week too.

Is this sufficient until the plan officially starts ?

So my current average speed on all runs is between 6 - 6.30min / KM - how slow should I actually go to build up the base ?

Have you decided on a plan yet? Not long now until the plans start, so you could introduce an extra weekly run.

You'll need to work a bit on slowing those runs down, too. For context, I'm working off a 5k time of 27:20 at the moment and my easy runs are about 7:30 a kilometer.

Ballybog

Thanks Huzzah, I was thinking I am too "fast" alright. Will try to slow down this week.

I am looking at the boards plan, that seems to be the best fit. Really struggling to find the time for a 5th run in a week, have a long commute with a 5am wake up, as well as 50 million activities with the kids in the evenings, but if there is a will there is a way.
Will introduce a 4th run next week and build from there.

positron

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

You may have noticed that we’ve occasionally mentioned the importance of slowing down :pac:
I just wanted to explore some of the reasons for this a little bit.

It sounds counter-intuitive – run slower to get faster. But it works!
Running at any distance is a largely aerobic event, but at marathon distance this is especially true. Even for a 10km race, 90% of the energy required to run the race is produced via aerobic metabolism.



We achieve a strong aerobic base through lots and lots of slow, easy paced running (aerobic exercise). A strong aerobic system basically means that your body is supplying enough oxygen to your muscles.

Easy running strengthens the aerobic system and means that your body can withstand more time running and, importantly, easy running also means minimal recovery time.

Regular aerobic training produces muscular adaptations that help your body to utilize oxygen, preserve glycogen stores by using fat for fuel, and generally become more efficient, helping you to better manage longer distances.

When you run too fast, you cross the threshold into anaerobic exercise and you are no longer building that aerobic engine. You are also sacrificing future workouts as your body will not be sufficiently recovered to get the most from the next run.

Hopefully this will sink in for some more of you. There are loads of articles available on this, such as here

TLDR: SLOW DOWN!

I was doing some reading thru the thread and thank you Mr. Guappa for this post.

I trained and ran finished DCM 2017 and 2018 and despite reading many many articles about running slow to run faster, I don't think I had grasped the idea fully. And by that I mean, sure it's easy enough to understand, but whole another thing to put to practice. I always thought that running really slow long runs are just to get more time on your feet and (here comes the silly part) that I don't have to worry too much about it because I stand all day (standing desk for laptop). Does standing really help with running? Perhaps it does.

So this week I replaced Vivoactive 3 with the new Garmin FR245 (brilliant watch by the way, I would recommend it), and I went for a usual 5k run, on my usual 5k route, doing my usual type of running (not hard, just a regular run). And the "Training Effect" widget on this new watch is reporting a score of "5 - Overreaching" score, and to rest/easy runs for next 72 hours!

I think I will try doing more of these 70% heart rate runs (around 140 for me) this year and see how it works out. Giving science and logic a chance, who would have thought.

Mr. Guappa

Good stuff positron! It can take a while to sink in but I can speak first hand that it works. I had my doubts last year, I mean how could running slower make me faster? But, I trusted the plan and it worked. As it says in the OP, "Once you think you run slow enough, run even slower." I know it probably sounds like we repeat the slow down mantra ad nauseum, but it's for good reason.

I follow a guy on Strava who has run two 2:20 marathons this year, that's 5:20/mile (3:19/km). Meanwhile, the vast majority of his training is done at 7:00-8:00 mins per mile (4:20-5:00/km). If he can slow it down that much compared to his marathon pace, and achieve those times, then I've no problem slowing down too.

rainbow kirby

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Hi all

I have a question - I am trying to personalise the training plan and would like to work out my planned marathon pace.

Given my PBs, what would be a realistic finish time for me?

5k - 27:44 (Jan)
10k - 57:20 (Feb)
1/2 - 2:10:17 (March)

I would love 4:30 but I think 4:40 is probably more realistic. Am I way out? I am working in kms too (sorry, I have such a mental block when it comes to miles) and I think I have correctly worked out that if I was to aim for 4:30, my PMP would be 6:20min/kms. I feel that running my other runs very slow will make this fairly manageable. Am I wrong?

May I also ask, 'easy' and 'LSR' - is it okay for them to be run at the same pace? If my PMP is 6.20min/kms, is it okay that all my other ones (easy and LSR) are run at an average of about 9min kms?

Thank you

I would be running similar sorts of times right now, was a bit slower at the start of the spring marathon training cycle and I ran 4:51 in Manchester and 5:19 in London 3 weeks later (after an injury flared up after around 12km). 4:30-4:40 is probably a reasonable goal, particularly if it's your first marathon. You can always re-evaluate up or down depending on how your training goes.

Huzzah!

Ballybog wrote: »

Thanks Huzzah, I was thinking I am too "fast" alright. Will try to slow down this week.

I am looking at the boards plan, that seems to be the best fit. Really struggling to find the time for a 5th run in a week, have a long commute with a 5am wake up, as well as 50 million activities with the kids in the evenings, but if there is a will there is a way.
Will introduce a 4th run next week and build from there.

The Boards plan is a five-day a week plan. I'm not trying to put you off but I would pick the plan that suits my lifestyle best - if that means picking the HH plan so be it. If you're happy to make the adjustments to your life for the 18 weeks, then by all means, pick the Boards plan. Just be as realistic as you can.

Laineyfrecks

Happy Friday all just a few questions!
Is it ok to enter races other than the ones stated on the plan or is it best not too? Also i will not be here for the half marathon so should i try book a diff one, i think theres one on the 14th of Sept? Finally i've never done strides before, so should i wait till the plan starts or start trying them out now? Also what exactly are they & is it a 4Mile run with 5 x 100m strides included in the run? Sorry for all the questions!

kyomi

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Thanks for that kyomi. The first thing that jumps out at me there is that there is not nearly enough truly easy days in your schedule. Would the parkrun typically be raced? The LSR would count as a hard day due to the distance covered, so I see only the Wednesday 3 miler as a truly easy day. To help us build a picture, could you give a little more background? What would your monthly mileage be like over the past 12 months?

I think you're right Mr. Guappa, although I hadn't thought about it like that until you mentioned it, because I was thinking of the LSR as an easy run. I would typically jog the parkrun and I often do it with the buggy containing a two year old so definitely not breaking any records speedwise - however, I do sometimes race it or do it as a tempo run when I don't have the buggy.

I think what I'll do is make sure I have at least two easy runs per week - i.e. if I do the parkrun as a tempo I'll do the Thursday 8 mile as an easy run, or skip the session on Tuesday and just do a few easy miles instead.

In terms of my average mileage, over the last 11 months (which is as far back as my Garmin goes) I've done roughly between 89 and 110 miles per month. My weekly mileage has risen from 15-20 miles in 2018 to 25 miles earlier this year to 30 miles now.

Will be back in a minute to post my plan (hopefully)!

kyomi

OK, here's my marathon plan - apologies for the picture format. I notice it's also the other way around compared to most marathon plans - i.e. the days go down and the weeks go across - so I hope it doesn't make anyone cross-eyed!

I'm only posting the bit from where I currently am, as I've already finished the first cycle (which was building up from 20 to 30 miles per week).

It's actually quite similar to the Boards plan in some ways - e.g. taking Monday and Friday as rest days! Also like the boards plan, it builds up to two 20-mile runs.

kyomi

Cycle 2 is the base-building phase, Cycle 3 is the first 8 weeks of proper marathon training, and Cycle 4 is the last eight weeks.

Treviso

kyomi wrote: »

Cycle 2 is the base-building phase, Cycle 3 is the first 8 weeks of proper marathon training, and Cycle 4 is the last eight weeks.

Hi Kyomi, what time are you hoping to run in DCM? The plan you're following look s like quite an advanced plan. Nothing wrong with that but two sessions a week along with a steady weekly increase in miles might cause an injury. What pace do you run the Lunchtime & parkruns at?

I'm also following an advanced plan which goes up to 57 miles a week, but that mostly only has 1 session a week

Treviso

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Happy Friday all just a few questions!
Is it ok to enter races other than the ones stated on the plan or is it best not too? Also i will not be here for the half marathon so should i try book a diff one, i think theres one on the 14th of Sept? Finally i've never done strides before, so should i wait till the plan starts or start trying them out now? Also what exactly are they & is it a 4Mile run with 5 x 100m strides included in the run? Sorry for all the questions!

Hey Lainey, nothing wrong with entering races on the plan. Adjust your training for before and after the races. For strides, see here for the explanation

https://www.runnersworld.com/ask-coach-jenny/how-to-run-strides

I like to do the strides during the run itself but a lot of people prefer to do them at the end of the run.

clickhere

py wrote: »

Of course, here you go - Marathon Plan in KMs. If you see any mistakes/issues with it let me know.

Your a star py, thank you so much for that. That makes it so much easier for me. I will print it out.

Mr. Guappa

kyomi wrote: »

I think you're right Mr. Guappa, although I hadn't thought about it like that until you mentioned it, because I was thinking of the LSR as an easy run. I would typically jog the parkrun and I often do it with the buggy containing a two year old so definitely not breaking any records speedwise - however, I do sometimes race it or do it as a tempo run when I don't have the buggy.

I think what I'll do is make sure I have at least two easy runs per week - i.e. if I do the parkrun as a tempo I'll do the Thursday 8 mile as an easy run, or skip the session on Tuesday and just do a few easy miles instead.

In terms of my average mileage, over the last 11 months (which is as far back as my Garmin goes) I've done roughly between 89 and 110 miles per month. My weekly mileage has risen from 15-20 miles in 2018 to 25 miles earlier this year to 30 miles now.

Will be back in a minute to post my plan (hopefully)!

Hi kyomi. Firstly, you have a really good base built up over the last 11 months - really good job there. I noticed that in your original post you mentioned your hope was just to finish, and maybe sub 4:00 - that seems like a reasonable target based on your mini marathon time.

As Treviso mentioned, that is quite an advanced plan, and there is nothing wrong with that per se, provided you are able for it. I would re-iterate the point about less sessions and more easy running.

I didn't notice any warm-up races included - we'd definitely recommend doing at least one, say a half-marathon, mid-way through the training block. Do you have any in mind?

I'd be very interested to hear what some of the more experienced runners around the place think of your plan. While the mileage is way up on what would be covered in the boards plan, you do have a good base to handle that. On the other hand, I'd hate to see you overdo it and put a very good marathon at risk.

Mr. Guappa

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Happy Friday all just a few questions!
Is it ok to enter races other than the ones stated on the plan or is it best not too? Also i will not be here for the half marathon so should i try book a diff one, i think theres one on the 14th of Sept? Finally i've never done strides before, so should i wait till the plan starts or start trying them out now? Also what exactly are they & is it a 4Mile run with 5 x 100m strides included in the run? Sorry for all the questions!

As Treviso mentioned, it is absolutely fine to enter races that are not on the plan, just don't go mad and start entering loads of them :eek:
14th September would be absolutely perfect for a half marathon.

If you feel like it there is no harm in trying out a few strides before starting the plan. I typically do them towards the end of the run, and it doesn't really matter too much if you do 4 easy miles plus strides, or 4 easy miles including strides. There is a really good explanation of strides in this post from last years thread: Strides

And keep the questions coming, that's what we're here for!

Laineyfrecks

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Good stuff positron! It can take a while to sink in but I can speak first hand that it works. I had my doubts last year, I mean how could running slower make me faster? But, I trusted the plan and it worked. As it says in the OP, "Once you think you run slow enough, run even slower." I know it probably sounds like we repeat the slow down mantra ad nauseum, but it's for good reason.

I follow a guy on Strava who has run two 2:20 marathons this year, that's 5:20/mile (3:19/km). Meanwhile, the vast majority of his training is done at 7:00-8:00 mins per mile (4:20-5:00/km). If he can slow it down that much compared to his marathon pace, and achieve those times, then I've no problem slowing down too.

Just back from an 8mile slow run & i managed to get to about 9 and a half min miles! I'm not gonna lie this is gonna take some getting used to but the more i do i suppose the more natural it will become, only thing is i now prob need to change my playlist as "don't stop me now" by Queen doesn't exactly entice you to slow down Also i tried out a few strides at the end, not sure if they were done correctly but again the more practice i get the better! Anyways cheers for the advice:)
Oh & i booked that half marathon for 14th of Sept:)

kyomi

Treviso wrote: »

Hi Kyomi, what time are you hoping to run in DCM? The plan you're following look s like quite an advanced plan. Nothing wrong with that but two sessions a week along with a steady weekly increase in miles might cause an injury. What pace do you run the Lunchtime & parkruns at?

Dream goal would be under 4 hours but because it's my first, I'm really aiming just to finish.

I usually do the easy runs (lunchtime and most of the parkruns) at 9:30-10:30 minute miles.

Mr. Guappa wrote:

As Treviso mentioned, that is quite an advanced plan, and there is nothing wrong with that per se, provided you are able for it. I would re-iterate the point about less sessions and more easy running.

Based on these two pieces of advice from Treviso and Mr. Guappa I think I'll pull back on the interval sessions - maybe only do one every second week, and do six miles easy instead on the other weeks.

Mr. Guappa wrote:

I didn't notice any warm-up races included - we'd definitely recommend doing at least one, say a half-marathon, mid-way through the training block. Do you have any in mind?

My running pals are advising me to sign up for the Dublin half so I might do that. Would the idea be to race it, to do it as a long run, or to try to do it at marathon pace?

I'll be abroad at the end of July/start of August and on the Sunday when I have a 16-mile LSR planned, there's a half-marathon on locally to the place we're staying. I do love doing races while on holidays - would it be a bad idea to do the half if it means missing the 16-mile run?

kyomi

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Just back from an 8mile slow run & i managed to get to about 9 and a half min miles! I'm not gonna lie this is gonna take some getting used to but the more i do i suppose the more natural it will become, only thing is i now prob need to change my playlist as "don't stop me now" by Queen doesn't exactly entice you to slow down Also i tried out a few strides at the end, not sure if they were done correctly but again the more practice i get the better! Anyways cheers for the advice:)
Oh & i booked that half marathon for 14th of Sept:)

It does get easier Laineyfrecks, I've been slowing it down for a couple of months now and I've sort of got into the habit of it. If you have a heart rate monitor on your Garmin, that can help - mine shows the HR training zones and there's a little pointer that shows when you've slipped into a faster training zone - I find it catches my eye more than a change in pace would.

I also listen to podcasts instead of music so I don't find myself speeding up when I hear a favourite running song!

Laineyfrecks

kyomi wrote: »

It does get easier Laineyfrecks, I've been slowing it down for a couple of months now and I've sort of got into the habit of it. If you have a heart rate monitor on your Garmin, that can help - mine shows the HR training zones and there's a little pointer that shows when you've slipped into a faster training zone - I find it catches my eye more than a change in pace would.

I also listen to podcasts instead of music so I don't find myself speeding up when I hear a favourite running song!

Yes there is a heart rate monitor on it so i must try that!! I suppose its just a matter of adjusting really!
Oh i will try the podcasts be a nice change from the music too(although nothing beats actually singing along to my fav songs whilst running)
Cheers

Mr. Guappa

Laineyfrecks wrote: »

Just back from an 8mile slow run & i managed to get to about 9 and a half min miles! I'm not gonna lie this is gonna take some getting used to but the more i do i suppose the more natural it will become, only thing is i now prob need to change my playlist as "don't stop me now" by Queen doesn't exactly entice you to slow down Also i tried out a few strides at the end, not sure if they were done correctly but again the more practice i get the better! Anyways cheers for the advice:)
Oh & i booked that half marathon for 14th of Sept:)

Great stuff - looks like you paced it pretty well too. It can take a bit of getting used to alright, but with practice it will become second nature. As the mileage ramps up you will be glad of the easy days too! I spotted this article in another thread earlier, and it's worth a few minutes of everyone's time.

Laineyfrecks

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Great stuff - looks like you paced it pretty well too. It can take a bit of getting used to alright, but with practice it will become second nature. As the mileage ramps up you will be glad of the easy days too! I spotted this article in another thread earlier, and it's worth a few minutes of everyone's time.

Cheers actually enjoyed it too! Some good reading in that article...has to be some truth in it lots of good advice here, thanks

Mr. Guappa

As I'm sure you are all aware, it's now just two weeks until our plans kick off! Of course, this means that DCM is now only 20 weeks away - it's about to get very real folks

If you haven't chosen a plan yet, now is the time to decide. Take a look at the HHN1 and Boards plans and see what might suit you. Either of these plans are guaranteed to get you through the marathon. The Boards plan is slightly more advanced with more runs done at marathon pace. Anyone who is running regularly for 6+ months, and is comfortably running 10k+ without stopping is well able for the Boards plan, for any newer runners we'd suggest the HHN1 plan. There will of course be exceptions, so please ask if you are unsure of anything related to the plans, or otherwise. As Huzzah! mentioned earlier, you need to be sure that your chosen plan will fit around your life too. If you have a particular target time in mind, the Boards plan may be a better option for you, provided you are able for it. I also came across this whopper of a post from Ososlo regarding training paces. It's excellent.

The coming week seems like a good time to think about your form when running. The basic things to try and watch out for include:

Posture - run tall with your upper body straight, but relaxed

• Hands - no clenched fists, fingers relaxed

• Head - chin slightly tucked in, jaw relaxed

• Shoulders - keep the shoulders down, and you've guessed it.... relaxed!

Try and do a check every half mile or mile during your run, and let us know how you get on!

From observing those of you in the strava group, I'd be concerned that many of you are not running consistently enough. It's not going to be wise to jump from running 1-2 days a week up to 4-5 times a week once the plans start, so please use the next two weeks to get build up the consistency. If you start now, it will become part of your routine before you know it.
On the positive side, it's great to see that our "keep it easy" message might finally be making sense for some of you. **cough** Laineyfrecks **cough** :pac:

If you're not already in the strava group, well there is no time like the present to join in the fun. HERE we are - pop myself, ReeReeG or Huzzah! a PM when you join, and we'll accept you into the group.

I should also note to any novice marathoners reading this thread thinking they've missed the boat - it's not too late. Pop in and introduce yourself - the more the merrier. If you've already introduced yourself, well maybe it's time for an update?

Lombardo123

Nice PMP run in the sun this week, a welcome change of scenery.

Wouldn't be a fan of doing a full marathon in it!

Doc76

Hi room for another? I don’t have a number yet but hoping to get one on July 1. Training anyway and signed up for the race series half in September.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs?
Have raced loads (including 26.2s along time ago) but PBs are a distant past! Just run/race for fun now. I’ve been running for 25 years.
Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? no
How much training do you currently do ? 4 jogs a week (18 miles thereabouts) but also strength train 2x per week and do 3 cardio classes a week (will definitely scale this back as training for marathon progresses if I get a spot)
What do you want to achieve? I’d love to finish under 5 hours (4:45ish?!) I want to feel good though throughout the race and injury free.
How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow? Realistically 4 days and plan to follow HH novice 1 which I have used successfully in the past.
What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up? It’s been so long since I’ve run a marathon or any race longer than a 1/2 marathon I worry about the last 10k but hope properly training will make it work. Also hope I actually get a number when they reopen entries on July 1!
Why are you running this marathon? Just to experience a marathon again especially in Dublin as I’ve never done it.

Thanks for the welcome. I don’t usually track my runs in Strava (I use Runkeeper) but have just signed up for it.