Local Elections 2019

Fan of Netflix

maccored wrote: »

not really. they hoovered up the unhappy FF voters the last time. this time the same voters went back to FF (standard Irish voting technique). Quite healthy for SF in fact.

Lol losing half your seats is "quite healthy" ?? Totally absurd stuff.

Fan of Netflix

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Do you think people have "felt the recovery" more than is made out?

No but I think many Sinn Fein and PBP voters didn't bother voting. Turnout down and especially in working class and young voters. A lot of voters weren't bothered according to their canvassers. And realistically councillors have extremely limited powers and none in regard to the economy.

Zubeneschamali

markodaly wrote: »

The SD's are really Labour without the baggage.

I fully expect the SDP to merge with Labour in five years or so. Looking at the history:

In 1944, the National Labour Party split from Labour, and in 1950 they merged again.

In 1977, the Socialist Labour Party split off and died.

In the late 80s, Labour expelled various people (like Clare Daly), and Joe Higgins went off to form the Socialist Party.

In 1990, the Democratic Socialist party of Jim Kemmy merged with Labour (Kemmy quit Labour back in 1972). In 1992 they merged with the Independent Socialist Party of Declan Bree (who later quit in 2007).

In 1999 they merged with Democratic Left (a split from the Workers party, itself originally official Sinn Féin).

And know we have the SDP - Shortall is ex-Labour, and Murphy was in the Workers Party, Democratic Left and Labour.

They are not really new, it is just the same people on the left changing labels and feuding with each other.

Fan of Netflix

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I fully expect the SDP to merge with Labour in five years or so. Looking at the history:

In 1944, the National Labour Party split from Labour, and in 1950 they merged again.

In 1977, the Socialist Labour Party split off and died.

In the late 80s, Labour expelled various people (like Clare Daly), and Joe Higgins went off to form the Socialist Party.

In 1990, the Democratic Socialist party of Jim Kemmy merged with Labour (Kemmy quit Labour back in 1972). In 1992 they merged with the Independent Socialist Party of Declan Bree (who later quit in 2007).

In 1999 they merged with Democratic Left (a split from the Workers party, itself originally official Sinn Féin).

And know we have the SDP - Shortall is ex-Labour, and Murphy was in the Workers Party, Democratic Left and Labour.

They are not really new, it is just the same people on the left changing labels and feuding with each other.

I doubt Shortall or Catherine Murphy would go back with the Labour Party and I wouldn't blame them. Labour are going nowhere and stand for nothing.

Zubeneschamali

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

My local council area had a SF councillor, by all means they were prominent and active in the community etc. and usually people vote for local reasons rather than political reasons and they came near the bottom.

We had an ex-SF councillor who ran as an Independent after quitting the party over bullying. SF ran a new candidate, and Aontú ran one, too.


1st preferences, the 3 between them had 962 votes, which would have given them a seat. But they split it 3 ways, and let a Green candidate in. SF got no seat.

Zubeneschamali

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I doubt Shortall or Catherine Murphy would go back with the Labour Party and I wouldn't blame them. Labour are going nowhere and stand for nothing.

Give it 5 years.


In some of those split/merges in history, they had to wait for someone to die before rejoining.

AndrewJRenko

expectationlost wrote: »

did the council have the staff and resources to deliver housing?

Isn't most of it outsourced to the Approved Housing Bodies these days?

And did they do anything to prioritise staff and resources for housing?

L1011

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I doubt Shortall or Catherine Murphy would go back with the Labour Party and I wouldn't blame them. Labour are going nowhere and stand for nothing.

If they fail to get 2% nationally at a GE - plausible without Donnelly and halo votes he brought in - finances may force it as it did for DL

Fan of Netflix

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We had an ex-SF councillor who ran as an Independent after quitting the party over bullying. SF ran a new candidate, and Aontú ran one, too.


1st preferences, the 3 between them had 962 votes, which would have given them a seat. But they split it 3 ways, and let a Green candidate in. SF got no seat.

Stuff like that happened all over the country. Independent ex Sinn Fein candidates and Aontu candidates split the vote with SF. I believe actually 8 or more SF candidates elected in 2014 were re elected as Indos this time, took the vote with them. If those councillors and Toibin were treated with respect by SF it wouldn't have happened. Buck stops with them.

Fan of Netflix

L1011 wrote: »

If they fail to get 2% nationally at a GE - plausible without Donnelly and halo votes he brought in - finances may force it as it did for DL

I believe Catherine Murphy hates Labour since she quit years ago in some fall out? No doubt if the finances make sense the councillors and Gannon etc would merge.

L1011

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I believe Catherine Murphy hates Labour since she quit years ago in some fall out? No doubt if the finances make sense the councillors and Gannon etc would merge.

Basically. Each side will give different reasons for the fallout and I'd be absolutely certain the answer is somewhere in between. Shortall wouldn't be that much in love with the party either.

Murphy and Shortall are both 65 and will eventually retire; that could be 15 years away though.

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Stuff like that happened all over the country. Independent ex Sinn Fein candidates and Aontu candidates split the vote with SF. I believe actually 8 or more SF candidates elected in 2014 were re elected as Indos this time, took the vote with them. If those councillors and Toibin were treated with respect by SF it wouldn't have happened. Buck stops with them.

Some of those candidates may have failed to be elected with the SF banner instead though.

That said, a more general thing that if the bullying scandal and split hadn't happened its likely the damage would have been a lot lower is definitely the case. Cumulative problems

maccored

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Lol losing half your seats is "quite healthy" ?? Totally absurd stuff.

damn right its healthy. the herd was culled and the voters who were only voting SF because they didnt want (at the time) to vote FF, went back to voting FF. If you cant see how thats healthy, well, thats your own issue im afraid.

maccored

L1011 wrote: »

UK Labour have just expelled their best spin doctor if you're looking for a job...


This election is an absolute disaster for SF. FF have not made the gains to tie up with what you suggest. The protest vote has evaporated instead.

i have a job thanks. FF have gained seats - as have the greens and others. the votes have to go somewhere - they dont evaporate into thin air bar low turnouts. looks like the only people not whinging about SF losing votes are SF

L1011

Quite a lot of votes were clearly shed to ex-SF and Aontu candidates. Trying to claim its all gone to FF is delusional and trying to spin your worst election in a decade and a half as a good thing is even more so.

Danzy

L1011 wrote: »

Quite a lot of votes were clearly shed to ex-SF and Aontu candidates. Trying to claim its all gone to FF is delusional and trying to spin your worst election in a decade and a half as a good thing is even more so.

The only party that had a great election was the Greens, FG had a good election, FF will be disappointed, no Mep in MNW and the % they got there is a big story for them, a few more cllrs and 26% of the vote will not make up for that, 26% remains a long way down from 15 years ago. It has been a disaster for SF.

FF look like being locked in as 2nd fiddle to FG at a State level, SF look like they are at risk of becoming a glorified Labour party.

ilkhanid

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

"Politics is show business for ugly people" :pac::pac:

I presume Kate O'Connell would be the exception to that.

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Just missing a photo of Team Lowry.

Gombeen politics making a roaring come back in Ireland. It's truly depressing.

Not to mention the re-election of Hugh McElveny as an independent (for the tenth time!)

James Brown

Interested Observer wrote: »

You've said this eating out of bins thing a few times, what the hell are you talking about?

A FG personal driver was posted to the board of Irish Water and in reference to the last FF government stated:

Mr Quinlan added: “You tell me one party out there who doesn’t look after their own. I don’t see anything wrong with it. It’s politics.” He asked why there isn’t more of a focus on the economy. “We were all nearly eating out of bins three years ago.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-director-hired-as-personal-driver-by-minister-1.1945863

So it's important to cite were appropriate when discussing the buddy buddy relationship both parties currently enjoy.

Interested Observer wrote: »

Do you really think FF, the party who have been the largest in the State for its entire history up to the 2011 election, need help with their profile? Bizarre stuff.

This makes no sense. Do you think party support is static or it rises and falls? And if your party was at the helm when the country went through a fiscal meltdown, you wouldn't benefit from the government of the day bringing you into a power sharing partnership of sorts? This wouldn't give a much needed raise to your profile? To be clear, getting back to the original comment about SF assisting FF, it's more on FG IMO. SF weren't in government and SF didn't bring FF from the cheap seats to the power table.

Interested Observer wrote: »

Otherwise, It has been wonderful to see SF and PBP decimated in the locals.

Ah, rant understood.
Just to add, SF lost a lot of support and that's tough for SF. Trying to put the rise in popularity of FF on them is baloney. FG brought FF back from the dead, certainly put them back in the spotlight. They went from party who ruined the country to 'opposition' party with the governments ear.

James Brown

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I fully expect the SDP to merge with Labour in five years or so. Looking at the history:

In 1944, the National Labour Party split from Labour, and in 1950 they merged again.

In 1977, the Socialist Labour Party split off and died.

In the late 80s, Labour expelled various people (like Clare Daly), and Joe Higgins went off to form the Socialist Party.

In 1990, the Democratic Socialist party of Jim Kemmy merged with Labour (Kemmy quit Labour back in 1972). In 1992 they merged with the Independent Socialist Party of Declan Bree (who later quit in 2007).

In 1999 they merged with Democratic Left (a split from the Workers party, itself originally official Sinn Féin).

And know we have the SDP - Shortall is ex-Labour, and Murphy was in the Workers Party, Democratic Left and Labour.

They are not really new, it is just the same people on the left changing labels and feuding with each other.

Labour needs a rebuild from the top down. The grassroots are used as pawns. It's too top lead for a supposed socialist leaning party. You've career politicians coming out of university and joining HQ to tell people in working class areas what's going to happen next with their party and who they'll be parachuting in to run in their area. That needs to stop.

Danzy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

tell people in working class areas what's going to happen next with their party and who they'll be parachuting in to run in their area.

Along the same line that delivered SF an electoral battering.

Fan of Netflix

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Labour needs a rebuild from the top down. The grassroots are used as pawns. It's too top lead for a supposed socialist leaning party. You've career politicians coming out of university and joining HQ to tell people in working class areas what's going to happen next with their party and who they'll be parachuting in to run in their area. That needs to stop.

Happens in Sinn Fein too

Fan of Netflix

Labour aren't really a socialist or working class party anyway. I doubt know any working class people who vote for them. Their candidates or members aren't really either. It's more of middle class liberal party.

Topgear on Dave

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Labour needs a rebuild from the top down. The grassroots are used as pawns. It's too top lead for a supposed socialist leaning party. You've career politicians coming out of university and joining HQ to tell people in working class areas what's going to happen next with their party and who they'll be parachuting in to run in their area. That needs to stop.

This post hilarious. Ya need to look inward Matt. :pac: :pac:

James Brown

Danzy wrote: »

Along the same line that delivered SF an electoral battering.

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Happens in Sinn Fein too

I only know about Labour in that regard, but any party would be foolish not to work from the bottom up IMO.

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Labour aren't really a socialist or working class party anyway. I doubt know any working class people who vote for them. Their candidates or members aren't really either. It's more of middle class liberal party.

That's the reason for the decline. They populate their HQ with middle class people dictating to working class neighbourhoods. They need own who they are or make some serious changes.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

This post hilarious. Ya need to look inward Matt. :pac: :pac:

What are you on about?

Danzy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I only know about Labour in that regard, but any party would be foolish not to work from the bottom up IMO.



That's the reason for the decline. They populate their HQ with middle class people dictating to working class neighbourhoods. They need own who they are or make some serious changes.



?

Bottom up is the only way.

I believe that many in neither Labour or SF , especially in Head office or Reps like what the Working Class think on many things, it doesn't fit what they'll view as a working class analysis.

James Brown

Danzy wrote: »

Bottom up is the only way.

I believe that many in neither Labour or SF , especially in Head office or Reps like what the Working Class think on many things, it doesn't fit what they'll view as a working class analysis.

I know a FG TD who had strong views on a number of issues but flip flopped when differing word came down from HQ. It lost her some support locally.
I think it would be good for everyone if people and parties stuck to what they sell themselves as, be it socialist or fiscally conservative. At least we'll know what we're getting.

Danzy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I know a FG TD who had strong views on a number of issues but flip flopped when differing word came down from HQ. It lost her some support locally.
I think it would be good for everyone if people and parties stuck to what they sell themselves as, be it socialist or fiscally conservative. At least we'll know what we're getting.

"We must move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!"

Danzy

Flipflopping too much always bites parties.

Topgear on Dave

Matt Barrett wrote: »

What are you on about?

Didnt SF lose near 40 elected reps (between elections) with a lot of allegations of bullying?

They've also had only 2 leaders in near 40 years. (M-L being crowned as Gerrys choice for leader)

Peadad Toibin left with others and formed Aontu because there doesn't seem to have been room for their views.


It doesn't particularly sound like a party being run from the bottom up.

Topgear on Dave

Danzy wrote: »

Flipflopping too much always bites parties.

True, but purity wont get ya too far either. Hard to strike the balance.

James Brown

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Didnt SF lose near 40 elected reps (between elections) with a lot of allegations of bullying?

They've also had only 2 leaders in near 40 years. (M-L being crowned as Gerrys choice for leader)

Peadad Toibin left with others and formed Aontu because there doesn't seem to have been room for their views.


It doesn't particularly sound like a party being run from the bottom up.

All very interesting. Don't see the relevance regarding my post and your amusement. Although relatable, I was responding to a comment on Labour. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.