Pro14 QF: Munster vs Benetton, Sat 4th May 3pm

Jump_In_Jack

So anyway, Munster V Benetton thread,
Benetton were very good for the last few months,
Their back 3 are better than the Munster back 3, even with Earls there would be the same, and they have a very quick tempo to move the ball off the back of their rucks.
With Keatley joining next season they would have better backup to Tommy Allen, he would have scored that drop attempt from 20m out.
Hopefully next season they up it another notch and qualify above 3rd in a conference, would be good to see an Italian side kick on.

mystic86

This thread is toxic. It shouldn't have been a penalty. What should Munster have done, refused it?

Hard luck Benetton, the better team on the day lost.

We really need to step it up for the next game against Leinster now, obviously, but we have big issues. We need to learn some attacking plays, we are forever running into tacklers. Surely they should be aiming to run into the space, not the tackler. No little clever dummy runs or anything going on to the level required. Van Graan needs to ring the changes in the coaching team.

Fair play to you JJ, great kick, and under pressure.

antietam1

troyzer wrote: »

To be fair, there were Munster fans the entire time arguing that we were wrong about Munster needing to cut the fat.

The issue is that Munster's first reaction always seems to be to import a journeyman. This is fundamentally the problem.

It means they don't have the budget/NIQ slot to sign game changers like Lowe or Coetzee and it means they don't have enough minutes available to develop the academy guys.

Ciáran Frawley (a 2nd year academy halfback) got nearly 600 minutes this year.

Jack Stafford for Munster (also a 2nd year academy halfback) didn't make a single appearance. Why are Munster wasting money and NIQ slots on a player like Mathewson who will be gone soon when they have academy guys who are starving for minutes? The only answer is that Mathewson is the better answer right now and helps Munster to win and stay in the game. But as I said earlier, the win now attitude isn't working. They constantly drop off at the highest level.

Jack Dunne and Thomas Ahern are both year 1 locks. I don't think Ahern has made a single appearance? Jack Dunne has the best part of 200 minutes. It isn't much, but it's vital in his development.

There is a reason why the Leinster academy produce so many players. Part of that is obviously the bigger catchment area, another part is that it's just the best setup probably in the world but the most important part is that Cullen backs his guys. He gives the kids lots of minutes and by not having to import the squad players, he has more money and NIQ slots for the big hitters like Lowe and also for guys like Tomane who will gel the kids together and keep the standards up.

It's a winning formula which Munster can't replicate exactly but they can and should learn a lot from. Instead they gave Mathewson, Hanrahan and Bleyendaal extensions.

A bigger catchment area? not as simple as that.
When Munster where the only game in town every village and town in Kildare Offaly etc had a Munster Jersey/ flag up on the wall.
These towns and villages have not switched to Leinster, Leinster still seen as Dublin/Jackeen whatever.
Watched the Lein v Ulster q final in the midlands and all the locals supported Ulster.
Have watched matches in Offaly where a foreign team was cheered v Leinster.

sydthebeat

antietam1 wrote: »

A bigger catchment area? not as simple as that.
When Munster where the only game in town every village and town in Kildare Offaly etc had a Munster Jersey/ flag up on the wall.
These towns and villages have not switched to Leinster, Leinster still seen as Dublin/Jackeen whatever.
Watched the Lein v Ulster q final in the midlands and all the locals supported Ulster.
Have watched matches in Offaly where a foreign team was cheered v Leinster.

As a offaly man living in laois I would refute a lot of this.

Yes you absolutely have your lunster fans out there, as you also have munster people living in leinster.... But in my experience there is still a significant majority of leinster fans throughout the 12 counties, especially in the under 35 age bracket.

Those lunster fans tend to be bigger GAA heads who just hate anything dublinesque.

The Lost Sheep

antietam1 wrote: »

A bigger catchment area? not as simple as that.
When Munster where the only game in town every village and town in Kildare Offaly etc had a Munster Jersey/ flag up on the wall.
These towns and villages have not switched to Leinster, Leinster still seen as Dublin/Jackeen whatever.
Watched the Lein v Ulster q final in the midlands and all the locals supported Ulster.
Have watched matches in Offaly where a foreign team was cheered v Leinster.

No it isnt.
Leinster's work with development officers going to schools, clubs successes etc etc these areas very much dont see Leinster side as Dublin and support sides playing against Leinster

The Rape of Lucretia

troyzer wrote: »

There is a reason why the Leinster academy produce so many players. Part of that is obviously the bigger catchment area, another part is that it's just the best setup probably in the world.

Bigger catchment area is far from the full story, and isnt what makes the difference. The Sandymount-Dalkey-Rathmines triangle is small enough. The level of schools coaching is the difference. Leinster academy is run well, but the conveyor belt of really high level coached players being delivered to it gives it the right raw material. Munster will always unearth a few talents, but its schools standard is just not even in the same galaxy as the top Leinster ones. Leinster therefore starts off a clear league ahead due to this, no matter what a coach does, the academy standard, or how well it chooses a few choice foreigners to fill crucial gaps.

The Lost Sheep

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Bigger catchment area is far from the full story, and isnt what makes the difference. The Sandymount-Dalkey-Rathmines triangle is small enough. The level of schools coaching is the difference. Leinster academy is run well, but the conveyor belt of really high level coached players being delivered to it gives it the right raw material. Munster will always unearth a few talents, but its schools standard is just not even in the same galaxy as the top Leinster ones. Leinster therefore starts off a clear league ahead due to this, no matter what a coach does, the academy standard, or how well it chooses a few choice foreigners to fill crucial gaps.

Its not simply schools but what happens in the clubs and what Leinster are doing beyond the few schools. Munster will never compete with Leinster based on schools model and cant even look to replicate that model so have to be far cleverer but they dont appear to be doing enough to do that

jm08

troyzer wrote: »

To be fair, there were Munster fans the entire time arguing that we were wrong about Munster needing to cut the fat.

The issue is that Munster's first reaction always seems to be to import a journeyman. This is fundamentally the problem.

It means they don't have the budget/NIQ slot to sign game changers like Lowe or Coetzee and it means they don't have enough minutes available to develop the academy guys.

Cin Frawley (a 2nd year academy halfback) got nearly 600 minutes this year.

Jack Stafford for Munster (also a 2nd year academy halfback) didn't make a single appearance. Why are Munster wasting money and NIQ slots on a player like Mathewson who will be gone soon when they have academy guys who are starving for minutes? The only answer is that Mathewson is the better answer right now and helps Munster to win and stay in the game. But as I said earlier, the win now attitude isn't working. They constantly drop off at the highest level.

Mathewson was brought in for cover for Conor Murray. It wouldn't do anything for Joey Carbery's development if he was playing with academy scrumhalves who had even less experience playing 10 than he had. Joey Carbery has got to play about 3 times this season with Conor Murray because of both their injuries.

There is a reason why the Leinster academy produce so many players. Part of that is obviously the bigger catchment area, another part is that it's just the best setup probably in the world but the most important part is that Cullen backs his guys. He gives the kids lots of minutes and by not having to import the squad players, he has more money and NIQ slots for the big hitters like Lowe and also for guys like Tomane who will gel the kids together and keep the standards up.

The big difference in the set-up is that through the private schools are run as academies and if a kid in Leinster shows signs of being good they end up going to private schools (i.e., Joey Carbery in Blackrock).



Munster or Connacht doesn't have the number of private schools to facilitate the early development work that the schools in Dublin/Clongowes can. Thats why in Munster, development is usually later.

It's a winning formula which Munster can't replicate exactly but they can and should learn a lot from. Instead they gave Mathewson, Hanrahan and Bleyendaal extensions.

Fairly impossible for Munster to replicate the Leinster setup - it doesn't have the schools to do so and also, gaelic games are very competitive and attracted in Munster. For example, Limerick county (with a population of less than 200,000) won the All-Ireland hurling last year. Eleven of the Limerick panel went to the same school as Paul O'Connell. I can't see Blackrock/Michael's supplying 11 players to the Dubs and also supplying a similar amount to Leinster. Can you?

The Lost Sheep

jm08 wrote: »

Mathewson was brought in for cover for Conor Murray. It wouldn't do anything for Joey Carbery's development if he was playing with academy scrumhalves who had even less experience playing 10 than he had. Joey Carbery has got to play about 3 times this season with Conor Murray because of both their injuries.

Munster have considerable number of senior scrumhalves it wasnt as if Munster had Murray and then academy scrumhalves. There was Hart, Williams and several others

The big difference in the set-up is that through the private schools are run as academies and if a kid in Leinster shows signs of being good they end up going to private schools (i.e., Joey Carbery in Blackrock).

Munster or Connacht doesn't have the number of private schools to facilitate the early development work that the schools in Dublin/Clongowes can. Thats why in Munster, development is usually later.

Development isnt usually later because of that but Munster are slower at putting through players as well and anyway Munster cant and shouldnt be trying to replicate Leinster and the schools. Leinster do far more with their youths rugby set up than Munster. Not enough done with the clubs youths rugby competitions. 20s rugby in the province. Not enough is done beyond the few senior clubs.
And having kids move to the rugby schools isnt the answer. There isnt enough of them in Munster anyway

Fairly impossible for Munser to replicate the Leinster setup - it doesn't have the schools to do so and also, gaelic games are very competitive and attracted in Munster. For example, Limerick county (with a population of less than 200,000) won the All-Ireland hurling last year. Eleven of the Limerick panel went to the same school as Paul O'Connell. I can't see Blackrock/Michael's supplying 11 players to the Dubs and also supplying a similar amount to Leinster. Can you?

You talk as if gaelic games arent competitive and attractive elsewhere which is nonsense

Shefwedfan

Mathewson kept to train in Carberry

That’s the best one yet

thomond2006

jm08

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Munster have considerable number of senior scrumhalves it wasnt as if Munster had Murray and then academy scrumhalves. There was Hart, Williams and several others

Senior in age maybe. Neither Williams or Hart are of the required standard.

Development isnt usually later because of that but Munster are slower at putting through players as well and anyway Munster cant and shouldnt be trying to replicate Leinster and the schools. Leinster do far more with their youths rugby set up than Munster. Not enough done with the clubs youths rugby competitions. 20s rugby in the province. Not enough is done beyond the few senior clubs.

Of course it makes a difference in physical development for a start. Name the Leinster players who didn't go through the private school system in Leinster who made their debuts for Leinster seniors under the age of 20/21?

And having kids move to the rugby schools isnt the answer. There isnt enough of them in Munster anyway

I wasn't suggesting that. What I would suggest is that Munster players are going to develop a bit later than their Leinster counterparts.

You talk as if gaelic games arent competitive and attractive elsewhere which is nonsense

I didn't claim that (though I think Munster hurling is particularly competitive because most counties are competitive and so there is a good chance of winning something). Dublin and Kilkenny (+ Galway hurling) are the only competitive GAA teams in Leinster. I see where Joe Canning's nephew (who is highly rated as a hurler) and who went to school in Roscrea and played Leinster Senior Cup is playing rugby down in Australia at the minute. It will be interesting to see what he does when he comes back.

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Mathewson kept to train in Carberry

That’s the best one yet

No, he was brought in because Murray had his neck injury and they didn't know how long he would be out for.



Just for the record, the reasoning in Ulster to keep Pienaar was to help Paddy Jackson develop.

Squatter

jm08 wrote: »

Just for the record, the reasoning in Ulster to keep Pienaar was to help Paddy Jackson to develop.

On or off the pitch?

jm08

Squatter wrote: »

On or off the pitch?

:rolleyes: On the pitch as his half-back partner.


(Mind you, once Pienaar left, things off the pitch didn't go so well for PJ)!

Dave_The_Sheep

antietam1 wrote: »

A bigger catchment area? not as simple as that.
When Munster where the only game in town every village and town in Kildare Offaly etc had a Munster Jersey/ flag up on the wall.
These towns and villages have not switched to Leinster, Leinster still seen as Dublin/Jackeen whatever.
Watched the Lein v Ulster q final in the midlands and all the locals supported Ulster.
Have watched matches in Offaly where a foreign team was cheered v Leinster.

That's a load of bollocks, there's a minute degree of truth in it, particularly in the southern Leinster counties, but come off it. Kildare, Offaly, etc. would have people in them who would have supported Munster when they were in the HC and doing well, as I'd still support them in the HC, but not when they were playing Leinster. The two aren't mutually exclusive. There were a minority of Lunsters, for sure. Syds points are right.

Tomtom364

Shefwedfan wrote: »

4-8 in the space a few mins, doris the tea lady hanging up her boots?


Maybe read my post and the post I replied to.

I did in fact read your posts. And those that you replied to.
You further proved my point here about you not having a clue with your HALARIOUS joke about the tea lady because you were unaware of the number of outgoing players for Munster.

So thanks for that perfect proof of my point.

antietam1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No it isnt.
Leinster's work with development officers going to schools, clubs successes etc etc these areas very much dont see Leinster side as Dublin and support sides playing against Leinster

Yes it is.

The Lost Sheep

jm08 wrote: »

Senior in age maybe. Neither Williams or Hart are of the required standard.

Moving goal posts considerably there JM

Of course it makes a difference in physical development for a start. Name the Leinster players who didn't go through the private school system in Leinster who made their debuts for Leinster seniors under the age of 20/21

Conor O Brien, Ciaran Frawley, Adam Byrne are just a few who have

I didn't claim that (though I think Munster hurling is particularly competitive because most counties are competitive and so there is a good chance of winning something). Dublin and Kilkenny (+ Galway hurling) are the only competitive GAA teams in Leinster. I see where Joe Canning's nephew (who is highly rated as a hurler) and who went to school in Roscrea and played Leinster Senior Cup is playing rugby down in Australia at the minute. It will be interesting to see what he does when he comes back.

Yeah Canning played schools cup and i think he'll be back playing hurling when/if he does come back. You are ignoring the interest in gaelic even without the top level success of counties and thats as much due to the high quality within the dublin set up right now.

Shefwedfan

Tomtom364 wrote: »

I did in fact read your posts. And those that you replied to.
You further proved my point here about you not having a clue with your HALARIOUS joke about the tea lady because you were unaware of the number of outgoing players for Munster.

So thanks for that perfect proof of my point.

Maybe if you do want to use capitals at least spell the word right

Also I never said the player didn’t want to leave, I said the province didn’t want them to leave

As I said, Bleyendaal is a waste of money, Munster have better option in Carberry, JJ, Johnson and young u20 lad....

The Lost Sheep

antietam1 wrote: »

Yes it is.

Not from my experience or many others. Work Leinster have done with development officers, in schools. What clubs have done. Continued improvement in standards, towns cup popularity etc etc you are well off with those remarks

antietam1

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

That's a load of bollocks, there's a minute degree of truth in it, particularly in the southern Leinster counties, but come off it. Kildare, Offaly, etc. would have people in them who would have supported Munster when they were in the HC and doing well, as I'd still support them in the HC, but not when they were playing Leinster. The two aren't mutually exclusive. There were a minority of Lunsters, for sure. Syds points are right.

You haven't a clue, still work to be done.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Maybe if you do want to use capitals at least spell the word right

Also I never said the player didn’t want to leave, I said the province didn’t want them to leave

As I said, Bleyendaal is a waste of money, Munster have better option in Carberry, JJ, Johnson and young u20 lad....

That's unfortunate. It's Johnston.

Dave_The_Sheep

antietam1 wrote: »

You haven't a clue, still work to be done.

Some well presented discussion there, valid arguments made in a well articulated way. I particularly like the way you refuted what I said with counter points.

The list grows longer.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

That's unfortunate. It's Johnston.

Not really

antietam1

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Some well presented discussion there, valid arguments made in a well articulated way. I particularly like the way you refuted what I said with counter points.

The list grows longer.

Refute what, it's subjective because it's my experience and as recent as QF v Ulster.
Your experience of watching matches in pubs may be different, maybe you don't spend as much time travelling around the country as I do.

Squatter

Good to see Nigel enjoying himself at the Pro 14 awards in Dublin on Saturday night. Not a Treviso player in sight!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D51DMg3XoAAnNZW.jpg:large


Also nice to see Kieran Crowley getting the Coach of the Season award:

https://twitter.com/PRO14Official/status/1125124843593183238

Henry Ford III

Squatter wrote:

Good to see Nigel enjoying himself at the Pro 14 awards in Dublin on Saturday night. Not a Treviso player in sight!

They flew home on Saturday