Pro14 QF: Munster vs Benetton, Sat 4th May 3pm

The Rape of Lucretia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Munster can't be that bad again. Were well beaten and two really poor calls by Owens manufactured the difference between the teams.

I think thats very harsh on Treviso. The idea that they were barely better than a Munster worst performance to be within distance of losing out to a poor reffing decision, doesnt really give them their deserved credit.

Akrasia

Interested Observer wrote: »

Noted for posterity, we have an unironic use of communions as a reason for the woeful attendance.

Woeful? Still better than any connacht home game ever....

Or 99% of welsh or Scottish attendances

Tim Robbins

troyzer wrote: »

The Munster of today can't keep comparing and desperately trying to get back there. If it takes a few years to start all over again and maybe take a few group stage crash outs, then maybe that's what it takes.

There was a few super players in the U20s this year that won the slam that were all from Munster. I think give a few of these lads 1 - 2 years and they'll be super players.

The idea that the Munster of old were all local lads is a bit of a myth. There were plenty like Mike Mullins, Shaune Payne, Rob Henderson, Holland and as well as the obvious imports like Williams etc Nothing wrong with that. I think though if you do too much of that, you lose the Munster identity and a bit and the connection with the crowd. So I'd be thinking old off on the important and develop those lads that were super at U20.

Shefwedfan

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Not good enough for what though? They got to a P14 playoff, and an EC semi. Expectations need to be realistic. With a limited playing population, a good hard core, but fundamentally smallish support, a low level of output from the schools level to feed an academy, and limited funds, I think they are doing pretty well. Quite well even. Expectations need to be realistic.

They have the biggest squad in Ireland. Have the biggest(i think) purpose builtrugby stadium in Europe? I think that was mentioned before on podcasts

They have pick of players from other provinces. They have taken players from Connacht/Ulster/Leinster when those provinces did not want the player to leave. Sometimes demanded by the IRFU to let the player move

They have huge investment from the IRFU.

Munster has been run badly for years. Van Grann doesn't look to be changing anything. Lot's of players signed and kept on who are just not up to the standard. What is the point in keeping player like Bleyendaal? they are not good enough. They are just wasting money. Let 3-4 of those players go and use the wages to sign a better quality of player.

They will have 5 9's at the start of next season, they will pay Matheson all of the close season now because they have resigned him for a few games in the Pro 14 while Murray is away, while having Nick McCarthy sitting on bench. PLaying against teams who will be missing a huge quantity of their squads. Do they really need him?

Players like Addison/Fardy/Lowe are around and do not require huge wages. None of the above are an issue for Munster.

Del.Monte

Akrasia wrote: »

Who else would you be a fan of?

Leinster, Connacht, Exeter, Crusaders but all to a lesser extent than Munster.

troyzer

Tim Robbins wrote: »

There was a few super players in the U20s this year that won the slam that were all from Munster. I think give a few of these lads 1 - 2 years and they'll be super players.

The idea that the Munster of old were all local lads is a bit of a myth. There were plenty like Mike Mullins, Shaune Payne, Rob Henderson, Holland and as well as the obvious imports like Williams etc Nothing wrong with that. I think though if you do too much of that, you lose the Munster identity and a bit and the connection with the crowd. So I'd be thinking old off on the important and develop those lads that were super at U20.

This is my point. Why would Munster sign Mathewson when someone like Craig Casey can get a fistful of valuable games during the world cup against weakened opposition? That's what you need to build for the future.

Signing Mathewson is the definition of a short term solution at the expense of the academy guys who should be getting way more gametime to develop.

Tim Robbins

troyzer wrote: »

This is my point. Why would Munster sign Mathewson when someone like Craig Casey can get a fistful of valuable games during the world cup against weakened opposition? That's what you need to build for the future.

Signing Mathewson is the definition of a short term solution at the expense of the academy guys who should be getting way more gametime to develop.

Spot on.

Downlinz

troyzer wrote: »

The reality is that they've been over performing for a decade

That's quite a "unique" assessment of a team performing at a consistent level for a decade to suggest all of it, every single time was an overperformance rather than it just being their level. :rolleyes:

Jump_In_Jack

A lot of MOLF’s pontificating about Munster as usual spoiling the thread for Munster fans.

Interested Observer

I think we're going to need another one of these ****ing moronic acronyms, maybe LFOMF, or Leinster Fan Obsessed Munster Fan.

The Specialist

Interested Observer wrote: »

I think we're going to need another one of these ****ing moronic acronyms, maybe LFOMF, or Leinster Fan Obsessed Munster Fan.

Or LBOWM - lady boys obsessed with Munster?

Jump_In_Jack

Interested Observer wrote: »

I think we're going to need another one of these ****ing moronic acronyms, maybe LFOMF, or Leinster Fan Obsessed Munster Fan.

More like Leinster Fan Allergic Munster Fan

troyzer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

A lot of MOLF’s pontificating about Munster as usual spoiling the thread for Munster fans.

This isn't the Munster thread?

I've been posting my thoughts on Connacht going forward as well on their thread. I'm not obsessed with Munster but it's important that they do well for Irish rugby. And they've made several strategic decisions towards the end of the season that, in my opinion, is a repeat of the mistakes that have put Munster in this situation in the first place.

Jump_In_Jack

troyzer wrote: »

This isn't the Munster thread?

I've been posting my thoughts on Connacht going forward as well on their thread. I'm not obsessed with Munster but it's important that they do well for Irish rugby. And they've made several strategic decisions towards the end of the season that, in my opinion, is a repeat of the mistakes that have put Munster in this situation in the first place.

Maybe save it for after the season is over, your advice might come off a bit hollow if Saracens hammer Leinster and then Munster go on to win the Pro14.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

This isn't the Munster thread?

I've been posting my thoughts on Connacht going forward as well on their thread. I'm not obsessed with Munster but it's important that they do well for Irish rugby. And they've made several strategic decisions towards the end of the season that, in my opinion, is a repeat of the mistakes that have put Munster in this situation in the first place.

Once you post any sense about Munster the next few posts normally start off with calling you a MOLF or something along those lines

Same on this thread it seems

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Maybe save it for after the season is over, your advice might come off a bit hollow if Saracens hammer Leinster and then Munster go on to win the Pro14.

If that happens, which it could, still won’t change the issues Munster have....

Even if they beat Leinster, you really think Munster can beat Glasgow? In Scotland?

fonecrusher1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Let 3-4 of those players go and use the wages to sign a better quality of player.

Munster announced recently they are offloading 4 players. Are you a Leinster fan yourself?

shootermacg

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If that happens, which it could, still won’t change the issues Munster have....

Even if they beat Leinster, you really think Munster can beat Glasgow? In Scotland?

Always the same two.... We as Munster fans follow Munster. We support Munster, we do not in any way dictate the decisions on players, coaching or pretty much anything else.

It's nothing short of conceit and hubris to think your sage advice will find its way, directly through the fans to JVG or anyone else that matters.

So knowing this, as anyone with a basic knowledge of the way things work, surely would, why would you be posting in a trivial public forum your thoughts on fixing the situation?

Shefwedfan

shootermacg wrote: »

Always the same two.... We as Munster fans follow Munster. We support Munster, we do not in any way dictate the decisions on players, coaching or pretty much anything else.

It's nothing short of conceit and hubris to think your sage advice will find its way, directly through the fans to JVG or anyone else that matters.

So knowing this, as anyone with a basic knowledge of the way things work, surely would, why would you be posting in a trivial public forum your thoughts on fixing the situation?

I think you will find it more than “ always the same two”.....

P.S. it’s a discussion forum....kind of the point of it to discuss topics....different opinions and all that, I’m sure they have an FAQ for what boards is

Tomtom364

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Once you post any sense about Munster the next few posts normally start off with calling you a MOLF or something along those lines

Same on this thread it seems

Perhaps if you a bit more clued in people would take you more seriously.
Munster have 8 players outgoing and 1 player incoming for the next season.
They have also talked about bringing in an experienced attack coach. No talk of any more player signings.

Yea Munster could have released Tyler and JJ as well, but do you know for a fact that they didn't bother going to the market and see who they could get in their place? Maybe noone better was available in budget?


Also, comments like "have the pick of players from Connacht/Ulster/Leinster even when the player didn't want to move" are just incendiary nonsense.

maybe could have the argument for 1 player, Carbery, but who else would be in the category to say that's it's such a blatant bias for Munster in the irfu as seems to be suggested?

leakyboots

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If that happens, which it could, still won’t change the issues Munster have....

Even if they beat Leinster, you really think Munster can beat Glasgow? In Scotland?

Hang on, didn't we beat them in something like four or five times in the one season not so long ago? With largely the same squad?

leakyboots

Anyhoo, I think the Leinster game is a big one for us (good man Captain Obvious!). Win that and regardless of the result in a final we've had quite a good season to build on for JvG's first full one with us.

I expect at least a performance and a close result.

Lose with a whimper and while yeah we've reached two semi-finals again have we progressed? First proper season and all that but that would really put pressure on for next season for JvG. Our new attack coach would want to hit the ground running - I'd prefer us not to sign anyone and spend the available budget on the best out there and let Felix copy his notes.

This place is so reactionary sometimes. It will go into absolute meltdown if Leinster lose the HEC final and then we win. I don't think Munster are as bad as people were making out since the loss to Sarries - I'm very curious as to how Leinster do against them, that'll be my yardstick of where we are at - and I don't think Leinster will suddenly be as bad as people will start making out if the above happens.

Shefwedfan

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Perhaps if you a bit more clued in people would take you more seriously.
Munster have 8 players outgoing and 1 player incoming for the next season.
They have also talked about bringing in an experienced attack coach. No talk of any more player signings.

Yea Munster could have released Tyler and JJ as well, but do you know for a fact that they didn't bother going to the market and see who they could get in their place? Maybe noone better was available in budget?


Also, comments like "have the pick of players from Connacht/Ulster/Leinster even when the player didn't want to move" are just incendiary nonsense.

maybe could have the argument for 1 player, Carbery, but who else would be in the category to say that's it's such a blatant bias for Munster in the irfu as seems to be suggested?

4-8 in the space a few mins, doris the tea lady hanging up her boots?


Maybe read my post and the post I replied to.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

4-8 in the space a few mins, doris the tea lady hanging up her boots?


Maybe read my post and the post I replied to.

What you've been calling for all season, Munster are doing. Yet it's still not good enough. Lifted from Thomond's post:

2019/20 Movements:
IN: Nick McCarthy (SH, Leinster)
OUT: Mike Sherry (HK, Gloucester/TBC), Dave O'Callaghan (FL, Biarritz), Duncan Williams (SH, TBC), James Hart (SH, Biarritz), Ian Keatley (FH, Benetton), Matt More (CT, South Africa), Jaco Taute (CT, Leicester Tigers), James McCarthy (WG, Wales/TBC), Ronan O'Mahony (WG, Retired), Stephen Fitzgerald (WG, Connacht)

How do you think comments like the above make you come across??

Erik Shun

aloooof wrote: »

What you've been calling for all season, Munster are doing. Yet it's still not good enough. Lifted from Thomond's post:

2019/20 Movements:
IN: Nick McCarthy (SH, Leinster)
OUT: Mike Sherry (HK, Gloucester/TBC), Dave O'Callaghan (FL, Biarritz), Duncan Williams (SH, TBC), James Hart (SH, Biarritz), Ian Keatley (FH, Benetton), Matt More (CT, South Africa), Jaco Taute (CT, Leicester Tigers), James McCarthy (WG, Wales/TBC), Ronan O'Mahony (WG, Retired), Stephen Fitzgerald (WG, Connacht)

How do you think comments like the above make you come across??

I think both Troyzer and Shef wed are best left to their own devices imo

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

What you've been calling for all season, Munster are doing. Lifted from Thomond's post:

2019/20 Movements:
IN: Nick McCarthy (SH, Leinster)
OUT: Mike Sherry (HK, Gloucester/TBC), Ian Keatley (FH, Benetton), Matt More (CT, South Africa), Jaco Taute (CT, Leicester Tigers), Ronan O'Mahony (WG, Retired), Stephen Fitzgerald (FB, Connacht)

How do you think comments like the above make you come across??

To be fair, there were Munster fans the entire time arguing that we were wrong about Munster needing to cut the fat.

The issue is that Munster's first reaction always seems to be to import a journeyman. This is fundamentally the problem.

It means they don't have the budget/NIQ slot to sign game changers like Lowe or Coetzee and it means they don't have enough minutes available to develop the academy guys.

Ciáran Frawley (a 2nd year academy halfback) got nearly 600 minutes this year.

Jack Stafford for Munster (also a 2nd year academy halfback) didn't make a single appearance. Why are Munster wasting money and NIQ slots on a player like Mathewson who will be gone soon when they have academy guys who are starving for minutes? The only answer is that Mathewson is the better answer right now and helps Munster to win and stay in the game. But as I said earlier, the win now attitude isn't working. They constantly drop off at the highest level.

Jack Dunne and Thomas Ahern are both year 1 locks. I don't think Ahern has made a single appearance? Jack Dunne has the best part of 200 minutes. It isn't much, but it's vital in his development.

There is a reason why the Leinster academy produce so many players. Part of that is obviously the bigger catchment area, another part is that it's just the best setup probably in the world but the most important part is that Cullen backs his guys. He gives the kids lots of minutes and by not having to import the squad players, he has more money and NIQ slots for the big hitters like Lowe and also for guys like Tomane who will gel the kids together and keep the standards up.

It's a winning formula which Munster can't replicate exactly but they can and should learn a lot from. Instead they gave Mathewson, Hanrahan and Bleyendaal extensions.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

What you've been calling for all season, Munster are doing. Yet it's still not good enough. Lifted from Thomond's post:

2019/20 Movements:
IN: Nick McCarthy (SH, Leinster)
OUT: Mike Sherry (HK, Gloucester/TBC), Dave O'Callaghan (FL, Biarritz), Duncan Williams (SH, TBC), James Hart (SH, Biarritz), Ian Keatley (FH, Benetton), Matt More (CT, South Africa), Jaco Taute (CT, Leicester Tigers), James McCarthy (WG, Wales/TBC), Ronan O'Mahony (WG, Retired), Stephen Fitzgerald (WG, Connacht)

How do you think comments like the above make you come across??

Doris was a joke, sorry you missed it


Ok so reduced some of the players, why not invest then?


Still don't understand why keeping Bleyendaal, he spends majority of time out with injury and is at best pro 14 level. JJ is a better player and Johnson has the potential from what I have seen to be as well


Also the young lad who player U20 this season, with the huge boot. He is in Munster

Interested Observer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Still don't understand why keeping Bleyendaal, he spends majority of time out with injury and is at best pro 14 level. JJ is a better player and Johnson has the potential from what I have seen to be as well

Not that my opinion matters a whit, I don't think he's anything like a trophy winning 10, but considering he's just started a Euro SF and is starting league knockouts so it's hardly a surprise that the management want to keep him.

Squatter

leakyboots wrote: »

Hang on, didn't we beat them in something like four or five times in the one season not so long ago? With largely the same squad?

That was in the season when Axel Foley's death motivated the squad to achieve some significant performances, although the team ended the season trophyless.

Squatter

thomond2006 wrote: »

So annoyed at Nigel Owens with his anti-Munster agenda, moving that kick back. JJ showed him!

That would be after he had gifted JJ some extra metres, only for the TMO to remind him that, notwithstanding his burning desire to facilitate a Munster win, the Laws of Rugby should still apply!

Good kick by the Castleisland Saint all the same.