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How long before Irish reunification?
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Could you explain to me what an artificially created statelet is? Would that include eg Canada, USA, Belgium, etc, etc?
Where you ignore the will expressed in a democratic election and create a temporary jurisdiction which gives Unionists a massive and dominating majority.
Then you allow them the change the specially imposed voting system and forget that it was supposed to be a temporary arrangement and turn a blind eye as those Unionists turn it into a cesspit of discrimination and oppression.
Then when the lid eventually comes off you blame the minority community and shoot them dead in the streets if they deign to complain.
Pretty classic colonisation, discriminatory and dictatorial behaviour since the dawn of time really.0 -
Lord Fairlord wrote: »Countries without long histories and that are not naturally occurring, i.e. not co-inciding with resident language or ethnic group. Also arbitrariness; the Irish border is a great example of that. Ulster has nine counties, in 1918 Nationalists are in a majority in five, yet, Unionists with only a majority in four counties get a six county statelet.
Belgium is literally an artificially created statelet, created as a buffer zone. Many of the Flemish (who are basically Dutch) have been trying for a while to break away from the Walloons (who are basically French).
Canada has the Quebec and First Nations issues.
America is straight up unusual in being a nation unified really by nothing other than the idea of "American values/liberty".
Interesting. Could you identify a few companies for me as examples of those that are not statelets0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Where you ignore the will expressed in a democratic election and create a temporary jurisdiction which gives Unionists a massive and dominating majority.
Then you allow them the change the specially imposed voting system and forget that it was supposed to be a temporary arrangement and turn a blind eye as those Unionists turn it into a cesspit of discrimination and oppression.
Then when the lid eventually comes off you blame the minority community and shoot them dead in the streets if they deign to complain.
Pretty classic colonisation, discriminatory and dictatorial behaviour since the dawn of time really.
Sure you would agree they are that that makes ROI a statelet?0 -
Sure you would agree they are that that makes ROI a statelet?
A functioning sovereign democratic country is never a statlet and would NEVER require an internationally ratified agreement between two sovereign governments to administer it.
One of those countries, has accepted the premise that the island is a cohesive whole...when it said that 'it is for the people of the island of Ireland to decide it's future, without outside impediment'.
In that statement is the recognition that they are 'outsiders' and that they see Ireland and it's people as one entity.0 -
Sounds just like the local masonic lodge lol
Nice attempt at trolling I will give you that. The GAA while not perfect is an organization that plays such a positive role in Irish cultural social and sporting life and is an integral part of Irish culture that we can tremendously proud of so troll away.0 -
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10-15 yearsNice attempt at trolling I will give you that. The GAA while not perfect is an organization that plays such a positive role in Irish cultural social and sporting life and is an integral part of Irish culture that we can tremendously proud of so troll away.
I enjoy watching Gaelic football but do think the GAA organisation is quite partizan which may put foreign fans off,especially from mainland Britain,but I also realise that their aim is to have a sport purely for Irish people and the expansion of the GAA as a world sporting entity is`nt paramount.0 -
I enjoy watching Gaelic football but do think the GAA organisation is quite partizan which may put foreign fans off,especially from mainland Britain,but I also realise that their aim is to have a sport purely for Irish people and the expansion of the GAA as a world sporting entity is`nt paramount.
I would say that the GAA as an organization is an integral part of our culture and society as much as it is part of our sporting world in Ireland. My experience with many non Irish being introduced to the GAA is one of fascination in such a unique sporting organization and amazement at it still being amateur. So while certainly the GAA is not trying to go out and promote its games in a way that it seeks to expand into countries around the world I would also say my experience with non Irish is a positive admiring one when they are introduced to the games and their cultural importance within Ireland. It is not like they are about to start playing but they are generally very positive and enjoy watching the games in my experience. Purely anecdotal of course but that is my experience.0 -
20-30 yearsI enjoy watching Gaelic football but do think the GAA organisation is quite partizan which may put foreign fans off,especially from mainland Britain,but I also realise that their aim is to have a sport purely for Irish people and the expansion of the GAA as a world sporting entity is`nt paramount.
I'd say you don't know a whole lot about the GAA and how it is expanding.
Some info for you:
South African team at Asian Games (some very fine players)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bSGuEEAVvc
A youth tournament in France
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9H1_gz91FI
2019 Asian Games launch in Croke Park (some footage of various teams from places like Japan, Korea etc).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpuT2S4H9ww
2019 World Games - Waterford (Some statistics on number of players, teams etc. involved).
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=414245532491207
The main reason why soccer is a worldwide sport is because of the British Empire who had ex-pats in most if not all these countries. England didn't try and expand the game to these countries.0 -
I trust, like me, many of you are weary of the constant trading of accusations of ‘you are worse than us’ etc. It may help the egos of those of us doing it but it’s not very enlightening, and indeed is very misleading and pretty nasty.
I suggest we encourage more reality and honesty. Let’s start with, say parading (which seems to be a constant thorn in some here) and apply some sensible parameters . The world is full of mobile phones now with cameras. So those who feel either communities parading is a ‘hatefest’ then there must be loads of material out there. So let’s limit it to the current reality ie the last 12 months (that gives 3000+ parades to chose from) and give us some evidential videos. And tell us if you think it happened in the opposing communities housing area. Let’s stick strictly to parading for 24 hrs - you can have you chance with bonfires, sports, etc in due course.
No one who wants the truth should fear this little 24 hr experiment.
So to summarise -
Parading only
Only in last 12 months
Visual evidence , not stories
Did it happen in the ‘opposing’ community area
Nothing to fear from truth - if I am embarrassed by the results then I will have truly learnt something0 -
No one who wants the truth should fear this little 24 hr experiment.
So to summarise -
Parading only
Only in last 12 months
Visual evidence , not stories
Did it happen in the ‘opposing’ community area
Paramilitary display Dublin City centre parade 2019
https://m.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/article38034412.ece0 -
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Parade with paramilitary flags and trappings, Belfast 2019 (sf president addresses)
https://www.facebook.com/sinnfein/videos/2125189024196771?sfns=mo0 -
Bloody Sunday commemoration 2019. Paramilitary display
https://mobile.twitter.com/leonaoneill1/status/1223995404292886530?lang=en0 -
Strabane 2019. Republican parade includes sf MEP dancing on spot where ira murdered a young Protestant child and then shouts ira slogan from platform
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/britains-days-in-ireland-numbered-hunger-strike-rally-told-38373682.html0 -
It's abundantly evident now what downcow wants to do with his 'earnest questioning'.
I will stick to my point. There is nothing wrong with respectful remembrance and even 'celebration' of very separate identities and histories.
Part of a unification process will have to be about how we do that. If you are going to demand that one community NOT remember then the other has to remove any trappings of their history that are contentious.
I was at the 3 day symposium at which President Higgins spoke and I think there is huge food for thought in what he had to say. It's a 'conversation that needs to be had, new Ireland or not.
Ethical commemoration.
https://www.president.ie/en/media-library/speeches/keynote-address-by-president-michael-d.-higgins-at-the-theatre-of-memory-sy0 -
15-20 yearsI trust, like me, many of you are weary of the constant trading of accusations of ‘you are worse than us’ etc. It may help the egos of those of us doing it but it’s not very enlightening, and indeed is very misleading and pretty nasty.
I suggest we encourage more reality and honesty. Let’s start with, say parading (which seems to be a constant thorn in some here) and apply some sensible parameters . The world is full of mobile phones now with cameras. So those who feel either communities parading is a ‘hatefest’ then there must be loads of material out there. So let’s limit it to the current reality ie the last 12 months (that gives 3000+ parades to chose from) and give us some evidential videos. And tell us if you think it happened in the opposing communities housing area. Let’s stick strictly to parading for 24 hrs - you can have you chance with bonfires, sports, etc in due course.
No one who wants the truth should fear this little 24 hr experiment.
So to summarise -
Parading only
Only in last 12 months
Visual evidence , not stories
Did it happen in the ‘opposing’ community area
Nothing to fear from truth - if I am embarrassed by the results then I will have truly learnt something
'Let's pick this one particular aspect of a known issue, framed around evidence I've already looked up, cherry pick an arbitrary period of time based around my evidence, declare that any other evidence is insufficient and see what the outcome is'
Ah Downcow, I missed you! At least tell me there's a modicum of self awareness of the playing field you've set for your little test?0 -
20-30 yearsMost people who voted remain in Scotland will identify as Scottish over British. The same in England and Wales even tho they dont want to become independent. It seems tho in the North most unionists will only describe themselves as British and not Irish. Will this change in time or are children from untionist backgrounds being brought up to only to identify as only British and not Irish despite being both.
It seems still the DUP and SF want kids being brought up to identify in this binary system.0 -
Ulster Says No. It will never happenAre people suggesting it's ok to sing "**** the pope" or "oo aa up the ra" as long as it's in their own communities?0
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20-30 yearsI trust, like me, many of you are weary of the constant trading of accusations of ‘you are worse than us’ etc. It may help the egos of those of us doing it but it’s not very enlightening, and indeed is very misleading and pretty nasty.
I suggest we encourage more reality and honesty. Let’s start with, say parading (which seems to be a constant thorn in some here) and apply some sensible parameters . The world is full of mobile phones now with cameras. So those who feel either communities parading is a ‘hatefest’ then there must be loads of material out there. So let’s limit it to the current reality ie the last 12 months (that gives 3000+ parades to chose from) and give us some evidential videos. And tell us if you think it happened in the opposing communities housing area. Let’s stick strictly to parading for 24 hrs - you can have you chance with bonfires, sports, etc in due course.
No one who wants the truth should fear this little 24 hr experiment.
So to summarise -
Parading only
Only in last 12 months
Visual evidence , not stories
Did it happen in the ‘opposing’ community area
Nothing to fear from truth - if I am embarrassed by the results then I will have truly learnt something
DC - The sheer volume of parades is the problem. 2863 parades in 2007. Of these, 2270 were loyalist, 144 nationalist, and 449 neither.
5% of parades in NI are nationalist.
Can you explain to me what the attraction of parading is (for both communities) as I can see nothing attractive about them from both a musical or visual point of view. In fact, the most visually attractive parade Gay Pride is frowned upon.0 -
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'Let's pick this one particular aspect of a known issue, framed around evidence I've already looked up, cherry pick an arbitrary period of time based around my evidence, declare that any other evidence is insufficient and see what the outcome is'
Ah Downcow, I missed you! At least tell me there's a modicum of self awareness of the playing field you've set for your little test?
I promise you I did not look up any until immediately after my post. I am trying to get people to face up to reality and fact. I picked parading as it is painted as a loyalist hatefest and I thought a year was a reasonable time to avoid people going away back.
I am very happy you set the parameters. But the silence would suggest I am right in my perception the republican parading has much bigger issues
Why not answer the question?0 -
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DC - The sheer volume of parades is the problem. 2863 parades in 2007. Of these, 2270 were loyalist, 144 nationalist, and 449 neither.
5% of parades in NI are nationalist.
Can you explain to me what the attraction of parading is (for both communities) as I can see nothing attractive about them from both a musical or visual point of view. In fact, the most visually attractive parade Gay Pride is frowned upon.
Ok that’s a fair question.
Do not hold me to exact numbers here I could be a few hundred out either way
On big days like the 12th there are 19 main parades but every little lodge has a pre parade in their town or village early in morning on the way and same on way home. Same on Derry day
Each lodge also as an annual church service which they will parade/walk to, often only a few hundred yards.
That’s potentially 2,000 parades but few will even know they’ve happened.
Loyalist band parades are the main parading culture in ni. There’s prob about 600 bands and each one will have its own parade and invite bands they are friendly with to it. Could range from 10-70 bands. These are very important fundraisers for the home band and a competition for all bands attending. There’s another 600 parades.
Hope that explains it
Hope that helps explain the number.
In addition there are endless band concerts and competitions indoor in the winter and some static ones outdoor in the summer
It is a huge commitment for members. Serious bands will practice several nights a week on top of this and travel to various parts of the would to parade at events and competition0 -
20-30 yearsOk that’s a fair question.
Do not hold me to exact numbers here I could be a few hundred out either way
On big days like the 12th there are 19 main parades but every little lodge has a pre parade in their town or village early in morning on the way and same on way home. Same on Derry day
Each lodge also as an annual church service which they will parade/walk to, often only a few hundred yards.
That’s potentially 2,000 parades but few will even know they’ve happened.
The Parades Commission has a comprehensive listing of all the parades.
Here is the one for 2019.
2317 PUL Community (236 in Belfast) - 123 parade determinations.
111 Catholic/Nationalist/Republican (1 in Belfast). 2 parade determinations.Loyalist band parades are the main parading culture in ni. There’s prob about 600 bands and each one will have its own parade and invite bands they are friendly with to it. Could range from 10-70 bands. These are very important fundraisers for the home band and a competition for all bands attending. There’s another 600 parades.
Hope that explains it
What is the attraction of the culture though? For all that investment in music, why has this culture only produced one world renowned musician ever? (James Galway).Hope that helps explain the number.
In addition there are endless band concerts and competitions indoor in the winter and some static ones outdoor in the summer
It is a huge commitment for members. Serious bands will practice several nights a week on top of this and travel to various parts of the would to parade at events and competition
Why don't they participate in the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin which has bands from all over the world participating?0 -
15-20 yearsI promise you I did not look up any until immediately after my post. I am trying to get people to face up to reality and fact. I picked parading as it is painted as a loyalist hatefest and I thought a year was a reasonable time to avoid people going away back.
I am very happy you set the parameters. But the silence would suggest I am right in my perception the republican parading has much bigger issues
Why not answer the question?
Honestly, Downcow I know you get accused of trolling quite often, but I don't think you are. I honestly fully accept that you genuinely believe that you're just, 'facing up to reality' and you're being totally objective.
I totally understand that you can't see your own bias, and that you perceive the situation in the North as a fully black and white, 'Republicans were in the wrong, Republicans are still in the wrong'. I don't believe you're trolling when you present this as, 'objective reality'.
The issue is that, historically when conversing with you, you're so set in your mentality that you seem to block out anything that contradicts your fervently held beliefs.
In general, your method of reply when faced with a point you don't like is to reply to the other parts of the post and ignore the difficult bit.
We've had plenty of back and forth discussions, I've certainly left some of them, while perhaps not agreeing with you, at least feeling a better understanding of how and why you believe what you do. I would be very surprised if you've read a single post on this entire forum and gone away thinking anything beyond, 'well I showed them, I'm right, as usual'.
Objectively, there is no one in this world who could look at the history of parading in the North and say, 'Republicans are the problem, only Republicans, Orangeism, Loyalist Bands and their various hangers on are totally without fault', which seems to be the agenda you're pushing as 'reality'.
For your Republicans dressed up in stupid looking paramilitary regalia, it's easy to point out Loyalists carrying banners commemorating, for example Brian Robinson and the UVF.
For your Republican Irish Dancing (which you decided to frame as somehow provocatively dancing on 'the graves' of victims), we can point out the bands playing provocative anti-Catholic songs, for example parading in a circle outside a chapel playing 'the famine song'.
For every, 'Tiocfadh ár lá' there's someone shouting, 'No Surrender'.
Personally, I think the whole lot is idiotic, but I'm sure in your eyes, they're totally different. They're only commemorating the UVF who fought in WWI (and ignore the Brian Robinson lark), they were playing Sloop John B (purely coincidentally outside a chapel), No Surrender and its connection with militant Loyalism is totally different to Tiocfadh ar la and its connection with militant Republicanism.
I wholeheartedly believe you'll read this, totally dismiss it and go back to thinking you're totally right and it's just those pesky Republicans ruining everything in, 'our wee country'.
That's why I'm not going to try and find video evidence that there are controversial elements around Loyalist parading. Christ, you still try and deny any wrongdoing or burning of Irish effigies at 11th Night bonfires despite the absolute mountains of visual evidence to the contrary. I'd be as well trying to find evidence that the sky is blue for someone who doesn't accept that the colour exists and doesn't consider physics to be evidence.0 -
The Parades Commission has a comprehensive listing of all the parades.
Here is the one for 2019.
2317 PUL Community (236 in Belfast) - 123 parade determinations.
111 Catholic/Nationalist/Republican (1 in Belfast). 2 parade determinations.
What is the attraction of the culture though? For all that investment in music, why has this culture only produced one world renowned musician ever? (James Galway).
Why don't they participate in the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Dublin which has bands from all over the world participating?
I haven’t checked but do most of the determinations not apply to one parade?
Lots of world champion bands both marching and orchestral as well as world champion drum majors, pipers and drumming cores.
Not sure if they would be allowed to participate in the parade on the same basis as nationalist bands. One of our local bands was refused permission into our local st pats parade. There were 70 loyalist bands planned to take part in Armagh st pats parade this year but it has just been cancelled
They are welcomed to mayors parades in many cities eg London, New York etc0 -
Honestly, Downcow I know you get accused of trolling quite often, but I don't think you are. I honestly fully accept that you genuinely believe that you're just, 'facing up to reality' and you're being totally objective.
I totally understand that you can't see your own bias, and that you perceive the situation in the North as a fully black and white, 'Republicans were in the wrong, Republicans are still in the wrong'. I don't believe you're trolling when you present this as, 'objective reality'.
The issue is that, historically when conversing with you, you're so set in your mentality that you seem to block out anything that contradicts your fervently held beliefs.
In general, your method of reply when faced with a point you don't like is to reply to the other parts of the post and ignore the difficult bit.
We've had plenty of back and forth discussions, I've certainly left some of them, while perhaps not agreeing with you, at least feeling a better understanding of how and why you believe what you do. I would be very surprised if you've read a single post on this entire forum and gone away thinking anything beyond, 'well I showed them, I'm right, as usual'.
Objectively, there is no one in this world who could look at the history of parading in the North and say, 'Republicans are the problem, only Republicans, Orangeism, Loyalist Bands and their various hangers on are totally without fault', which seems to be the agenda you're pushing as 'reality'.
For your Republicans dressed up in stupid looking paramilitary regalia, it's easy to point out Loyalists carrying banners commemorating, for example Brian Robinson and the UVF.
For your Republican Irish Dancing (which you decided to frame as somehow provocatively dancing on 'the graves' of victims), we can point out the bands playing provocative anti-Catholic songs, for example parading in a circle outside a chapel playing 'the famine song'.
For every, 'Tiocfadh ár lá' there's someone shouting, 'No Surrender'.
Personally, I think the whole lot is idiotic, but I'm sure in your eyes, they're totally different. They're only commemorating the UVF who fought in WWI (and ignore the Brian Robinson lark), they were playing Sloop John B (purely coincidentally outside a chapel), No Surrender and its connection with militant Loyalism is totally different to Tiocfadh ar la and its connection with militant Republicanism.
I wholeheartedly believe you'll read this, totally dismiss it and go back to thinking you're totally right and it's just those pesky Republicans ruining everything in, 'our wee country'.
That's why I'm not going to try and find video evidence that there are controversial elements around Loyalist parading. Christ, you still try and deny any wrongdoing or burning of Irish effigies at 11th Night bonfires despite the absolute mountains of visual evidence to the contrary. I'd be as well trying to find evidence that the sky is blue for someone who doesn't accept that the colour exists and doesn't consider physics to be evidence.
Quite a sad post really. There is so much spin in it I don’t know where to start.
Your pr doesn’t work. You will take ages to write a big long post yet you refuse to post a video of one single piece of offensive behaviour by a loyalist parade in the last 12 months.
You accuse me of ducking the issues and yet I am the one trying to focus the discussion and bring light rather than heat.
Do you not think that if this behaviour was currently as bad as suggested that all these republican posters on here would willingly post it.
Now you have raised bonfires. I am happy you deal with it. The behaviour at a tiny minority disgusts me but the behaviour is equally bad at a majority of republican fires.
A few hardliners on here are trying to steer the thinking of moderate nationalists but when asked for evidence there is next to nothing
Sf pr and spin.0 -
15-20 yearsQuite a sad post really. There is so much spin in it I don’t know where to start.
Your pr doesn’t work. You will take ages to write a big long post yet you refuse to post a video of one single piece of offensive behaviour by a loyalist parade in the last 12 months.
You accuse me of ducking the issues and yet I am the one trying to focus the discussion and bring light rather than heat.
Do you not think that if this behaviour was currently as bad as suggested that all these republican posters on here would willingly post it.
Now you have raised bonfires. I am happy you deal with it. The behaviour at a tiny minority disgusts me but the behaviour is equally bad at a majority of republican fires.
A few hardliners on here are trying to steer the thinking of moderate nationalists but when asked for evidence there is next to nothing
Sf pr and spin.
Exactly as expected, and predicted. Avoid the awkward parts, head in the sand, a minority of Republicans should be taken as representative of the whole, but a minority of Loyalists are just a few bad eggs.
No comment on the Brian Robinson and UVF memorials? Of the playing songs like The Famine Song? Of the shouts of, 'No Surrender', or acknowledgment that they parallel the examples you gave?
Of course not.
No PR from me, Downcow, I'm happy to call the bull**** out on both sides. You're the one trapped in a grossly simplified, 'themmuns bad' mentality. Quite sad indeed.0 -
20-30 yearsIreland are facing off against Great Britain in the Prestbury Cup at Cheltenham this week, where does your loyalties lie Downcow?0
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BonnieSituation wrote: »Ireland are facing off against Great Britain in the Prestbury Cup at Cheltenham this week, where does your loyalties lie Downcow?
Get your money on Coronavirus in the last. Dead cert!0 -
30-40 yearsIn general, your method of reply when faced with a point you don't like is to reply to the other parts of the post and ignore the difficult bit.
He claims to be a strong supporter of the GFA (which accommodates a United Ireland) while simultaneously saying that he doesn't know if he would remain peaceful if NI ceased to exist.
These are wholly incompatible positions to claim to hold.0 -
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Exactly as expected, and predicted. Avoid the awkward parts, head in the sand, a minority of Republicans should be taken as representative of the whole, but a minority of Loyalists are just a few bad eggs.
No comment on the Brian Robinson and UVF memorials? Of the playing songs like The Famine Song? Of the shouts of, 'No Surrender', or acknowledgment that they parallel the examples you gave?
Of course not.
No PR from me, Downcow, I'm happy to call the bull**** out on both sides. You're the one trapped in a grossly simplified, 'themmuns bad' mentality. Quite sad indeed.
It is ironic that fionn and mates use an attack on me about not answering questions, to avoid answering questions.
I will answer any question you ask but I have not the energy to answer every point in elongated diatribe
I asked for real video evidence and then I could comment on reality and context (unlike you and mates who ignore my videos posted)
But I will try to respond to your vague comments.
Brian Robinson memorial. This (I believe) is a fairly fringe event in a 100% loyalist area Certainly not something I would attend or support but like Francie says people should be allowed to remember their dead
The famine song - depends on context and where it is sing. I am not one for sanitising the whole place. I do get the humour of it if sung at a rangers celtic game in that context. I’ve never attended a rangers and never heard it anywhere live. I would be thoroughly disgusted if I heard it at an ni game but I never have.
If this song is genuinely hurtful then I’d like to learn.
No surrender. I suppose very like chuckie ar la In a loyalist setting its fine If used to annoy other community then it is unacceptable. In the middle of gstq it’s disgusting.
I won’t avoid questions unlike you and your mates0
This discussion has been closed.
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