Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977840#Comment_121977840

The two control centres are on that section so testing and commissioning makes sense. However, there's a big difference between that, and opening to the public for services. The operator would lose money doing it. If it's TIIs intention then they need to express it, so tenderers can factor it into their financial models.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977993#Comment_121977993

I assume the operate contract will be similar to Luas where the fee paid to the operator will be based on performance, not fares revenue.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978011#Comment_121978011

Also months of using the systems on a shorter quieter section could only be good for getting all the staff up to speed on things, meaning when the rest opens there are already experienced staff working not just trained staff.
It makes sense to me if it’s logistically viable to do it.
as I joked above it will cause outrage among the people who get outraged by everything but that’ll happen no matter what.

KrisW1001

I wouldn't be certain they'd lose money on that section if it was Estuary-Northwood (i.e. including the short underground section at the Airport). I expect that ML will be very busy on all sections from opening day(s).

The enormous latent demand for mass transport in Dublin: look at how both DART and Luas were given capacity increases almost from launch (In DART's case, more cars were ordered within 24 hours of first passengers being carried). I don't see ML being different.

Also, early opening would help the case for a second line. I think people in Dublin don't realise how much they really want a Metro network. Seeing a line in operation makes it very easy to imagine the same thing serving your own neighbourhood... and people who until now didn't care will start asking their TDs why their part of the city is getting left behind.

bikeman1

I'm not sure that Northwood - Dardistown would be an easy one to do early on. I presume where the tunnel comes out and looking at the documents, will be an important and busy construction site while the TBM is working its way to Charlemont?

Dublin Airport is a massive trip generator in all directions. I could envisage someone being dropped to Estuary or Swords Central to hop on the Metro straight to the centre of the airport in a few minutes. Far less hassle than trying to get in all the way to the airport.

Motorways are often open in sections, it makes now sense to not push on with testing, trailing, training staff and the system before the big launch into the city section.

cgcsb

From experience, its clear metrolink will be exceptionally busy from day 1 and will hit capacity well ahead of forecasts. Latent demand for good transit is severely underestimated in all traffic models, not just in Ireland but globally. So many trips are avoided/delayed because of the 'hassle' it would involve at present. At the moment if you fancy going to from Swords to the south city centre for non work purposes, your best option is to just not, who has time for a 2 hour round trip.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978806#Comment_121978806

Just as congestion and awkward changes to routes causes traffic to evaporate, so making travel easier or cheaper or more reliable causes an increase in use.

spacetweek

Regarding the lack of a mention of phasing in metrolink planning, experience abroad shows that when a Metrolink takes a long time to build, they only decide on a phased opening towards the end, as some sections reach completion sooner than others, or unexpected snags are hit.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980830#Comment_121980830

The Metro Blue Line 4 in Milan is an excellent example. It's Milan's 5th Metro line, but first fully automated driverless.

The first 6 stations from Linate Airport to Dateo (regional rail) opened in November 2022, with 2 additional stations opening in July 2023 to connect with Metro Red Line 1. The final 13 stations, with two Metro interchanges (Lines 2 and 3) are due to open in October 2024.

The stretch from Linate Airport to Dateo benefited from regional rail connections at Dateo, but was reasonably quiet anytime I used it. Probably served as good testing to iron out any issues. For example, a few times I used it the platform doors were not perfectly lining up with the tram doors, but seems to be fixed now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_Metro_Line_4

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980891#Comment_121980891

It's also a quarter of the cost of Metrolink per km. It's 15km long with 21 stations, all underground and all constructed with cut and cover.

Hopefully the same company can price Metrolink!!

KrisW1001

... at Italian wages, buying properties at Italian prices, in a country where they've been digging, bridging and tunnelling for two thousand years, give or take, so there's lots of competition for any project. Being on the continent helps a lot: all of the materials and specialised plant can be brought overland. Just getting stuff here costs far more.

Also in Italy, the infamous Roma Linea C is also very similar to Metrolink and Milan M4 for most of its length, and most of its stations are actually open. It's only the four stops around the old Roman Forum that have delayed the project so much..this was expected, and I posted a video about it a few pages back that shows just how big a job it is.

Pete_Cavan

Posters here have brought up the cost of that metro in Milan before but they were using costs from more than a decade ago, ignoring the huge cost increases since then, costs which didn't include rolling stock, etc.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121982705#Comment_121982705

Ah now I'm not suggesting we can build Metrolink for a quarter of the cost! It's a very relevant example of a similar line still under construction. The only point is that maybe the "unknown unknowns" are horsecrap (which they are) and Metrolink costs will stay within the expected range, hopefully on the lower end.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983212#Comment_121983212

Unfortunately, the media (IT I'm looking at you) will take an estimate of from €3 to €7 billion as €7 billion and that will become the quoted cost.

The next round of discussion of cost will have politicians opposed to the project quoting €13 billion because of 'rising costs and inflation'.

Now we have the figure of €13 billion being the accepted cost, and this is before a single request for interested parties to seek qualification.

Now will any bidders come in at €7 billion, even if that is possible?

Pete_Cavan

Metrolink won't be built under a single contract so there won't be one figure presented to government. The total cost will be the accumulation of multiple tenders, the biggest of which will be the PPP and it will be paid over 25 years.

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945679#Comment_121945679

It isn’t like it hasn’t been done here, the Dublin port tunnel which is in fact two tunnels with a combined length of 9.2km or 4.6miles was done in only five years (2001-06)

It has been done and can be done if the will was there which it isn’t.

MJohnston

Regarding potential phased opening, presumably you could even do it station by station as the TBM proceeds south — does anyone know where turnback facilities would exist on the completed line?

p_haugh

Only at the airport (and dardistown using the depot tracks I guess). The airport turn back is just north of the station, and only links to each tunnel in the southbound direction

Not sure if there's any planned further south.

Now, saying that, I would imagine it would be trivial enough to add temporary switches outside stations if the demand for it requires, especially if they're opening it in phases at a reduced frequency.

tom1ie

Does anyone know where the deepest point on metrolink will be?

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994261#Comment_121994261

The three sections can potentially have three different contractors, M401, M402 and M403. Then there's an M500 systems contractor that looks after the track, power and everything across the whole route. Any potential phasing would need to make sure the necessary contractors are in sequence. From M500 perspective, you won't want your track and systems design and build being stop start as they're international skills and expensive to mobilise and retain.

The M4 metro was mentioned above, think it was one Contractor overseeing everything which makes phasing alot more straightforward, open to correction on that.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994261#Comment_121994261

No, it's not possible, the debris from the TBM mining is going to be conveyored out through the entire tunnel, so the tunnel will be entirely off limits for testing/phased opening.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994367#Comment_121994367

M500 is the PPP which basically includes everything apart from the civil works. There is so much wrapped up in it and it will be for the company themselves (a JV between numerous huge international companies) to schedule all the various elements. You could have a company like Siemens and they will be involved for the full 25 years, it's not like traditional subcontracting where you bring in someone to do something and they are gone once that's finished.

The M500 contract will have to be awarded early as a huge amount of work for it will be happening in parallel with the civil works, it just won't be happening on site. There will be a huge amount of design work and approvals, then procurement and production of necessary items happening while the civil works are ongoing (the rolling stock will be years in production, all the ducting, ventilation equipment, transformers, etc. will be made specially for the project, even off-the-shelf items will be a "job lot" specifically for this project, they wont just hoping there is enough stock available when it's need, particularly given how fragile supply chains can be).

The PPP company will have paid hundreds of millions in down-payments, they will be monitoring the civils contracts and will want to get the two above ground sections as quickly as possible. They'd love to get going at the sections north of the M50 a couple of years before getting into the tunnel.

I'm sure the intention is that M401, M402 and M403 will have three different contractors. The scope of the works is so big that they want to utilise the resources of multiple contractors, that's why it has been split into three packages.

Paul2019

John Laing Group eyes Dublin Metro plan

Infrastructure investor interested in backing rail link between city and airport

Wed Apr 10 2024 - 08:30

I didn't read the article because I don't have a subscription but the IT seems to be saying that Jones Laing Group are interested in 12kms of the 18km Metrolink.

I wonder why Jones Laing don't seem to care (at least according to the I.T.) about the remaining 6kms and 4 additional stations from the Airport to Fosterstown, Swords Central, Seatown and Estuary Park and Ride beside the M1 Motorway.

Maybe it's just that the I.T. Ranelagh readership wouldn't know about anywhere or anyone north of the airport and so the I.T. just forgot or didn't care to report on the full project. Or maybe Jones Laing themselves have never been north of Dublin Airport and are just not interested.

Can anyone with access to the article shed any further light?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000103#Comment_122000103

The article says to the airport, and then claims it's going to Malahide. bad journalism and/or subediting.

Nowhere do Laing say they're interested in anything other than the full contract and indeed that's all that will ever be offered as the PPP, you can't operate part of it

markpb

There's nothing extra in the article, it's just a fluff piece about JLG. The comment about the link between the city and the airport feels like it was written by someone who doesn't know/care that the metro will go beyond the airport. It's in the business section of the paper so probably not written by someone with an interest in infrastructure.

Paul2019

Thanks guys, I suspected it was the usual inaccurate Irish Times take on stuff.

There's a reason I unsubscribed years ago.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000251#Comment_122000251

i think a some of blame should be shared by TII, for the duration of this project to date, journalists, even those that know better, have got away with city centre- airport narrative when we all know its far more than that.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000349#Comment_122000349

Tbf to TII, they have stated the benefits of the Swords connection in every single press briefing and spent several hours at the beginning of the oral hearing discussing this.

I think the degree of obsequiousness shown by Journalists towards bad faith actors, powerful as they are in public discourse, has a far larger degree of the blame in MetroLink getting sandbagged as an airport connection.

CatInABox

Dublin People have an article up based on some of the objections to the Metrolink from the oral hearings. Nothing new, or at least nothing new that couldn't have been guessed. No one really needs to read this stuff, but it does include what Rethink Metrolink were talking about (Ranelagh, etc), what one of the residents of College Gate wanted (move the station and have a pedestrian tunnel), and the Charlemont residents (safety concerns over the Luas).

The safety concerns are hilarious, by the way, if you want a laugh.

https://dublinpeople.com/news/southside/articles/2024/04/10/metrolink-south-west-expansion/

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000278#Comment_122000278

There are a number of international contractors who are only interested in building the tunnelled sections. They're view is that the cut/cover section can be delivered locally and the profit to be gained by them does not outweigh their cost of mobilisation/delivery for the likely win price.

The article about John Laing was partly because they opened an Irish branch today.