Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

prunudo

Any idea if the extra documents relate to the whole project, or is it just an element of it. Ie: just a station design or something that could be seperated from the overall project.

Hibernicis

Standard planning procedures allow for re-advertising when there is significant further info; without having to restart from scratch. I presume this is basically the same

That appears to be the case, from the article:

While it is expected the hearings will close this week, it is not known whether the board will reopen public hearings to allow oral statements to be made on the material, or if additional submissions would be considered in writing only.

No mention of going back to the start.

VinLieger

Jfc just get the fvck on with it

Sierra Oscar

I think it's to be somewhat expected. Most of the new documents relate to addressing issues raised during the oral hearings, and by by all accounts TIL have decisvely addressed those issues. I would be surprised if APB engaged in another round of oral hearings after the public consultation. Hard to see how the public consultation will find further issues that warrant an oral hearing.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943526#Comment_121943526

No, they don't. The RO has not been granted yet, so this is just supplementary info for the same application. It happens a lot in planning applications.

Some of the issues raised in the earlier public hearings received a very quick response with updated designs in some cases. Because those involved material changes to the plans, even if small, it's reasonable to allow interested parties to comment on those revisions.

Doing this now makes it harder for someone to pull a Judical Review later on the basis that plans were changed after the consultation had closed without allowing comment or review yadda yadda yadda...

I can see the RO being granted this year if a fire is lit under ABP. If we can get it out to tender before the election (Feb 2025), it'll be relatively safe from interference. Remember that this and DART+ are flagship Green Party transport programmes, so as such they could be scuppered by the next Dáil unless they are already too late to stop, or (less likely) the Greens return in the next government.

I know Metro North got to tender, but it really was too expensive to let proceed in those times. This time we can afford to build this (we can't afford not to, in the long run), so I'm more worried about a future government gutting the rail projects to fund bread and circus policies that will leave us with nothing...

CatInABox

I was surprised when I saw the article, but looking at it from the point of view of ABP, then it's actually to be expected. There has been a lot of new docs submitted throughout the oral hearings, and while there's been no "smoking gun" of significant change, so to speak, overall it does add up.

I would be very surprised if the consultation is a long one, and I'd guess that it'll be limited to areas that have changed in the RO. It should also, if they are smart, include areas where people have complained about "lack of consultation". Zero chance that this will change anything, but this will absolutely cut the legs out of any JR brought on those grounds.

As frustrating as this is, I suspect that this is the right option. There is no point in getting through planning only to face into a load of JRs, or at least, JRs that might get some traction in the courts.

On the "we welcome this" from TII, I think that they had a fair heads up on this. Some of the docs that were uploaded yesterday include the RO doc again, but with all the changes highlighted (the "REDLINE" docs), so it looks to me that TII not only knew about it, but are ahead of it.

cgcsb

I'm hearing now that it amounts to a re-advertisement, they'll only be answering queries as part of this public consultation, there's no possibility of design change

spillit67

Needs to be a couple of week extension max for things like this.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944760#Comment_121944760

So perhaps it’s not “toast” after all.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/03/27/metrolink-plan-is-seriously-flawed-says-environmentalist-and-architect-duncan-stewart/

Christ, if humanity had begun with a mentality like this we'd have never left the caves.

L1011

Duncan hasn't calculated the carbon emissions required with demolishing tens to hundreds of houses to widen the Northern Line and the lines to Glasnevin to take all the extra trains; I see.

Sam Russell

Duncan Stewart is another long retired 'expert' looking for attention.

A surface rail solution does not exist - even for part of it not already planned to be surface rail.

The Ballymun area were all out protesting about the prospect of rail passing through their back yard. The population of Ranelagh, including McDowell, were protesting about Metrolink forcing the closure of Dunville Avenue. Consequently, the Green Line will remain a tram service. That is before all the wasted time while a GAA club objecting to the loss of part of their pitch, and everyone affected campaigned for changes. It was planned to be opened about now.

At the end of 2050, more carbon will be saved by the shift from dirty diesels to Metro passengers.

prunudo

I still see far more negative stories about Metrolink being published than the positives it will bring.

Hibernicis

"The gauge of the metro rails was different to the rest of the country’s rail system, he said, which meant it could not integrate fully with the rail network, which meant it would not serve to take people out of their cars."

Duncan getting 2 + 2 = the answer he wants ?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945474#Comment_121945474

Sure don't you know intercity trains regularly barrel down the London Tube and Paris Metro lines.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945474#Comment_121945474

A gauge that, as I understand it, has in the past restricted us from buying new or secondhand stock in a quicker time frame should we need it.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945484#Comment_121945484

Does Duncan Stewart realise the Luas gauge is the same as the metro will have?

Did the Luas prevent anyone from getting out of their cars to travel on the Luas?

Of course not. It provides reliable travel for very many Dubliners - despite the service being labelled a 'white elephant' prior to it open by the usual suspects that are experts in such matters - the same ones that are knocking the Metro.

Why can they not let it go ahead. It will be fantastic for Dublin, and for our carbon footprint.

Economics101

Cities all over the world have been tunnelling on a huge scale in recent years. Is Duncan Stewart saying that there is something uniquely wrong about tunnelling in Dublin, or maybe that cities everywhere alse have been getting it disasterously wrong from an emissions stantpoint?

Always thought the man was far too negative on so many issues.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945519#Comment_121945519

Yes, Irish gauage is more or less unique to Ireland (a few bits of Australia and Brazil too) and is a major pain, making it much harder to buy off the shelf trains.

By comparison Standard gauge, well is standard, not only is it used for Luas, but is also used by pretty most rail across UK, Europe, North America and China, everything from trams to Metros to high speed rail use it.

Of course clueless idiots bring up the incompatibility between standard gauge and Irish gauge. There is far more to compatibility then just gauge. Cities across Europe like Berlin, Copenhagen have both tram/Metro/DART/S-Bahn systems all using standard gauge, but are still incompatible from one another because they are completely different systems with different signalling, power systems, platform heights, etc.

Also the route they are proposing is a very stupid idea, it would do nothing for the people of Swords (and of course the other Metrolink stops) as it would be a very slow and indirect way of getting to the city center from Swords and it would greatly hamper the usability of DART+.

prunudo

We should probably go for rollercoaster guage to compliment the range of emotions following this thread and other infrastructure projects brings 😃

cgcsb

As if there was a surface option available, what a plank

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945763#Comment_121945763

No tunnels, no high rise buildings, no cars, no urban sprawl. Right. So what can we have, Duncan?

You’d know he’d spent his life in Sandymount next to the DART and with an easy cycle up to RTE. If he lived in Swords or Lucan any other suburb, he’d be singing a different tune.

spacetweek

How low our expectations are that "hopefully we will have an ABP decision by the end of the year" is the limit of ambition in this place.

For the oral hearing to end in March but a decision to not be expected until 9 months later is absolutely shocking as it is.

We still need to be aiming for construction to be underway by this time next year. The constant timeline slippages would give you angina.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945339#Comment_121945339

The group is promoting a transport plan put forward by Tom Newton, who has been studying Dublin’s transport network since the 1960s.

Mr Newton’s plan would replace the underground line with a Dart system which would run from Donabate to Glasnevin, serving Swords, Dublin Airport and Ballymun. It would connect with the Belfast line at Donabate as well as the Sligo line, and the rail network from Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford at Cross Guns Bridge in Glasnevin.

Worth noting that this "Newton Plan" is properly insane. It proposes something like 6 new Luas lines, and as far as I can tell, a map of it only exists in a submission opposing the establishment of Metrolink.

Apologies for the reduced resolution but that is genuinely the best quality image I can find of it on the internet.

Needless to say, it is not a serious proposal. It depresses me because I have a decent bit of respect for Stewart, however if he's signal boosting this plan, it's patently clear that he isn't operating in good faith. Resident's associations boost these proposals because they know they would never clear even the most basic of interrogation. They would simply rather nothing being built at all.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946061#Comment_121946061

So no new north-south rail capacity basically is what they're after, the key issue trying to be resolved

Sam Russell

Michael McDowell, Colm McCarthy and now Duncan Stewart are experts in railway engineering, transport planning, and are now experts on traffic planning for airports - because Metrolink is an airport metro service to the city centre.

They are all retirement age and great users of their motor car, and looking after their own vested interests - like most people.

Now what was their position when Luas was being planned? Were they in favour or against? Answers on a post card please.

Idbatterim

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/03/27/metrolink-plan-is-seriously-flawed-says-environmentalist-and-architect-duncan-stewart/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Metrolink+plan+is++seriously+flawed+%2C+says+environmentalist+and+architect+Duncan+Stewart&utm_campaign=lunchtime_latest_digest

Take a read of this garbage. I really wonder why Frank Mcdonald and Duncan stewart aren't consulting for European cities with , they obviously know do much more and could save those continental morons a fortune... ireland being a world leader in delivering nothing except talk...

Qaanaaq

What is the point of publishing an article like this at this late stage in the planning process? The time to debate the overall concept was years ago.

I'm sure Duncan is well aware of this so it can only mean he wants the whole thing scrapped.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947455#Comment_121947455

Or he wants his name in print. How could anyone have a serious view that their brilliant idea is better than the one presented by TII? After the millions already invested by TII in the Metrolink project, does he think he can come up with a real money saver just by scrapping half of it??

CatInABox

Speaker list from today:

• ACRA Association of Combined Residents Association (1 hour)

• Andrew Whelan (10 minutes)

• Dublin Commuter Coalition (10 minutes)

• Dublin Cycling Campaign (20 minutes)

• Frank McDonald (30 minutes)

• Peter Twamley (10 minutes)

• Richard Guiney (15 minutes)

• Ruadhan MacEoin (20 minutes)

• CLG Na Fianna c/o Cormac O Donnchu (10 minutes)

• Cormac MacKay and Aeravai (15 minutes)

• Dublin Chamber (5 minutes)

• Michael Boyle (20 minutes)

• Dublin Central GP Limited (20 minutes)

• Greybirch Limited (15 minutes)

Todays docs are also up, showing what we all knew already, there isn't enough cycle parking at any of the stations on the route, with them predicting that demand will pass supply on day one. Great.

There's also a list of agreements that they've reached with people and organisations, a guideline for developers (post completion, basically telling devs not to mess with our s**t), updates to the EIAR due to that guideline, and a letter from Greybirch Ltd that quite funnily has [On Greybirch's Letterhead] where the letterhead should be, talk about a total low effort submission by Greybirch.

The sad thing with Duncan is that I think he's well meaning, it's just he's gone up a mental dead end on his thinking. Rather sad than anything else. Again, it's interesting that all of the submissions above, the only article that comes out of it is Duncan Stewart. It's really not been the lightening rod of disagreement that some in the media have hoped for.