Is anyone else starting to become a bit excited?

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Myself, I am struggling to think of a crypto product, with (proper) real world use and volume whereby the value of the crypto is increasing in proportion with the scale/revenue of that crypto use

'proper real world use' is it? You were given it. They're real examples - they're real businesses. As regards volume, sure they may not have run up to mega volume yet. But this goes back to the expectation of naysayers. i.e. those that expect crypto to be unveiled out of a bloody box, to have all the bells and whistles, the ecosystem to support it and immediate adoption. That's not how innovation rolls. Here's how innovation rolls -> Slowly at first and then all at once.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A solid example with figures that represent actual customers and volumes

You were provided with a 'solid example'. If you think that global remittances are not being disrupted by cryptocurrency in one form or another, then you know little if anything about this space.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Also, I can't think of any crypto project where the total market value of coins/tokens in circulation is the justifiable relative worth of what the company produces (final products, not never-ending development)

The vast majority of cryptocurrency projects will fail. However, just in case that's aimed at bitcoin, the clearest use case is as a hedge against statist money - the paper that's being printed at light speed right now. Bitcoin is hard money. It's a hedge against the conventional markets (having just a 15% correlation with equities right now).

If anyone is unclear in figuring out the use case for bitcoin, then I'd advise them to read Vijay Boyapati's thesis on it - The Bullish Case for Bitcoin.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Finally - what's to say the whole market isn't overvalued e.g. 10x

Call it then - is that what you're saying? Will that be a short term manifestation of the overall clusterf5&k that the conventional financial system is in right now? But if that's your view regardless- you should short it.

There are plenty of bright minds working on this tech and I'm confident that more will be achieved going forward. However, from the speculative point of view, I'd sooner see people who appreciate and understand the technology - and it's current status and future potential invest in it - than those who claim it has no value.

Lyan

Does anyone here have a holding in the Swedish Bitcoin Tracker One ETN? I would like to hear some opinions on it. For my own reasons I would rather not purchase Bitcoin myself but figured this may be a good alternative.

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

You were provided with a 'solid example'.

You've provided a very lengthy blog. If the details like revenue, profit, customers and other figures are in there, cool, but I couldn't find them. Also were looking for something where the value of the crypto is tied to the performance of the company

I'm looking for straightforward project with clearcut figures. Whereby revenue/profit is represented by the market performance of the crypto itself.

e.g. take the top 100 crypto's, forget the "currency" coins. Which of those projects generates the largest revenue/profits?

Grumpypants

Anyway back to being excited. Nice bump this morning. €140 ETH and €6560 Bitcoin.

Lex Luthor

Grumpypants wrote: »

Anyway back to being excited. Nice bump this morning. €140 ETH and €6560 Bitcoin.

The Boris news didnt seem to have much of an impact compared to the supposedly flattening or levelling off on cases/deaths in some countries

JJJJNR

Stellar on a massive pump .045 cent now.

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You've provided a very lengthy blog. If the details like revenue, profit, customers and other figures are in there, cool, but I couldn't find them.

Lets back up the bus here. You've added on your own 'requirements' to a challenge put down by a guy who claims this -> "Venomous sh1te is exactly what the entire cryptocurrency world deserves" ....with his follow on jibe that crypto is a pyramid scheme.

He demanded an example of real use case - and that's been provided. Pyramid schemes don't have real uses cases, never-mind demonstrate actual use case.

That use case is verifiable even if the neat financials that you are looking for are not available. I led with that one use case as it ties in pretty closely with Sabat's misplaced criticism surrounding the unbanked.

Bitcoin's main use case is that of digital gold / and a hedge against the conventional markets. Before anyone starts, that use case was not invalided recently. It's still formative in that role. Bitcoin is just 15% correlated with conventional markets.

In that respect, it can and will trade well beyond its production cost. I asked Sabat to confirm why gold trades beyond its production cost. It appears he doesn't have an answer.


Now, all the while - as you very well know Dohnjoe - this remains a nascent space. Aspects of the technology are still formative. You talk of the top 100 cryptos - many of them are still in beta. In the dot com boom/bust, well over 500 internet companies were shutdown or declared bankrupt. Startups fail - and many of these projects will too.

Notwithstanding that, there is something tangible here and guys coming on here saying that crypto is a pyramid scheme have NO credibility. There are plenty of criticisms to be leveled at the crypto space and at individual projects. However, if in making any such criticisms an individual can't acknowledge one single attribute of this technology, they're not to be taken seriously.

If someone can't see utility or the potential for utility in any blockchain or cryptocurrency project, they have no business in speculating on any such project.

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

He demanded an example of real use case

It's more than that, I would suggest reading it again. It's a very interesting point. No one in this thread has addressed it properly or provided a clear cut example.

To add my own related questions: Is there any project inside the "top 100" cryptos that is making significant revenue from their services? Is that revenue reflected in the market price and performance of that crypto?

All I can think of off the top of my head are exchanges, which are based on trading, so they don't really count.

Blueshoe

The only people that think bitcoin is worth anything are those who own some.
The vast majority of people don't think it's worth anything.

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's more than that, I would suggest reading it again.

No - I've gone to enough trouble. When he comes back here and corrects the blatant lies about the crypto sector being a 'pyramid scheme' and those involved in it being deserving of his venemous shíte, I'll indulge him further.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No one in this thread has addressed it properly or provided a clear cut example.

A fan of the rhetorical it seems. You've been around here plenty long enough. You know exactly what stage this sector is at in its development. If you had a half finished factory, would you expect those behind it to present you with production output/revenue figures?

Be that as it may, I presented the digital gold use case. I've asked the question as to why gold trades well beyond its production value - and there are no answers forthcoming.

makeorbrake

Blueshoe wrote: »

The only people that think bitcoin is worth anything are those who own some.
The vast majority of people don't think it's worth anything.

If that's the case, Blueshoe, I'm ok with that. We do know that the number of bitcoin wallets holding 1 or more BTC continues to increase. In the case of bitcoin, mass market appeal would be dreamy. However, bitcoin doesn't necessarily have to have mass market appeal to be successful.

And the most important point that naysayers never get and/or refuse to take into account: This is a tech/innovation in ongoing evolution and development.

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

No - I've gone to enough trouble.

Haven't seen any posts properly addressing it in this thread. I have an absurdly high amount of alts, most of which I researched 3 years ago, and apart from the exchange coins I don't think any of them are operating under their own steam/revenue - let alone there being any tie between real-world performance and value of their token

Some have produced a final product which no one is interested in or they are going through the neverending development cycle to hype the price of their token which has no correlation with the actual real-world performance and service provided by the company behind

If these were companies most would be in default. The only reason why all of them are still going is this crazy secondary market, which is based almost entirely on pure gambling/speculation.

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Haven't seen any posts properly addressing it in this thread. I have an absurdly high amount of alts, most of which I researched 3 years ago, and apart from the exchange coins I don't think any of them are operating under their own steam/revenue - let alone there being any tie between real-world performance and value of their token

Some have produced a final product which no one is interested in or they are going through the neverending development cycle to hype the price of their token which has no correlation with the actual real-world performance and service provided by the company behind

If these were companies most would be in default. The only reason why all of them are still going is this crazy secondary market, which is based almost entirely on pure gambling/speculation.

Ok, so in summary, you've invested in something that you think is junk and you think will remain junk. I'd suggest you sell them all off today. Problem solved.

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

Ok, so in summary, you've invested in something that you think is junk and you think will remain junk. I'd suggest you sell them all off today. Problem solved.

I'm invested in herd psychology. A part of that are investors who see crypto as an "ideology", they are emotional vested in it for X or Y reasons. However if projects and coins remain in development "purgatory" or perpetual unfinished states, there's the risk that even these investors will lose faith. So from an investment standpoint, yeah that's a worry.

As for whether most of this is junk, absolutely it is, we'd all agree on that. But people still pump cash into coins like Bitcoin Diamond as part of the whole herd psychology thing, there is literally a market for dog****, it's almost as reliable as it is illogical.

For the rest that isn't "junk", can it stand up to basic investor scrutiny? that's what this discussion is exploring (exposing), that's the part that is looking shakier over time. Thinning the herd so to speak, which isn't good.

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I'm invested in herd psychology. A part of that are investors who see crypto as an "ideology", they are emotional vested in it for X or Y reasons. However if projects and coins remain in development "purgatory" or perpetual unfinished states, there's the risk that even these investors will lose faith. So from an investment standpoint, yeah that's a worry.

Hmm...if you see no tangible benefit or use case - no positive attributes - no promise to the technology, investing on the basis of 'herd psychology' seems like a very shaky strategy. I think you know yourself then that the answer is to sell up. As an aside, was 'herd psychology' also the basis for your initial investment back in 2017?

Dohnjoe wrote: »

As for whether most of this is junk, absolutely it is, we'd all agree on that.

You can grade them out. There were out and out scams - there still are. There were ill-conceived projects from geeks that are stuck with a concept with never any proper consideration of use case. There are projects that have a use case but they can't make the leap from the code to delivering the product. Then there are those projects that might be on the right track but they follow in the footsteps of other projects that are further along in their development/network effect, etc.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

But people still pump cash into coins like Bitcoin Diamond as part of the whole herd psychology thing, there is literally a market for dog****, it's almost as reliable as it is illogical.

When it comes to the projects that have forked off bitcoin (Cash/Gold/Diamond/SV, etc.), to me they've lost - they're dead. There was some confusion up until the end of 2017 as regards whether there was something in those different approaches but that question has been answered as far as I can see.
I agree that they're just lingering on - but you do your own research and make up your own mind. This isn't anything that's exclusive to crypto. Look at one very recent example from the conventional markets - where retail investors started buying Zoom Technologies in error (when they thought they were buying into Zoom Video).

Dohnjoe wrote: »

For the rest that isn't "junk", can it stand up to basic investor scrutiny? that's what this discussion is exploring (exposing), that's the part that is looking shakier over time. Thinning the herd so to speak, which isn't good.

Again, I'd be inclined to come back to what you see as the fundamental merits of these projects. If you didn't come up with anything from the very outset and you are at the same point today, 'herd psychology' is a very poor foundation to stay vested in said tokens.

This is a sub-forum under 'investments & markets'. Nobody is under any illusion but that we are all speculating on the development of a nascent technology and innovative sector. With that comes great risk. Could you have picked out Amazon from the hundreds of internet startups back in the day?

We are still very early in this space. It's still formative. However, if you can't come up with any merits to this tech and the specific projects you've invested in, then you should sell today.

FFVII

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22790478

Might be of interest to some

grindle

Dohnjoe wrote: »

e.g. take the top 100 crypto's, forget the "currency" coins. Which of those projects generates the largest revenue/profits?

I wouldn't specifically recommend people buy the first two of these unless they're bullish on likelihood of the protocols gaining popularity as neither are profit sharing via the token, but:

Numerai
I'd hazard a guess this is the most profitable project using a token as integral to their model, outside of an exchange.

They dole out anywhere from $10k+ to $140k+ (back when the market was insane) a month in prizes - over $23m so far, roughly 70% of which is from other scientists staking tokens gambling that their data is correct and 30% is a top-off from the hedge fund/Numerai - to data scientists given anonymised datasets of real-world stocks or assets, they make their predictions and the closer their prediction of the stock's performance is to the outcome, the more they win. I'd be stunned if Fred Wilson and Richard Craib weren't earning hundreds of thousands if not millions per month from the predictions.

Craib and Wilson have both confirmed Numerai doing very well for them and that's all they can say. I can't imagine $7m-ish is the meat of what that project has made them (to be given away?) as that would be spectacularly stupid and Wilson/USV is famous for having the most extreme money-multiplier exits of any hedge fund.

GUTS Tickets/GET Protocol
They're well out of the top 100 but GUTS Tickets with their protocol has sold hundreds of thousands of tickets in the Netherlands at this stage. Still small beans but I can't imagine they are doing badly. Well, until now, Eventmageddon.

The success of that token banks on utility, so really rests on artists and/or venues not wanting to capitulate or whore themselves out via repulsive scum like Ticketmaster, or letting fans get pocket-raped by scalpers/Viagogo/Stubhub.

One that is profit sharing and does well: Kucoin Shares.
€38m in volume over the last 24hrs, half of their (very low, 0.1%) trading fees go to holders. Return is about 5%-ish considering current price (€0.88) but I paid about half that last year so return for me at the moment is more like 10% from February 2019 to now. Sucks for the people who bought it at over €1.50 last year I guess, or the poor feckers who bought it for €19 in January 2018. Their volume jumps a bit during free periods but it doesn't stick (people with bots taking advantage).
If good times come back (volume was once 15x higher) then it'll be quids-in for dividends. Token price would likely rise more. Actually, I would've made a lot more money selling it two months after I bought it but I'm the idealist type who thinks the market will pop again. Ah well.
It could exit scam tomorrow.

Various options available for companies to suit their own wants. If the only thing you want is dividend tokens it either has to've been built, you have to build it or you have to wait for it to be built.
Maybe none of those fulfil your want for a company to be as open as the protocol they're using but that's gonna be a rarity for now.
KCS probably comes closest, which is funny as they're easily the most likely to be gone tomorrow. Companies generally don't like openness, they like walled gardens and keeping cloaked whatever their edge is against the competition.

maninasia

Good recommends, also like KCS long term.
Ethereum is a great pick , it's the Microsoft OS of crypto, I can't see any other game in town. It has real and valid use cases.
LEND/AAVE have innovated very well and I trust that team.
kyber network a good one too for DeFi.

I went to cash (stable coins ) with half my position, got a bit shaken out because the crash was so severe. Normally I'm all crypto. It's been a tough few years it really has. I got REALLY pissed off when bitcoin **** the boat again when literally it's whole use case (the alternative to cash) was blown apart. I don't like bitcoin and fandom around it but I still hold a portion .

makeorbrake

maninasia wrote: »

Good recommends, also like KCS long term.
Ethereum is a great pick , it's the Microsoft OS of crypto, I can't see any other game in town. It has real and valid use cases.
LEND/AAVE have innovated very well and I trust that team.
kyber network a good one too for DeFi.

DeFi is a great development - and it's moving at pace. ETH has pivoted nicely from a platform for ICO's to a much more significant use case via DeFi. Plenty of kinks to be ironed out - which might take a while - but once that's done, there will be something tangible to show for it.

maninasia wrote: »

I got REALLY pissed off when bitcoin **** the boat again when literally it's whole use case (the alternative to cash) was blown apart. I don't like bitcoin and fandom around it but I still hold a portion .

I don't believe it did invalidate its use case as digital gold. Bitcoin is 15% correlated with equities. It followed equities down last month - but so did gold as you can see here ->



As the 2008 financial crisis unfolded, gold dropped 30%. When margin calls have to be covered, asset managers are going to scramble to get the funds from where-ever they can. That doesn't exclude a hedge or safe-haven.

It's a piddly little market by comparison with gold's market cap of $7 trillion. It's still formative but it can still take its place as one particular basket in its own right of an uncorrelated asset.

With 'money printer goes brrr' in effect, I'd expect it to move upwards in the aftermath of this collapse - particularly so if the distribution of that 'free money' leads to inflation.

Lex Luthor

fast forward to 1:23:10 for the discussion about CBDC's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyqdQlCMwjs

for anyone interested after that, Brad Garlinghouse of Ripple talks about Ripple & XRP (2:10:00 timeline)

q85dw7osi4lebg

Lex Luthor wrote: »

for anyone interested after that, Brad Garlinghouse of Ripple talks about Ripple & XRP (2:10:00 timeline)

I'd rather eat glass

JJJJNR

Think thats a dead cat bounce on BTC.

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

Hmm...if you see no tangible benefit or use case - no positive attributes - no promise to the technology, investing on the basis of 'herd psychology' seems like a very shaky strategy. I think you know yourself then that the answer is to sell up. As an aside, was 'herd psychology' also the basis for your initial investment back in 2017?

It's been successful, my first investments were in 2013. But that doesn't detract from the fact that most of it is garbage. A fork of a fork of BTC is worth 3.5 bn. That's insane, there's no reason or logic to it. No one can explain or demonstrate how it's worth that. I could e.g. give you the financials of a company and from that you or anyone could derive the approximate share value, but you can't do that with most cryptos. That's because the value is almost entirely based on herd psychology. But that's the attraction, a crazy irrational market that any schmuck can make big gains on.

Is this going to go on forever? who knows, but I am definitely getting more concerned, bit by bit it's getting exposed for what it really is (e.g. the 40% drop of the entire market in a matter of hours, the fact that it apparently isn't a hedge against the economy dropping, etc)

Am I happy to make gains from this stuff? absolutely, am I going to dump it all tomorrow because most of it is terrible? nope, but at the end of the day, the fact is, most of this stuff is terrible

Dohnjoe

grindle wrote: »

Numerai
I'd hazard a guess this is the most profitable project using a token as integral to their model, outside of an exchange.

They dole out anywhere from $10k+ to $140k+ (back when the market was insane) a month in prizes - over $23m so far, roughly 70% of which is from other scientists staking tokens gambling that their data is correct and 30% is a top-off from the hedge fund/Numerai - to data scientists given anonymised datasets of real-world stocks or assets, they make their predictions and the closer their prediction of the stock's performance is to the outcome, the more they win. I'd be stunned if Fred Wilson and Richard Craib weren't earning hundreds of thousands if not millions per month from the predictions.

Decent post, fair enough, if it stacks up seems like there's at least one profitable project going (on it's own revenue). I've never really looked into Numeraire before. How's your Neufund and GoChain doing?

Kucoin is decent, but as mentioned I excluded exchange coins from my question as they feed off the beast so to speak.

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's been successful, my first investments were in 2013.

Ok, and in 2013, are you saying that you invested on the basis of herd psychology? ...and that there was no other motivation?

Dohnjoe wrote: »

But that doesn't detract from the fact that most of it is garbage.

Some of it may well be garbage and most of it won't make the grade ultimately. This isn't something that I've seen contested much. Most people seem to be of the opinion that when the dust settles on all this eventually, there will be certain category leaders/winners - with the vast majority of projects withering away. I'm not sure you'll find anyone to argue with on that.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A fork of a fork of BTC is worth 3.5 bn. That's insane, there's no reason or logic to it. No one can explain or demonstrate how it's worth that.

I can't (and don't want to) speak to BSV. Perhaps there are some lurkers here who can. Let me introduce you to Commerce One - who had a market cap of $21 billion at the height of the dot com boom.
That doesn't make BSVs market cap acceptable. However, it does put things in context. Most startups failed in the dot com boom - but some pretty cool tech emerged and industry leading companies.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No one can explain or demonstrate how it's worth that.

I'm not going to as I don't have any belief right now that the project has anything tangible to offer. Notwithstanding that, you'll appreciate that the issue of valuation in tokenomics is much more difficult to figure out.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No one can explain or demonstrate how it's worth that.

Right? And having established that it's much easier to calculate a company valuation rather than a blockchain or crypto project valuation, how did it all go so wrong with those valuations during the dot com boom n bust?

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I could e.g. give you the financials of a company and from that you or anyone could derive the approximate share value, but you can't do that with most cryptos.

See above

Dohnjoe wrote: »

That's because the value is almost entirely based on herd psychology. But that's the attraction, a crazy irrational market that any schmuck can make big gains on.

Right - and so this amazing system of yours - if it's as you say and the project(s) in question bomb, what puts you ahead of the herd in getting out?

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Is this going to go on forever? who knows,

This - I've come across quite a bit - from guys that insisted that it was going to be toast a couple of years ago already.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

but I am definitely getting more concerned, bit by bit it's getting exposed for what it really is

But (apparently) you knew all this already - or so you told us. As it seems that there is not one redeeming facet of the technology that is useful (at least, you have not ever mentioned anything positive insofar as I can recall).

Dohnjoe wrote: »

(e.g. the 40% drop of the entire market in a matter of hours,

You mean that event where ALL assets dropped?

Dohnjoe wrote: »

the fact that it apparently isn't a hedge against the economy dropping, etc).

You're effectively saying there's no safe haven asset it seems. Can you explain how gold dropped with equities last month? Can you explain why gold dropped 30% at the onset of the last financial crisis?

It appears that this is the end of the line then - as you tell us that your sixth sense is telling you that the game is up. You say that you're savvy enough to be ahead of the pack - can you confirm then that you're getting out right now? If not, what will do it for you? Maybe you can give a few of us a steer here too?



I don't see many people here suggesting that these projects are anything but high risk. Naturally, anyone who backs a project that fails will lose. However, anyone that comes along here (and there has been a few) and can't even acknowledge a single positive facet of the technology is not in any way credible.

My two satoshi's - you should sell up today and leave the rest of us to nurse our losses.

grindle

Dohnjoe wrote: »

How's your Neufund and GoChain doing?

:eek: :pac:

No idea tbf, your post reminded me look at them again! I tend to ignore most of the shítcoin splurges while the market is crippled. I did get to flip GO a few times so that actually worked out quite well in 2018. Same with RVN. I've put tons into many dead projects that'll never be seen again, 99.9% loss. Could easily sell a few down to 99.9999% loss, but it wasn't much money at the time and when times are good people get greedy and raise dead projects like nobody's business. If they don't come back - oh well.

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

Ok, and in 2013, are you saying that you invested on the basis of herd psychology? ...and that there was no other motivation?

Well yeah, that and money. Price is all we pretty much talk about.

If, theoretically we couldn't sell crypto, I certainly wouldn't own any.

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Well yeah, that and money. Price is all we pretty much talk about.

Yeah, this is 'investments and markets' so naturally I mean't motivation in terms of what would result in profit in this instance.

So in 2013, you said to yourself this is incredible muck, all of these guys are fools - I see no attribute in this technology but I can make money off these fools?

I'm quite happy to appreciate 'herd psychology', market euphoria and over exuberance. That can (and has been) a factor in all markets - to greater or lesser extents. What I find fascinating though is that in tandem with that, you're happy to invest in something that you believe has zero attributes and zero merits.

Can you disclose what crypto's you're holding? Surely then there's no selection process - you just buy random crypto's. I mean - according to you - they're all shíte so there wouldn't be a need to assess the merits of one against another right?

What would your recommend as a buy right now - and what indicators do you suggest to get out of the market in advance of the 'herd'?

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

So in 2013, you said to yourself this is incredible muck, all of these guys are fools - I see no attribute in this technology but I can make money off these fools?

I was being nagged by a friend to buy it at 20. When it hit around 70 or 80 I decided to stop dragging the heels and buy some.

What I find fascinating though is that in tandem with that, you're happy to invest in something that you believe has zero attributes and zero merits.

I'm not investing in the asset, I'm investing in people FOMOing in and buying the asset thus increasing it's value. I want to buy what's "attractive" to those people. You could detest Bitcoin cash for whatever personal reasons, but you know it likely it will rocket up in a bull because people will pile into the "cheaper Bitcoin", therefore an investment in it at the right time could pay off well. It's dogcrap, but we know that certain people buy it. And smart people know those people will buy it. Which creates it's own self sustaining rise in a bull run.

Likewise, you may hate Ripple for whatever reasons, but you know that stupid people are likely to pile into it in a bull "because it looks cheap".

Can you disclose what crypto's you're holding? Surely then there's no selection process - you just buy random crypto's. I mean - according to you - they're all shíte so there wouldn't be a need to assess the merits of one against another right?

I have an absurdly high number of alts. From my end: a bit of basic research to make sure the team is decent, that the idea "sounds good", that they have a whitepaper, roadmap, that the "fundamentals" are there. All that stuff makes it more attractive to the average crypto investor over a coin or project that doesn't have those things. Get lucky and you could get something that goes up 100x.

What would your recommend as a buy right now - and what indicators do you suggest to get out of the market in advance of the 'herd'?

BTC, Eth and a spread of exchange coins (to avoid risk on one exchange). If the market is ever going to have a major run, then exchange coins will naturally go up, whereas an individual alt might have some bull**** happen and get left out.

Is now the worst time to buy? comparatively no. Would I buy now? no, but if it dropped another 20% I would be interested.

Will there be another big bull like end 2013 or 2017? I would think so, but as I've said, I believe there is a clock on these things. It's only so long that BTC can go on before people realise, uhh people aren't actually using this stuff for anything but speculation.

JJJJNR

Solana #sol has started trading on binance.

The future is now.

It's not a good Friday it's a great Friday


:cool: