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Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,197 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The Benn-Letwin-Copoper amendment, just in, is the one to watch. Cross party support looking for an EXT to explore alternatives next week.
    This is Parliament taking control.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,468 ✭✭✭Oafley Jones


    The EU27 will vote based on their own interests, not those of Arron Banks or Nigel Farage. Their Eurosceptics might share some common ground but, unlike the UK they won't vote against their own interests simply because Farage asked them to.

    Of course they're just puppets; so you're convinced there isn't a weakness amongst the 27 where Putin could potentially press an advantage?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    If he did, the consequences could be explosive. It's supposed to stop the abuse of the Commons by dragging up the same bill over and over again.

    I'm not certain what the outcome of him doing so would be, but it does now need someone to actually grow a pair and do something to knock them all into action. A grenade such as that thrown into the mix might be enough to cause something/ anything to happen.

    As it is at the moment they are just going to go round and round in circles voting on things that have no meaning or against everything because there isn't a majority for anything other than "not that". Otherwise, May will just keep coming back with the same thing and each time another couple of MP's will get bored and forget which lobby they walked through the last time.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    British Euroscepticism is a completely hollow ideology based on presenting a disaster capitalist libertarian coup as a working class revolt. I know people in Ireland who've swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
    Likewise. Had a relative doing the whole red-face, finger-pointing, pop-eyed act the other day. No point in engaging.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,805 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    robinph wrote: »
    I'm not certain what the outcome of him doing so would be, but it does now need someone to actually grow a pair and do something to knock them all into action. A grenade such as that thrown into the mix might be enough to cause something/ anything to happen.

    As it is at the moment they are just going to go round and round in circles voting on things that have no meaning or against everything because there isn't a majority for anything other than "not that". Otherwise, May will just keep coming back with the same thing and each time another couple of MP's will get bored and forget which lobby they walked through the last time.

    It would mean the end of the deal. The EU will not renegotiate again. That leaves either another referendum or no deal. Possibly staying in the customs union.

    The 29th March is 15 days away. MP's have precious little time to get bored and vote on motions.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,114 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Guy Verhofstadt reiterates the point that the brits will only get an extension for a sensible reason...

    https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1106145647722295296


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,709 ✭✭✭✭josip


    ...Unless there is a clear majority in the House of Commons for something precise...


    Does that mean that they have to have had a vote on something?
    It doesn't sound like a majority of the HOC believing that they need to extend to get cross party consensus would be sufficient.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    josip wrote: »
    Does that mean that they have to have had a vote on something?
    It doesn't sound like a majority of the HOC believing that they need to extend to get cross party consensus would be sufficient.

    If one of the amendments mentioning having another referendum pass then they'll get their extension.

    If the DUP amendment to the extension request saying that they shouldn't be another referendum then May will just be told via twitter not to waste her time in asking before the results have even been passed from the tellers to the speaker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,386 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    milhous wrote: »
    Irish beef is great. Cows have a much happier life here too than most countries. I don't think I'd like to see Irish beef become a thing of the past.

    Keep supplying the local market. And other markets but scale back


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,386 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    I ain't a farmer I would not know, if you want to address climate change then let's discuss the elephant in room, out of control population growth that needs food. But that's nothing to do with Brexit.

    However getting back to politics from your whataboutism post. I do know that in Irish politics they are one industry that the government will not ignore.

    Plant based diet requires less land, less water, less energy and emits less methane. It’s all around better and realistically the only way we can sustain population growth.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 67,367 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    josip wrote: »
    Does that mean that they have to have had a vote on something?
    It doesn't sound like a majority of the HOC believing that they need to extend to get cross party consensus would be sufficient.

    It just means that their 'taking No Deal off the table' shennanigans is meaningless unless they come up with something they want. As was always the case.

    If they don't want the Deal then, as far as the EU is concerned, it is No Deal.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,805 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    ted1 wrote: »
    Keep supplying the local market. And other markets but scale back
    ted1 wrote: »
    Plant based diet requires less land, less water, less energy and emits less methane. It’s all around better and realistically the only way we can sustain population growth.

    Mod: Take this elsewhere please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,365 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    These are the four amendments chosen:

    1) Sarah Wollaston’s - calling for an extension to article 50 to allow for time for a referendum on Brexit.

    2) Hilary Benn’s - saying next Wednesday should be set aside for a debate that would start the process of allowing MPs to hold indicative votes on Brexit alternatives. There is also an amendment to this amendment, from Labour’s Lucy Powell, changing the timing.

    3) Labour’s - saying article 50 should be extended to allow time for MPs to find a majority for a different approach to Brexit.

    4) Chris Bryant’s - saying Theresa May should not be allowed to put her deal to the Commons again
    .

    None are particularly pro-Brexit which is strange.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    So what would be the best outcome for Ireland now?

    If the WA is passed on the third vote at least we will know where we stand. I realise it will only be the start of the real process but it will give a degree of certainty

    An extension will create uncertainty and ultimately the only other options are leave with no deal, or revoke Brexit altogether. I suppose a future labour government might go for a customs union but success of that is far from a given.

    If Britain revokes Brexit altogether what kind of EU member will they be. They might even send a larger number of Farage types to the European Parliament.

    Maybe it will be possible to cancel Brexit altogether but it will take time to heal wounds both in UK and between Uk and EU.
    This also damages anglo Irish relations.

    Why did they ever call the referendum?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭Irishmale0399


    2nd referendum vote this afternoon....they are going around in circles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,528 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    They are busy attacking the speaker now. Some very upset MPs about the amendments selected.

    Bercow is well able to stand up for himself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,365 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    They are busy attacking the speaker now. Some very upset MPs about the amendments selected.

    Francois very upset apparently. Schadenfreude is unhealthy but one can indulge once in a while.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,961 ✭✭✭Patser


    Awww. I wanted Chope's amendment to be debated, the one that basically said sack the lot of them who negotiated this bloody deal.


  • Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Are these amendments binding?

    I'm a bit lost over the whole point of these votes and amendments.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    They are busy attacking the speaker now. Some very upset MPs about the amendments selected.

    Bercow is well able to stand up for himself.

    Next stage in the shambles:- Berexit?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    The Independent is reporting a westminster vote to allow a 2nd brexit referendum is to be held.
    Edit.. that will teach me to speed read.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,197 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    They are four positive motions. Seems like Bercow ruled out negative motions.
    Beautiful put down by him to JRM. Invited JRM for a cup of tea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    GLaDOS wrote: »
    Are these amendments binding?

    I'm a bit lost over the whole point of these votes and amendments.

    AFAIK, none of them are - Benn amendment most likely to pass today, as Labour won't back Wollaston. If Bryant passes, you're probably looking at a 21-month extension.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,323 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The EU27 will vote based on their own interests, not those of Arron Banks or Nigel Farage. Their Eurosceptics might share some common ground but, unlike the UK they won't vote against their own interests simply because Farage asked them to.


    Essentially, Farage et al. are asking other countries to use political capital and exercise a veto in respect of an extension of Brexit. The use of the veto in the EU isn't widespread because it is expected that those using it should be doing so in respect of a vital national interest.

    I really cannot see how any member of the EU could say that it was in their vital national interest that the UK crash out with no deal on 29 March rather than any other option that is being put and that has the support of everyone else around the table. Yes, there will be negotiations around any statement, yes there will be negotiations around conditions for an extension and for how long, but I would be very surprised if anyone exercised a veto to block an extension. If an extension is blocked, it will be because there are at least seven or eight uncomfortable with an extension.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,197 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Woolaston vote may be early for Labour even though it's their policy. McDonnell indicated they might back such a motion next week. Seems they first want to tease out soft Brexit alternatives as per Corbyn last night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,676 ✭✭✭Chong


    Hang where did May's vote go today or could that be out the window like last night with all the amendments again.

    This gets more shambolic by the minute.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,323 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    joe40 wrote: »
    So what would be the best outcome for Ireland now?

    If the WA is passed on the third vote at least we will know where we stand. I realise it will only be the start of the real process but it will give a degree of certainty

    An extension will create uncertainty and ultimately the only other options are leave with no deal, or revoke Brexit altogether. I suppose a future labour government might go for a customs union but success of that is far from a given.

    If Britain revokes Brexit altogether what kind of EU member will they be. They might even send a larger number of Farage types to the European Parliament.

    Maybe it will be possible to cancel Brexit altogether but it will take time to heal wounds both in UK and between Uk and EU.
    This also damages anglo Irish relations.

    Why did they ever call the referendum?


    The best outcome for Ireland is for Brexit to be cancelled, followed by the softest of Brexit, followed by May's deal.

    Anything else is a disaster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭SimonTemplar


    Bercow is no fool. He would have known not selecting the amendment ruling out a 2nd ref would be met with criticism and would have been well prepared to defend his decision.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭s3rtvdbwfj81ch


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    Next stage in the shambles:- Berexit?

    he's supposedly due to retire this summer!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,197 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    As a result of yesterday's vote Lidington and Gove both have hinted that if things run up to a deadline ART 50 might be withdrawn.
    May be a bluff to push the ERG but is probably also true.

    Govn't want a third bite at May's Deal next week. If it fails then indicitive votes. The majority in the House might not at this stage agree with that plan.


This discussion has been closed.
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