Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Imreoir2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

There is a fundemental difference between the position of Ireland within the EU and the position of a US state. Ireland is a member of the Union by choice, has an equal say in the running of the union with every other member and can leave by choice at any time. The last time a state tried to leave the US, their leaders eventually found themselves in prison with the threat of execution for treason over their heads.

It is worth remembering that at independence, the US consisted of 13 states, over time as the pioneers moved west, the new states that were created elected to join or in some cases such as Alaska were bought from their previous owners, plus a war with Mexico to gain some southern states. Quite different to how the EEC was created, which was formed to prevent war in mainland Europe ever again breaking out between the (western) central powers of Europe.

Laois_Man

I note The Observer claim to have seen a leaked document that the EU have completely lost all regard for T May (what? only now???) and is preparing its strategy for a soon to be new PM.

They also lay out the conditions that the EU will set for an article 50 extension. e.g. the May must agree that neither her nor her successor will want a say in EU planning over the duration of their extended membership. There is worry that the UK might get an extension until June 30th, then they do not take part in the EU elections in May, but then at some point in between the EU elections and June 30th, they decide to revoke article 50, leaving the EU in chaos!

They also say some Torys are agreeing to back May's deal on the condition that she announces she is going during the Summer

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/eu-war-gaming-for-fall-of-theresa-may-government

Laois_Man

Laois_Man wrote: »

I note The Observer claim to have seen a leaked document that the EU have completely lost all regard for T May (what? only now???) and is preparing its strategy for a soon to be new PM.

They also lay out the conditions that the EU will set for an article 50 extension. e.g. the May must agree that neither her nor her successor will want a say in EU planning over the duration of their extended membership. There is worry that the UK might get an extension until June 30th, then they do not take part in the EU elections in May, but then at some point in between the EU elections and June 30th, they decide to revoke article 50, leaving the EU in chaos!

They also say some Torys are agreeing to back May's deal on the condition that she announces she is going during the Summer

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/eu-war-gaming-for-fall-of-theresa-may-government

If a General Election is forced on the UK (before June, assuming an extension is allowed) by a vote of no confidence or some other government reaction to how well (:rolleyes:) the negotiations are going, then all bets are off.

Imreoir2

Deleted User wrote: »

It is worth remembering that at independence, the US consisted of 13 states, over time as the pioneers moved west, the new states that were created elected to join or in some cases such as Alaska were bought from their previous owners, plus a war with Mexico to gain some southern states. Quite different to how the EEC was created, which was formed to prevent war in mainland Europe ever again breaking out between the (western) central powers of Europe.

Which is part of the reason that the EU is fundementally different to the US and Ireland's place in the EU is not analogous to that of a US state.

Strazdas

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It is a sad indictment on the uk really.

They had no clue what they were actually voting for apart for a visceral thing.

So here we are. Extensions and so on.

I honestly cannot get my head around it TBH.

"Leaving the EU" was always an abstract concept being pushed by that old fraud Farage in past years. Where the UK totally lost its marbles was in holding a referendum on leaving and not even having a plan to leave scribbled out on a scrap of paper. What could possibly go wrong.

Laois_Man

Deleted User wrote: »

If a General Election is forced on the UK (before June, assuming an extension is allowed) by a vote of no confidence or some other government reaction to how well (:rolleyes:) the negotiations are going, then all bets are off.

I think what they are expecting is that May will be in charge until withdrawal comes into effect, and then be replaced by a new Tory party leader, without any general election!

Very few MPs will do anything to bring about a general election right now - there's a good chance it would be the largest mass sacking of MPs the UK has ever seen!

Headshot

robindch wrote: »

Today, Farage started his 435-km (270m in miles sterling) "Brexit Betralay" walk from Sunderland to London in the wind, the rain, beside a cliff and with something between 65 and 70 people taking part.

Hard to know which part failed the hardest - the dreadful weather, the miserable turnout or the troll lorries circling Farage

But for clarity, Greg Jenner's tweet is going to be hard to beat:

https://twitter.com/greg_jenner/status/1106937127705677824

That truck needs to following Farage everywhere.

Infini

Deleted User wrote: »

If a General Election is forced on the UK (before June, assuming an extension is allowed) by a vote of no confidence or some other government reaction to how well (:rolleyes:) the negotiations are going, then all bets are off.

I would say the odds would be at that stage would be along the lines of "Dont let your áss hit the door on the way out". There comes a point where it's simply gonna be better to just let them suffer the consequences of their own incompetent stupidity for being so utterly arrogant and stupid and just concentrate on both containment of the damage in the EU and looking after those Brit's living in EU states who have been affected by their governments coillective idiocy.

Headshot wrote: »

That truck needs to following Farage everywhere.

It's a portable búllshít detector! Should be used to basically highlight the utter hypocracy of these tools 24/7 until they finally shut up with their deceptive BS.

An Claidheamh

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/1106946793097646081


It's a minor point but I also raised an eyebrow at that statement. Ireland is not a "State", it's supposed to be a sovereign country.

I wouldn't mind if he started acting more like the leader of a sovereign country rather than a mouthpiece for Brussels all the time. :rolleyes: He can do that and still protect Ireland's position.

He's a mouthpiece because pig headed British reporters ask him and need to be told information by him.

Explain what else he could or could not do?

By the way, "Guido Fawkes" aka Paul Staines has Irish citizenship and passport.

Yet he's another fella making money out of flag waving serfs in UKslavia.

No one pointing that out on twitter... but why would they?

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brewing-up-a-political-blogging-storm-1.530526?mode=amp

Brexiters are truly the dregs of society

An Claidheamh

Working class heroes wrote: »

I’d say you are in a very small minority of people with that view. IMO.

So does Kermit and the British believe that for the last forty years their PMs were regional governors of the EU with no independence, (even when Britain was still robbing countries of their independence)?

If so, how come they're only mentioning about Ireland now?

Alternatively, they're powerless jingoists, worse they're stupid powerless jingoists, worse they're stupid powerless jingoists who are begging Ireland for favours and insulting them at the same time.

Gonna be fun in two weeks when the "great British public" turn on the Tories and denounce them as traitors.

I'll have my popcorn ready.

Enzokk

Der Speigel has a scathing article on May.

The Prime Minister of Humiliation

Yes, that is the headline and the article doesn't get easier for May. There is this part which should sting any person when it is said about them.

"She is mean. She is rude. She is cruel. She is stupid. I have heard that from almost everyone who has dealt with her," Parris says. He said he had never expected this much hatred, "and that is not a word I use lightly."

The worst thing, though, he says, is May's inability to win over others to her position, to compromise and to lead. "It's crazy," says Parris. "That someone like her would end up in a job where the most important thing is to communicate, answer questions, make decisions. That is, I believe, more of a psychological than a political problem."

That seems to correspond with her actions and also her work at the Home Office. No compassion and cruelty and a stubbornness that makes it almost impossible to work with the opposition.

I still think she gets her deal through this coming week, but I think that is going to cause more chaos than we are expecting. No-one likes the deal and whoever takes over from her, the bargain to get her deal through will be for her to resign, will look to dismantle it as quick as possible and the damage from that will be just as bad, if not worse, than just ripping the plaster off right now.

Joe_ Public

Enzokk wrote: »

Der Speigel has a scathing article on May.

The Prime Minister of Humiliation

Yes, that is the headline and the article doesn't get easier for May. There is this part which should sting any person when it is said about them.



That seems to correspond with her actions and also her work at the Home Office. No compassion and cruelty and a stubbornness that makes it almost impossible to work with the opposition.

I still think she gets her deal through this coming week, but I think that is going to cause more chaos than we are expecting. No-one likes the deal and whoever takes over from her, the bargain to get her deal through will be for her to resign, will look to dismantle it as quick as possible and the damage from that will be just as bad, if not worse, than just ripping the plaster off right now.

History is going to be particularly savage on her i believe. Not because she is cruel or unpopular but because she is indeed stupid and chronically unfit for high office. Remember “trousergate” when she blithely donned 2000k worth of designer gear for a soft focus newspaper spread that was supposed to show her connection to the working man and woman? That just proved how out of touch she was as well as the advice she was getting.

From the day she took office lots of people, including her own top civil servants in brussels, were warning her that they were on a collision course with chaos the route they were going. Her response? Get rid or silence them and surround herself with lickspittles who only told her what she wanted to hear.

Worst britsh pm ever probably, certainly since the war anyway.

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Worst britsh pm ever probably, certainly since the war anyway.

Surely her predecessor was worse, no?

He was repeatedly warned against calling the referendum to placate his backbenchers and his party's right. But because he won a similar gamble in 2014 and because he was a PR man with little interest in actually leading the country or building a vision of it he chose to gamble again.

Chamberlain in fairness didn't vote for the second world war. He secured an accord with a foreign leader which he expected would be honored. Hindsight 20:20 and all that.

Cameron on the other hand enabled the public to vote for this crisis and then scarpered. It's an entirely British creation.

Tell me how

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Surely her predecessor was worse, no?

He was repeatedly warned against calling the referendum to placate his backbenchers and his party's right. But because he won a similar gamble in 2014 and because he was a PR man with little interest in actually leading the country or building a vision of it he chose to gamble again.

Chamberlain in fairness didn't vote for the second world war. He secured an accord with a foreign leader which he expected would be honored. Hindsight 20:20 and all that.

Cameron on the other hand enabled the public to vote for this crisis and then scarpered. It's an entirely British creation.

He did create the mess. But, for sheer ineptitude across the whole range of leadership duties, May probably takes the gold.

Calling a GE, placating hard brexiteers, publishing of red lines, invoking article 50, selection of cabinet ministers, PR appearances, DUP bedfellows, tone to the EU and potential allies.

And, receiving a special award for being so bad that you still lag in the polls to Theresa May is, Jeremy Corbyn.

Water John

Looks like LB will offer to abstain on her Deal in return for a 2nd Ref. I presume this would be after her 3rd defeat on Tues/Wed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/17/labour-plan-commons-vote-second-referendum

I haven't seen Corbyn on Sophie Ridge this morning.

I also suspect after it's 3rd defeat, Bercow will be of a mind not to allow a 4th vote unless circumstances change significantly. The will of Parliament has at some point to be accepted by Govn't.

gooch2k9

Dr. Fox telling Sky the vote could be pulled if it looks liekt they're going to lose.

Corbyn signalling a vote of no confidence if vote goes ahead and is rejected again.

Link.

Water John

So 3rd vote may or may not be held. I presume either way LB will then move a no confidence motion. If that fails, they offer to abstain. May would have to take that to the EU Council meeting. May will be forced by the EU to accept the offer.

Akrasia

The Guardian are reporting that Labour are going to officially back the Kyle Wilson amendment that would support Mays deal on the condition that it is put to a confirmatory referendum with an option to cancel Brexit.

If this gets a 3 line whip with labour and a few tories and the tigers support it I think it could be close to passing.

The EU will grant an extension to allow a referendum. They will probably require UK participation in the EUPARL elections. TM and the ERG will rant and rave about another referendum being undemocratic but the opposite is clearly the case.

Shelga

Akrasia wrote: »

The Guardian are reporting that Labour are going to officially back the Kyle Wilson amendment that would support Mays deal on the condition that it is put to a confirmatory referendum with an option to cancel Brexit.

If this gets a 3 line whip with labour and a few tories and the tigers support it I think it could be close to passing.

The EU will grant an extension to allow a referendum. They will probably require UK participation in the EUPARL elections. TM and the ERG will rant and rave about another referendum being undemocratic but the opposite is clearly the case.

Interesting. So what form will the question be on the referendum? May’s deal or Remain? People who want no deal will be outraged, but they are either conmen or morons.

The public at large certainly do not appreciate the fact that if they go ahead with Brexit, it will absolutely dominate the political landscape for the next 5-10 years. Normal policy business will carry on being ground to a halt, like it already is now. There’s no room for anything but Brexit.

Shelga

Shelga wrote: »

Interesting. So what form will the question be on the referendum? May’s deal or Remain? People who want no deal will be outraged, but they are either conmen or morons.

The public at large certainly do not appreciate the fact that if they go ahead with Brexit, it will absolutely dominate the political landscape for the next 5-10 years. Normal policy business will carry on being ground to a halt, like it already is now. There’s no room for anything but Brexit.

Not entirely true, immediately after Thursday's Brexit debate in the HOC there was another debate on housing, probably with only a handful of MPs remaining to debate it. A lot of other business is so overshadowed, anything could he voted through unopposed, when it should have the full attention of parliament.

Capt'n Midnight

robindch wrote: »

Today, Farage started his 435-km (270m in miles sterling) "Brexit Betralay" walk from Sunderland to London in the wind, the rain, beside a cliff and with something between 65 and 70 people taking part.

....

But for clarity, Greg Jenner's tweet is going to be hard to beat:

twitter.com/greg_jenner/status/1106937127705677824

The Troll-Puddle Martyrs , oh that is just so good.



The view from Germany
https://www.dw.com/en/nigel-farage-leads-pro-brexit-march-to-london/a-47946402

A small group of Brexiteers are marching (and taking the bus) to London to voice their outrage at British lawmakers. Nigel Farage is leading the group but has admitted he'll only cover a third of the trek.

...
The location of the starting point had to be changed last minute for what organizers said were security reasons. The group was nonetheless met with pro-EU protesters, singing a song telling them where they could shove Brexit. The marchers responded by calling the counter-demonstrators "traitors" and losers."

Joe_ Public

Considering how critical a role the wording played in the referendum, worth up to 4 % points to leave depending on who you believe, there’s surely going to be the mother of all dogfights before the wording of a proposed second one could be agreed, assuming it was more than a straight yes or no to the pms deal. Love the idea of it, but it does bring some risks with it.

Leroy42

So what is the situation with no deal after last weeks vote? They have voted against no deal at any time, yet no deal remains on the statute. Surely following the vote the parliament now has to amend the Withdrawal Act to remove the option of No Deal.

And if they do, then doesn't that mean that they either have to accept TM deal or delay Brexit.

I know it was non-binding but AFAIK TM had stated she would abide by the votes. Seems to me that there was a no vote, but nothing actually changed

Water John

Govn't have said, if necessary as they get near withdrawal date and no decision, they will take action to ensure UK doesn't crash out, as per HOC vote.

I'm ok once crash out is off the table. The present scramble in Parliament doesn't over bother me once that is followed through on.

gooch2k9

Water John wrote: »

Govn't have said, if necessary as they get near withdrawal date and no decision, they will take action to ensure UK doesn't crash out, as per HOC vote.

I'm ok once crash out is off the table. The present scramble in Parliament doesn't over bother me once that is followed through on.

Any reason they can't implement it in law immediately? Colour me distrustful but this government have form for not living up to their promises.

Joe_ Public

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is the situation with no deal after last weeks vote? They have voted against no deal at any time, yet no deal remains on the statute. Surely following the vote the parliament now has to amend the Withdrawal Act to remove the option of No Deal.

And if they do, then doesn't that mean that they either have to accept TM deal or delay Brexit.

I know it was non-binding but AFAIK TM had stated she would abide by the votes. Seems to me that there was a no vote, but nothing actually changed

You said it yourself: it was non binding. I guess just increases the moral pressure on the hoc not to succumb to no deal but you wouldn’t hang your hat on that. Same with the ind group amendment on second referendum last week. Just cos that went down in flames doesn’t mean it has gone away either.

Sam Russell

Joe_ Public wrote: »

You said it yourself: it was non binding. I guess just increases the moral pressure on the hoc not to succumb to no deal but you wouldn’t hang your hat on that. Same with the ind group amendment on second referendum last week. Just cos that went down in flames doesn’t mean it has gone away either.

As was the referendum that is causing all this nonsense. It is undemocratic to hold a second referendum, but it is democratic to put the same vote to the HoC multiple times when it has been defeated by the highest ever vote on a Gov motion.

ShooterSF

It would be nice if the EU only offered an extension in exchange for the UK giving up any right to unilaterally revoke article 50. There should be a cost to going back to being a participating member after the crap they've caused.

CelticRambler

ShooterSF wrote: »

It would be nice if the EU only offered an extension in exchange for the UK giving up any right to unilaterally revoke article 50. There should be a cost to going back to being a participating member after the crap they've caused.

I think the recently leaked EU document shows that they're way ahead of the UK in terms of forward planning and strategising for various worst-case scenarios.

Irishmale0399

Reports in the German press today that Nigel F is lobbying Italy to block the extension. German MEP seems to think the Italians may oblige.

Akrasia

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Reports in the German press today that Nigel F is lobbying Italy to block the extension. German MEP seems to think the Italians may oblige.

Definition of Treason according to the cambridge dictionary
"the crime of) showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason

The 5 star movement in Italy are aligned with Putin and Russia are international advisaries of the UK with fundamentally opposing interests.

Trying to lobby for your own governments requests to be vetoed internationally sounds like treason to me

Irishmale0399

Akrasia wrote: »

Definition of Treason according to the cambridge dictionary
"the crime of) showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason

The 5 star movement in Italy are aligned with Putin and Russia are international advisaries of the UK with fundamentally opposing interests.

Trying to lobby for your own governments requests to be vetoed internationally sounds like treason to me

If I am honest I couldnt care less what its called. At this moment in time all I can see are a group of clowns who are trying to line their own pockets in one way or another. Added to that the HoC couldnt manage to send everyone home drunk if they were to hold a meeting in a brewery with the taps running and glasses ready......they would end up fighting about how to hold the glass or look for straws....its a shambles and if anyone in the EU has balls they will send them packing before exposing us all to 2 years more of it.

Akrasia

Corbyn now saying that he wants there to be a 'credible choice referendum' whatever that means.

Is he going to try to put in some new unicorn deal that hasn't been negotiated and therefore doesn't exist onto a ballot paper?

What would his referendum look like? 4 options, May's deal, Corbyn's deal, No Deal and 'remain'?

By splitting the vote, by offering a very soft brexit option, he could split the remain vote and make Mays deal or No deal more likely to win...

Joe_ Public

Akrasia wrote: »

Definition of Treason according to the cambridge dictionary
"the crime of) showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason

The 5 star movement in Italy are aligned with Putin and Russia are international advisaries of the UK with fundamentally opposing interests.

Trying to lobby for your own governments requests to be vetoed internationally sounds like treason to me

Quite right. Is the tower still in business? Stop short of public execution on ppv tv, though, let’s not create a martyr!

Seriously though, what chance is there of the italians defying the other 26 on this? Would there not be consequences for them in that event, no deal would be horrendous for them surely? Could see them putting out the threat alright just for the heck of it, but seeing it through is another matter.

Akrasia

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

If I am honest I couldnt care less what its called. At this moment in time all I can see are a group of clowns who are trying to line their own pockets in one way or another. Added to that the HoC couldnt manage to send everyone home drunk if they were to hold a meeting in a brewery with the taps running and glasses ready......they would end up fighting about how to hold the glass or look for straws....its a shambles and if anyone in the EU has balls they will send them packing before exposing us all to 2 years more of it.

The UK has already voted to rule no deal. If the EU refuse to grant an extension or only grant one with conditions the HOC will not accept then the HOC may have no choice but to vote to withdraw A50 on 29th of March

Akrasia

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Quite right. Is the tower still in business? Stop short of public execution on ppv tv, though, let’s not create a martyr!

Seriously though, what chance is there of the italians defying the other 26 on this? Would there not be consequences for them in that event, no deal would be horrendous for them surely? Could see them putting out the threat alright just for the heck of it, but seeing it through is another matter.

There is such a short time available for negotiations, the Italians could just stall for time or push for conditions that they know the HOC won't accept and they could effectively veto the extension without calling it a veto

Capt'n Midnight

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

the HoC couldnt manage to send everyone home drunk if they were to hold a meeting in a brewery with the taps running and glasses ready......they would end up fighting about how to hold the glass or look for straws....its a shambles and if anyone in the EU has balls they will send them packing before exposing us all to 2 years more of it.

The thing is you can't hold a píss up in a brewery these days unless you have completed a full risk assessment, filled in the forms and gotten public liability insurance, organised sober attendants etc etc

Like Brexit it's not something you can do on the fly, it needs lots of preparation

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

Definition of Treason according to the cambridge dictionary
"the crime of) showing no loyalty to your country, especially by helping its enemies or trying to defeat its government"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treason

The 5 star movement in Italy are aligned with Putin and Russia are international advisaries of the UK with fundamentally opposing interests.

Trying to lobby for your own governments requests to be vetoed internationally sounds like treason to me

Take the power back, by lobbying foreign governments to go against your own government. It's remarkable that it isn't being highlighted more.

ancapailldorcha

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Take the power back, by lobbying foreign governments to go against your own government. It's remarkable that it isn't being highlighted more.

I put that down to the tiny few men who own most of the British media being pro-Brexit.

Capt'n Midnight

Akrasia wrote: »

The UK has already voted to rule no deal. If the EU refuse to grant an extension or only grant one with conditions the HOC will not accept then the HOC may have no choice but to vote to withdraw A50 on 29th of March

JRM rubbed it in during the points of order after the vote.

It was non binding despite what a lot of the press said, which says a lot for the quality of reporting these days.

Roanmore

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1107214750532947968

Think Farage's credibility may be shot after this.

Irishmale0399

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The thing is you can't hold a píss up in a brewery these days unless you have completed a full risk assessment, filled in the forms and gotten public liability insurance, organised sober attendants etc etc

Like Brexit it's not something you can do on the fly, it needs lots of preparation

On the fly...they have had 2 years. Not our problem that May fcuked up.

Akrasia wrote: »

The UK has already voted to rule no deal. If the EU refuse to grant an extension or only grant one with conditions the HOC will not accept then the HOC may have no choice but to vote to withdraw A50 on 29th of March

They have voted in the HoC for a lot recently...


1. They dont want Mays deal
2. They dont want it again
3. They dont want to leave with the WA...(knowing the EU have made it clear..its Mays deal or no deal...)
4. They voted they dont want a hard Brexit.....


They are so arrogant that they dont realise its the WA or nothing....so accept it and get on with it. If not revoke A50 and get back to being a full member and stop crying.

ancapailldorcha

Roanmore wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1107214750532947968

Think Farage's credibility may be shot after this.

Nearly 10,000 times that number marched in London.

I mean, this is the Brextiers' man. They've lapped up his soundbytes and lies and now he can't be bothered to do his own march.

Roanmore

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nearly 10,000 times that number marched in London.

I mean, this is the Brextiers' man. They've lapped up his soundbytes and lies and now he can't be bothered to do his own march.

There's another clip on Twitter by Led By Donkeys where the billboards are quoting Farage and you can see by his face he's thinking "Oh ****"

Edit: Here it is

https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1107036923938435078

PropJoe10

Roanmore wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1107214750532947968

Think Farage's credibility may be shot after this.

Wasn't aware he had any credibility before it, honestly.

Roanmore

Roanmore wrote: »

There's another clip on Twitter by Led By Donkeys where the billboards are quoting Farage and you can see by his face he's thinking "Oh ****"

Edit: Here it is

https://twitter.com/davemacladd/status/1107036923938435078

I think it's more a sign that many of the leave voters, feel utterly betrayed and defeated that they can't be bothered to protest. The next General Election will be very interesting.

ancapailldorcha

Tell me how wrote: »

He did create the mess. But, for sheer ineptitude across the whole range of leadership duties, May probably takes the gold.

Calling a GE, placating hard brexiteers, publishing of red lines, invoking article 50, selection of cabinet ministers, PR appearances, DUP bedfellows, tone to the EU and potential allies.

And, receiving a special award for being so bad that you still lag in the polls to Theresa May is, Jeremy Corbyn.

Yeah, sure.

I can't disagree here but look at the potential alternatives. Johnson? Davis? Redmond? For all her flaws May seems to have at least one foot on the ground while members of her cabinet has compared the EU to the soviet union and described inquiries into child sex abuse in the party to "Spaffing" money on a wall.

I mean, when someone can't manage such a basic task as condemning child molestation, how would they negotiate with the world's largest and wealthiest trading bloc.

Tell me how

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah, sure.

I can't disagree here but look at the potential alternatives. Johnson? Davis? Redmond? For all her flaws May seems to have at least one foot on the ground while members of her cabinet has compared the EU to the soviet union and described inquiries into child sex abuse in the party to "Spaffing" money on a wall.

I mean, when someone can't manage such a basic task as condemning child molestation, how would they negotiate with the world's largest and wealthiest trading bloc.

There's no question but that there is a derth of talent at the top of both main parties in the UK.

And I've posted here before how I think maybe the reason May took on the role was because she strongly felt that the vote had to be upheld and also that none of the alternative candidates could have by any measured been expected to have been more capable than her to deliver some form of Brexit which didn't have them jumping off of a cliff. And the ironic thing is that they all know this given how JRM never contended for leadership, Johnson pulled out of the race and they voted to support her just a few weeks ago.

A very interesting topic of conversation is just how bad their FPP system has been in creating this type of environment and how many of the people who are behaving abysmally throughout this election will likely still be there after the next one.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's more a sign that many of the leave voters, feel utterly betrayed and defeated that they can't be bothered to protest. The next General Election will be very interesting.

I would say there is also a huge amount of "Brexit fatigue" going on. Even those who are still in favour of leaving the EU are probably thoroughly sick of Brexit at this stage and would just wish the topic would go away.

Joe_ Public

Definitely agree for all her ineptitude, the palatable alternatives to TM are few and far between. I think she took the job because it was a lifetime ambition for her and that was a fatal flaw, because the imperative for her became doing everything she needed to keep that position as opposed to what was the common good. Beyond being leader, she had no vision. Nobody knew her or what she stood for. For her, tagging on to the right wing of her party made sense as a means of bolstering her power and authority. Or so she calculated at least.