Discovery 2x08 "If Memory Serves"

TheValeyard

This could be very good....or very bad.

Interested to see what they do with the Talosians.

I think re-warching 'The Cage' will be in order tonight and possibly The Menagerie.

We might get to see what actually caused General Order 7.


Edit: could a kind mod please add 'If Memory Serves' to the thread title

Edit 2: thank you kind Mod.

Spear

Progress on the Red Angel at least, with them explicitly saying it's a human, but that only supports the possibility of it being Burnham.

Still very little info on the nature of the real enemy though.

I think the series would have been better served if these plot points had come sooner though.

The Dr Culber thread is taking a darker and unexpected turn though. And I was amused by the Pike/Saru chat that followed.

liamtech

OK! That was Quality!!! In my opinion anyway! - SPOILERS!!!

I gave out last week about how uneasy the season was proceeding but again im gonna just take this episode individually - and it was VERY GOOD IMHO

THE CAGE: Lovely to see the Star Trek Pilot Lead in - that was TOTALLY unexpected but very welcome:)

The Talosians and Vena - Yea again i expected it to be messed up, but it was very well done - the sound on the surface was identical to that of the cage - The Talosians were interesting. Fantastic deception at the beginning - a black hole that wasnt actually there! and Vena!! Still there, still alive, and waiting for the Menagerie - alone yet not alone - and the Talosian help, for a price! Very interesting. Also the communication to Pike -

Their Make-up was fine aswell - i had no issue with that - im not a stickler for makeup changes though i accept some are

Pike -Yea again it felt very good to see that. I really enjoyed the ready room scene with Vena

Colber and Ash/Voq Again im shocked cause i wasnt that interested in this part of the plot. Pretty decent though i enjoyed it. Entirely believable that a resurrected guy would not be able to simply reintegrate into his normal life!

Arium Obviously only subtle hints but given it was the only bit of the last episode that i enjoyed, i was pretty happy with that

The Red Angel/Overall Plot slowly advancing, and open to possibilities now. REALLY REALLY hoping it isnt Burnham - is it POSSIBLE its Picard - with a possible tie in to the New show??? Or someone else we know - ?? They are obviously trying to avert catastrophe, and the 'true enemy' has yet to reveal itself

Section31 aside from the fact they are VERY WELL KNOWN and out there, i thought it was ok this week. Behaving very Sloan-like, and Leiland is getting shafted by her imperial highness quite a bit it seems - also 31 is run by an AI????? Interesting -is the AI the 'true enemy'? This could lead to 31 being officially disbanded perhaps? (the writing this week was impressive so MAYBE they fix the problems overall and push 31 back into the shadows)

Spock and Burnham - Unnecessary, and the only negative of the episode - just wish they were just friends on vulcan as opposed to brother and sister - dont like the idea of Spock discarding his humanity cause of Mary Sue but 'whatever' - on the positive i find it HIGHLY PLAUSIBLE that Spock would mind meld with the Red Angel - that is in keeping with his character - Melded with so many species over the years - V'ger, the Kelvins, the Silicon Lifeform from 'the devil in the dark' , Nomad - Overall Spock was fine in this episode - if only the Talosians had done us all a favor and kept Burnham!!! lol

Really enjoyed this episode, despite misgivings - and i will watch to see what others think - but i rate this HIGH for season 2 of Discovery, and for the show as a whole!

TheValeyard

I thought it was handled very well!

Great intro, very well handled with 'The Cage'.

Very strong episode.

New Spock is played eerily similar to Nimoys when he is not speaking gibberish.

So the Federation is kinda doomed in the future? And our time travelling angel is trying to prevent that? Id say were looking at a future Borg invasion that devastates the alpha quadrant.

The update to Talosian cosmetics worked very well!!

Spook_ie

Just off on a tangent here but could it be possible that Arium is somehow linked to the begining of the Borg?

Edit See that Murray is thinking along similar lines

liamtech

Spook_ie wrote: »

Just off on a tangent here but could it be possible that Arium is somehow linked to the begining of the Borg?

Edit See that Murray is thinking along similar lines

Its possible

Its also possible that S31's 'CONTROL AI' is to blame - consider - i dont think ash was in contact with Leiland - so that means it was Arium - but why would Arium who is obviously infected with some sort of future tech virus, contact s31 - unless the virus/AI wanted to warn its Previous self

DEFINITELY enthusiastic now - that was a decent episode

Although opinion is polarized - already found several reviews - some saying as i did - GREAT EP, others saying it was rubbish

FutureGuy

Phenomenal episode.

PirateShampoo

Best part was seeing the little cleaner robots flying around picking up the mess.

Spook_ie

liamtech wrote: »

Its possible

Its also possible that S31's 'CONTROL AI' is to blame - consider - i dont think ash was in contact with Leiland - so that means it was Arium - but why would Arium who is obviously infected with some sort of future tech virus, contact s31 - unless the virus/AI wanted to warn its Previous self

DEFINITELY enthusiastic now - that was a decent episode

Although opinion is polarized - already found several reviews - some saying as i did - GREAT EP, others saying it was rubbish

Yeah would make Georgiou's comment about AIs taking orders from her in the mirror universe very relevant.

Rawr

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Best part was seeing the little cleaner robots flying around picking up the mess.

Liked that too.
Kind of ties into that time when Riker mentionsed that the ship "cleans itself".
I always wondered what that implied.

Sonics2k

Overall a solid episode, quite enjoyed it.


Love it:

Captains Log: Bam, straight to the point. Quick breakdown on what's going on.

That quick reference to The Cage at the start is great for fans who have no real knowledge of the pilot episode.

I really am enjoying the Doctors story line with his resurrection. Too often TV shows in the past kind of gloss over these things, but Discovery is doing a good job.

Not a fan of it:
Young, bearded handsome bloke Spock. (I know the real ages of Nimoy and Peck aren't much different at the time of first playing the role)

I'm still not sure what timeline we're in. I know they say it's the prime timeline, but a lot of things (tech mostly) just don't line up.

Slydice

That was a really cool episode! Spock, what a legend!
Damn that was cold of Burnham!
Overall the Talos IV story was done well.

Then like.. the Culbur and Tyler story going on!

AND this overall Section 31/Red Angel/Airiam plot. What is that next episode preview about! Going up against 31 and mines.. seems like a really bad idea.

corkie

Opening clips had me thinking I downloaded the wrong show



Melissa George made a good Vena? Knew I recognized her from other shows.

Timeline rewrite explains why we never heard of Michael Burnham in other shows.

Edit: - Also rules out her as the Red Angel, how could she prevent her own death as a child? I known "time wibbly wobbly stuff"

Spear

Slydice wrote: »

AND this overall Section 31/Red Angel/Airiam plot. What is that next episode preview about! Going up against 31 and mines.. seems like a really bad idea.

We have an invasive AI and section 31 depend upon their Control AI. They're due for a fall and the seeds of it are there it seems. The rise and fall of Section 31 may be as much of a story arc as the Red Angel is.

liamtech

Spear wrote: »

We have an invasive AI and section 31 depend upon their Control AI. They're due for a fall and the seeds of it are there it seems. The rise and fall of Section 31 may be as much of a story arc as the Red Angel is.

Yea i think your right - S31 officially disbanded and stricken from the record - its a bit contrived, and you would have at least expected Sisko and co to have some knowledge of a rogue group in the 23rd century - but still - i can live with it!!! Obviously its officially disbanded but really just goes WAY under ground

I also think this is the proper timeline tbh - i know people are annoyed about the technology being more advanced looking but in all honesty - look at NX01 - ok its warp 5, and it has no shields but it looks WAY more advanced than a TOS era Constitution class ship - pads.. phasers.. the general controls

We cannot expect a modern show like discovery, or Enterprise for that matter, to look less advanced than a bridge created in the 60s! anyway thats my thoughts

Johnny Storm

One of the best episodes of Star Trek EVAH!!!!

- Previously on Star Trek
- Hows that beard working for you?
- Say goodbye Spock....

OldMrBrennan83

Best episode of the series so far by a mile.

Goodshape

I thought it was only alright :-/

Parts of it were good I guess. Too much Section 31. I'm trying not to be too bothered by them but they're really embedded in the story now. Black leather wearing """secret""" thugs of the galaxy. And just seemed to be too many plot conveniences going on.

Other parts were alright though.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Did they mention SQL in there somewhere?

Interesting developments in that episode.

AMKC

That was on ok episode.

I actually thought the wrong episode was playing when it started at first.

I really am not into the Stamet's/Caliber story found that all very boring and letting the fight go on on front of what seemed like the whole crew bar Pike in the canteen. Hardly starfleet.

I think both Spock and Tyler with there beards look very scruffy and not so good.

I also still think its silly how much space is wasted in the ship and this episode showed a lot of that. Just look at Stamet's quarters for instance its bloody huge. Hell I would go as far as saying it looks like there is more room in there than on the whole Deck 1 of a Galaxy class ship.

I thought that the admirals that were talking to Leland and Georgia seemed to be very corrupt the way they were talking so nothing new there then.

The Tholosians looked good and Vena was well done and acted.

Ah now we know what Micheal done. That was cold but she done it for the right reason just the wrong way maybe.


The best part was the last 5 to 10 minutes do and now it really gets interesting.

meep

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Did they mention SQL in there somewhere?

Interesting developments in that episode.

Yes, they somehow managed to work in the astoundingly achronistic concept of a probe for 500 years in the future, of a series already set a good deal into the future, attempting to infiltrate the ships computer systems using SQL Injections.

What?

Are the federation running Windows Server 3000 or something?

muckwarrior

corkie wrote: »

Opening clips had me thinking I downloaded the wrong show

Yeah, I thought my Google Home had misheard me and started playing some star trek documentary.

One thing I found disappointing about the episode was the revelation of what Michael had done to Spock to destroy their relationship. It had been built up so much that I thought she must have tried to stick things up his bum or something, but no, she basically said "go away, I don't like you". Seems like the kind of fight that normal siblings would have on a regular basis.

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

I also think this is the proper timeline tbh - i know people are annoyed about the technology being more advanced looking but in all honesty - look at NX01 - ok its warp 5, and it has no shields but it looks WAY more advanced than a TOS era Constitution class ship - pads.. phasers.. the general controls

We cannot expect a modern show like discovery, or Enterprise for that matter, to look less advanced than a bridge created in the 60s! anyway thats my thoughts

People need to get the hell over this, and themselves. It's a show from 2019 prequel or no.


What a fecking episode. Every story line became interesting and moved along.
I could even accept a Birth of the Borg (even though I would prefer not)




Anyone notice that the admirals in "charge" of S31 were each of the founding races. Human, Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite
Was that engineering tech, in the spore room, the original Arium?

Spear

Deleted User wrote: »

Was that engineering tech, in the spore room, the original Arium?

Yup, that's the new character of Lt Nilson that Sara Mitich now plays.

geecee

corkie wrote: »

Melissa George played the part of "Angel" in Home & Away
Could she be the Red angel after spending too much time on the beach in Summer Bay?
(sorry couldn't resist! But thank you Corkie for identifying the actress!

flazio

You've got me thinking Vina with the help of the Tallosians is possibly the Red Angel now.
Also guess what I spotted in The Undiscovered Country movie when I watched it recently? A holographic communicator. So there is precedent for those to be around in this era of time.
It was very good I thought. The updates to the look of Talos 4 and it's inhabitants was very believable and the story was coherent enough.

GSPfan

The producers have already said its the prime timeline, and lets be honest the technology has nothing to do with timelines, its bizarre that this is even a thing. Just ignore it, it’s not a problem.

The opening completely confused me. I remember last year downloading an episode of Lost in Space, the new version, but got an old episode instead and this made me feel like it had happened again. I liked it though. Felt like it was needed as trying to explain the back story within the episode would have been very expositiony.

I liked that episode. I mostly dislike flashback/dream sequence episodes of anything due to how boring it is but the bits thry did here kept it short I thought.

What was with the fish bowl lens thing they were doing in the turbo lift and hallways? I know it’s not really important but it’s like they are trying to make seemingly boring scenes like turbo lift rides and hallway conversations into something cool to look at but I generally found it distracting to the conversation going on.

Optimus Prime

muckwarrior wrote: »

One thing I found disappointing about the episode was the revelation of what Michael had done to Spock to destroy their relationship. It had been built up so much that I thought she must have tried to stick things up his bum or something, but no, she basically said "go away, I don't like you". Seems like the kind of fight that normal siblings would have on a regular basis.

This annoyed me too. She basically did what John litgow did to Bigfoot in the 80s film Bigfoot and the hendersons. “We don’t want you anymore !! “

GSPfan

Optimus Prime wrote: »

This annoyed me too. She basically did what John litgow did to Bigfoot in the 80s film Bigfoot and the hendersons. “We don’t want you anymore !! “

Ha ha ha ha. Of all the references anyone could ever make I never saw this one coming!

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

People need to get the hell over this, and themselves. It's a show from 2019 prequel or no.


What a fecking episode. Every story line became interesting and moved along.
I could even accept a Birth of the Borg (even though I would prefer not)




Anyone notice that the admirals in "charge" of S31 were each of the founding races. Human, Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite
Was that engineering tech, in the spore room, the original Arium?

I couldnt agree more - honestly i would not worry about aesthetics when it comes to star trek - the aesthetics will change depending when a series/movie is created

Here is an example few have noticed!!

Watch star trek 5 (if you can, i know its painful) - and note the bridge - all of the controls are touch screen

Now watch Star trek 6 - all of the controls have been UPGRADED to buttons!!

Also its totally clear that the set used, corridors, engineering, are from the Galaxy Class Enterprise D!!!!

Honestly, until something insane happens in discovery (they encounter the Borg who name themselves - Vulcan or other founding members of the Federation are wiped out- people we KNOW have an impact in future series are killed), then i really think people should assume this is prime time line and just move on!!!

Only my opinion!

As for Section 31's admirals - yea that was interesting - each of the founding members must have had a covert agency like the CIA and they incorporated into S31 of the United Earth

TheValeyard

Star Trek V never happened :D

Although I really liked the bridge in VI

Johnny Storm

I just re-watched it and I still think its excellent second time round

It was a really audacious move to work in "the Cage" like that. It could have gone so badly wrong but IMHO they pulled it off beautifully.
That scene where they cut from Jeffrey Hunter to Anson Mount is just fantastic.
I never previously thought they even looked that much alike? but what an impact that cut has.

"previously on Star Trek" from 50 friggin' years ago ?!?!?!?! Fantastic! :D:D:D

On the other hand - minor nitpick - they refer to the possible end of all sentient life and that "millions" of lives are at risk. Surely they mean trillions / gazillions? More JJ-style dumbing-down? :rolleyes:

CramCycle

Slydice wrote: »

That was a really cool episode! Spock, what a legend!
Damn that was cold of Burnham!
Overall the Talos IV story was done well.

Then like.. the Culbur and Tyler story going on!

AND this overall Section 31/Red Angel/Airiam plot. What is that next episode preview about! Going up against 31 and mines.. seems like a really bad idea.

Can we just sensor the next episode bits?!?

Spear

CramCycle wrote: »

Can we just sensor the next episode bits?!?

I've done so in my quoted text.

The previews really do spoil the next episodes, and I regret watching them. And yet I never learn to stop doing so.

Slydice

Slydice wrote: »

That was a really cool episode! Spock, what a legend!
Damn that was cold of Burnham!
Overall the Talos IV story was done well.

Then like.. the Culbur and Tyler story going on!

AND this overall Section 31/Red Angel/Airiam plot. What is that next episode preview about!

Going up against 31 and mines.. seems like a really bad idea.

For feck sake. This thread is about the episode aired. Why can't you start a thread about the next episode to discuss the preview??

corkie

geecee wrote: »

Melissa George played the part of "Angel" in Home & Away
Could she be the Red angel after spending too much time on the beach in Summer Bay?
(sorry couldn't resist! But thank you Corkie for identifying the actress!

More recently "Marilyn Garbanza" in 'The Good Wife' (2014), probably where I remembered her from.
and "Dr. Alexandra Panttiere" in 'Heartbeat' (2016)

Home and away was her first credit role back in (1993-1996)

GSPfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For feck sake. This thread is about the episode aired. Why can't you start a thread about the next episode to discuss the preview??

Bit rude and also a bit harsh, no?

The preview is technically part of the episode so can you blame anyone for commenting on it. A simple curtesy request to spoiler tag it might get the result you desire as i doubt the poster was intentionally trying to annoy you.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

Bit rude and also a bit harsh, no?

The preview is technically part of the episode so can you blame anyone for commenting on it. A simple curtesy request to spoiler tag it might get the result you desire as i doubt the poster was intentionally trying to annoy you.

It's not part of the episode. It's an extra. Is it after the credits on Netflix?

Not rude, I'm not calling the poster any names, insulting them or such.
Just literally saying "ah feck sake".

People have asked, in previous threads to (at the least) spoiler any information about future episodes, including previews, but here we are again

TheValeyard

It's the agnoy booth for ye!!

ShaneU

As someone who hasn't watched the original series, the Pike/Vina relationship in this episode would have made no sense to me. Didn't even know Pike was in that series at all.

ShaneU

ShaneU wrote: »

As someone who hasn't watched the original series, the Pike/Vina relationship in this episode would have made no sense to me. Didn't even know Pike was in that series at all.

Yeah it does take a lot on faith that you're knowledgeable of the lore.

My wife was lost. We needed to pause for a few minutes to explain

TheValeyard

ShaneU wrote: »

As someone who hasn't watched the original series, the Pike/Vina relationship in this episode would have made no sense to me. Didn't even know Pike was in that series at all.

Emmmmmmm. His future is........interesting

GSPfan

ShaneU wrote: »

As someone who hasn't watched the original series, the Pike/Vina relationship in this episode would have made no sense to me. Didn't even know Pike was in that series at all.

I thought that was the beauty of the starting piece. It reminded people who knew about it but prompted people to go look it up if they didn’t.

fritzelly

Loved the episode, and thought how the intro was done was brilliant

Missed the bit about AI controlling S31 (too much going on), will have to rewatch

Franz Von Peppercorn

fritzelly wrote: »

Loved the episode, and thought how the intro was done was brilliant

Missed the bit about AI controlling S31 (too much going on), will have to rewatch

I think georgiou said in her timeline she was the master of AI, not the reverse. It’s not clear how accurate that is. If you think about it though Star Trek in general (outside discovery) doesn’t make that much use of AI, the odd android or holographic doctor aside.

The onboard Computer is about as useful as Siri. Voice commands for controlling lights, red alerts, finding people onboard and later on the replicator.

The ship is driven by humans and the scientific analysis is largely done by humans.

pixelburp

At first I was a bit underwhelmed by the reveal of what the rift between Spock and Burnham was, but on reflection it kinda worked; it was an emotional scar between siblings, a deep cut at Spock's own insecurities - which worked more than some great Deed or McGuffin.

The Talos throwbacks, Vina included was handled well and the "previously on" was a nice nod to the shows history. Again Pike played a blinder, it'll be a great shame when he gives up the chair as he has given the ship and show much needed decency in its core.

As to the Red Angel / Airium, I'm leaning towards the Borg too at this stage. And here's a hint: way before the show aired there was chatter between 2 FX guys for Discovery, and they spitballed how cool it WOULD be if they redesigned the Borg with modern sensibilities. Came up on the forum here, and I poopooed the idea as just pros having a chat; but as this season goes on i wonder if they actually, accidentally revealed the season 2 Big Bad.

Spear

The flatout annihilation of all organic life doesn't suggest borg to me.

And I hope it isn't. They've already had some fairly major references to past episodes/characters, and I'd prefer they don't fall into the same writing trap that Star Trek Online did, where absolutely everything is connected to everything else in a very contrived manner.

pixelburp

No, the annihilation element does raise a red flag about it being the Borg (that and the ships don't look like spheres).

Another potential, given the time travel element, would be a closed loop situation: a rogue AI from the future that exists because it fell into the past, infected Airium, and caused its own eventual gestation.

pixelburp

Aside from the arc, while the Culber story isn't particularly striking, Anthony Rapps continuing heartbroken, helpless expression is just breaking my own heart.

As I said that subplot doesn't seem to be going anywhere (though I approve of any character beating the snot outta Tyler), but Rapp sells it purely by dint of almost manic desperation. I feel sorry for the guy...

liamtech

pixelburp wrote: »

No, the annihilation element does raise a red flag about it being the Borg (that and the ships don't look like spheres).

Another potential, given the time travel element, would be a closed loop situation: a rogue AI from the future that exists because it fell into the past, infected Airium, and caused its own eventual gestation.

And perhaps it became section 31s control? definitely possible

for me i just hope the red angel doesnt turn out to be Burnham - im more worried about that aspect of the story

Spear

The AI is searching for something that's not revealed yet. And apparently it isn't Burnham since Airiam didn't try and stove her head in at first sight.

Control deciding it eventually knows better and wiping out everyone as a possible threat would also provide grounds for officially shutting down S31, leaving only some diehards going.

I'm kinda curious about whether the short treks play any more into this. The Saru had to have been co-ordinated with main series, as aside from the plot's being in sync, they also used the same sets and prosthetics. And among the short treks was one were a sentient AI was running things with the Discovery left abandoned for a millennium.