Discovery 2x08 "If Memory Serves"

Spear

fritzelly wrote: »

Is that not just the 4 admirals giving them orders, wouldn't make sense to be completely controlled by an AI telling them what to do - such a thing doesn't exist in the future (at least within Starfleet)

They were, but they referred to Control and it's threat analysis system. Georiou then complains about computerised threat analysis, and about taking orders from an AI as a result.

fritzelly

Spear wrote: »

They were, but they referred to Control and it's threat analysis system. Georiou then complains about computerised threat analysis, and about taking orders from an AI as a result.

"Control's threat analysis system" - I wouldn't read too much into it bar maybe something like War Games, Geogious comment comes across as more we did what we wanted and not based on some algorithms predicting the outcome - she was more an action person based on her own insecurities

Blazer

Thought it was a really excellent episode. Whoever wrote this weeks one should be writing the majority of the show. More of this please.

***As I suspected: The writers for this episode had nothing to do with the previous 4-5 episodes and this is the first episode they've written for Discovery.

Writer: Jay Beattie, Dan Dworkin


We need more episodes written by them.

JeffKenna

Best eposide of the season for me. Back to season 1 'must watch' gripping quality.

liamtech

SPOILERS! LEAK CONFIRMS IDENTITY OF CONTROL!



Joking aside it could be an AI that S31 found at some point, and the origin of which could be the future. We know that AI's exist in the star trek universe.. Nomad, V-Ger, etc

for me its less about the AI and more about who is the red angel

My Theory is - the federation is decimated, as is every other power in the galaxy, and with their last bit of power, someone is traveling back in order to prevent disaster, and nudge events to prevent the AI's rise to power - I know its a familiar trope but it works - as long as the Angel isnt Burnham - if its her, im gonna drink heavily to forget the season

pixelburp

What about Stamets or Culber? They both are a little excess to requirements ATM; the former was on his way off the ship anyway, and if the spore drive is retired he becomes unneeded to the show. If it's a sacrificial act to be the Red Angel it'd give the character an out...

CramCycle

Can someone remind me is the virus or the 3 red dots coming from the data dump from the huge alien that died or from the red angel or from S31? I must research the season

From the probe, while it was accessing the systems.

Rawr

liamtech wrote: »

I know its a familiar trope but it works - as long as the Angel isnt Burnham - if its her, im gonna drink heavily to forget the season

I might join you in that Liam.
I fear that this may be the case. In the angel flashback where we see Spock trying to mind-meld with the Red Angel, we suddenly get a flash of Michael mind-melding as well. I read that to suggest that Spock was mind-melding with Micheal at that moment in the flash-back.

I would like to be surprised to find out that it is someone else...but my gut says that they would totally write Micheal to be the Red Angel.

Rawr

pixelburp wrote: »

What about Stamets or Culber? They both are a little excess to requirements ATM; the former was on his way off the ship anyway, and if the spore drive is retired he becomes unneeded to the show. If it's a sacrificial act to be the Red Angel it'd give the character an out...

I think it might be of benefit to write them out at this stage.
Staments has been a bit "off" this season (understandibly, but still he kind of derails most scenes he's in), and I feel that they've been wedging in the spore-drive stuff into plots that didn't really need them.

For example, when they were escaping S31 at the end of the episode, I was surprised that they were about the use the spore-drive for that as their first option. I had assumed they would warp out and save the spore-drive for when regular warp wouldn't be enough. It really didn't feel like thay had gotten to that point yet.

Interestingly, Spore-Culber is reacting in a very understandible way to his situation. Beating the crap out of the guy who guy who killed him, and not being able to automatically just jump back into a relationship with Staments made a lot of sense. I felt that all of Culber's reactions here made perfect sense for his situation.

Goodshape

Not seeing any problem with Stamets as a character. He's a scientist on a science vessel. If anything I'd be looking forward to less spore drive just to see what else he gets up to. Really hope he sticks around.

I mean, if there's "no point" to that character, then what was the "point" of Data, or Dax, or Sulu, or plenty of other crew members. They're just good characters.

Blazer

The problem I have with Stammets is there's no consistency around his character. At the start of the show he was this engineering genius testing a prototype propulsion system unlike anything before it. Next he's a simpering idiot fawning over his ex dead boyfriend while Tilly who came onboard as a cadet is suddenly an engineering genius etc etc. We know Crusher was a genius back in TNG but his skills weren't accelerated that much. Its this whole women wow wow bull**** going around. Its being handled really really badly.
Contrast that with the BSG remake..hell the fanboys were going nuts back in 2002 over women being cast in previous men's roles but at least we barely have forums back then so it never went viral etc. What happened then was the studio didn't fall into the whole women hype and actually have one of the best written sci-fi shows ever..with actual strong, sexy, intelligent female characters who were extremely well written.
I shudder to think how a remake of it would look now.

And ffs..will they ever stop with the lens flare...christ I hate Abrams for what he's done to Star Trek and Star Wars but I can get over that...but pushing lens flare into every scene..that **** is unforgivable.

Maybe stamets is the red angel thanks to the corrupted spore drive and he's lonely like spock said because of culber

What a great episode. Love the stamets culber subplots, brilliant actors.
Intetesting thinking about airiam being the borg

Previously on star trek... Brilliant

AtomicHorror

Blazer wrote: »

The problem I have with Stammets is there's no consistency around his character. At the start of the show he was this engineering genius testing a prototype propulsion system unlike anything before it. Next he's a simpering idiot fawning over his ex dead boyfriend while Tilly who came onboard as a cadet is suddenly an engineering genius etc etc. We know Crusher was a genius back in TNG but his skills weren't accelerated that much. Its this whole women wow wow bull**** going around. Its being handled really really badly.
Contrast that with the BSG remake..hell the fanboys were going nuts back in 2002 over women being cast in previous men's roles but at least we barely have forums back then so it never went viral etc. What happened then was the studio didn't fall into the whole women hype and actually have one of the best written sci-fi shows ever..with actual strong, sexy, intelligent female characters who were extremely well written.
I shudder to think how a remake of it would look now.

And ffs..will they ever stop with the lens flare...christ I hate Abrams for what he's done to Star Trek and Star Wars but I can get over that...but pushing lens flare into every scene..that **** is unforgivable.

Well, at least we agree about the lens flare. That's something. I guess.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I think georgiou said in her timeline she was the master of AI, not the reverse. It’s not clear how accurate that is. If you think about it though Star Trek in general (outside discovery) doesn’t make that much use of AI, the odd android or holographic doctor aside.

Perhaps Control is a hard AI, manipulating events via Section 31 to serve it's own needs in the future. A sort of Roko's Basilisk scenario.

Perhaps we're about to find out why there's no hard AI in Star Trek between the 2260s and the 2330s when Data was built. Maybe AI research was set back decades by a close call with a genocidal machine. It would also neatly allow for S31 to be "disbanded" or otherwise buried.

CramCycle

I took it as a risk analysis thing. Not actually AI as such, it just assessed based on prior events the best place for S31 to intervene to achieve its goals. I thought Georges comments were a ego massage for herself, she never needed to be told how to run an empire, unlike S31 that needed to have analysis done to determine the best course of action

PetKing

AMKC wrote:

I actually thought the wrong episode was playing when it started at first.

I thought the exact same. The Michael / Spock stuff seemed to jump a bit, I thought I missed something.

seamus

pixelburp wrote: »

Aside from the arc, while the Culber story isn't particularly striking, Anthony Rapps continuing heartbroken, helpless expression is just breaking my own heart.

As I said that subplot doesn't seem to be going anywhere (though I approve of any character beating the snot outta Tyler), but Rapp sells it purely by dint of almost manic desperation. I feel sorry for the guy...

I don't know, for the first time it seems like that subplot is serving a good dramatic purpose. The tension between Stamets' euphoria that Culber is back, and Culber's own trouble coming to terms with his "new" life has set up a great dynamic.

They've been careful to illustrate that everything about Culber has changed since he came back. Right from the tiny scar that's now missing from his shoulder, to his overall demeanour.

I think it has added some real character development and emotional investment that hasn't been there for other pairings, such as Burnham & Georgiou and Burnham & Saru.

Blazer wrote: »

The problem I have with Stammets is there's no consistency around his character. At the start of the show he was this engineering genius testing a prototype propulsion system unlike anything before it. Next he's a simpering idiot fawning over his ex dead boyfriend while Tilly who came onboard as a cadet is suddenly an engineering genius etc etc.

It was really hinted at, at the end of the last season. Stamets's trips through the network have completely changed him and his outlook on life. It seems to me that for the most part he's just been wandering around the ship doing his own thing and the only reason he bothers going near the lab anymore is when he's needed for the spore drive.

This seems pretty consistent for someone who has seen it all.

bluewolf wrote: »

Maybe stamets is the red angel thanks to the corrupted spore drive and he's lonely like spock said because of culber

I never thought of that. Seems like a frontrunner theory to me; he's the only one aside from Spock who's been proven to have some extrasensory understanding of time and space.

Maybe the suit is a micro spore drive, allowing the wearer to jump at will, wherever and whenever they want.

Although they had said the corrupted probe was 500 years old, that doesn't necessarily mean it comes from the same time as the Red Angel. I think if it's not Stamets, then I'd be disappointed if it's Picard or Wesley or something, rather than just someone new.

CramCycle

seamus wrote: »

I don't know, for the first time it seems like that subplot is serving a good dramatic purpose. The tension between Stamets' euphoria that Culber is back, and Culber's own trouble coming to terms with his "new" life has set up a great dynamic.

They've been careful to illustrate that everything about Culber has changed since he came back. Right from the tiny scar that's now missing from his shoulder, to his overall demeanour.

I think it has added some real character development and emotional investment that hasn't been there for other pairings, such as Burnham & Georgiou and Burnham & Saru.

I think its great and really a nice twist on an old sci fi story. Typically it will be a clone, or a copy of your memories that gets downloaded into a body or some such similar. The question arises, are you really you. In most cases I always took the view that no, they were not the same person. In this case, as far as I can tell, it is actually his soul, not just a copy, but the body is completely new. Does he think he is like a copy? Is he suffering PTSD from the other place? also the psychological damage, survivors guilt in a weird way, the experience of death, and presumably thinking he was in something akin to hell. Its pretty interesting and hopefully is finished off in a realistic fashion, I cannot see him and Stamets rekindling their love as he has changed to much.

It was really hinted at, at the end of the last season. Stamets's trips through the network have completely changed him and his outlook on life. It seems to me that for the most part he's just been wandering around the ship doing his own thing and the only reason he bothers going near the lab anymore is when he's needed for the spore drive.

This seems pretty consistent for someone who has seen it all.

That was similar to my take on it, the spore drive broke his mind a bit, for a bit I thought they were going to go with him being a Trojan horse from the other dimension but that has disappeared. Even the dinner scene in this episode, Culber notes he never would have made him dinner before and Culber seems shocked that even understanding what he went through that he would do that. Both characters have changed immensely but it seems to have been explained.

I never thought of that. Seems like a frontrunner theory to me; he's the only one aside from Spock who's been proven to have some extrasensory understanding of time and space.

I don't see it unless he has come up with a plan to prevent his own death.

Maybe the suit is a micro spore drive, allowing the wearer to jump at will, wherever and whenever they want.

This is plausible, there was a race talekd about before who could also be in the running considering that they are really playing up to the references to the TOS and canon, mentioned in the general thread I think but the name escapes me.

Although they had said the corrupted probe was 500 years old, that doesn't necessarily mean it comes from the same time as the Red Angel. I think if it's not Stamets, then I'd be disappointed if it's Picard or Wesley or something, rather than just someone new.

In a time loop scenario, it could be built now or soon, and then travels back when sent in a few hundred years.

I hope it is the ship, ghost in the machine after the shorts. I hope the bad guy is just some randomer, maybe it is someone from the other side of the battle the soldier was in.

FreudianSlippers

Always thought the Talosians were pretty boring / silly characters; didn't expect it to feel like anything more than a nod to ToS and a way to get more fanboiis to watch Disco. Was totally wrong and thought particularly (as some others have posted) the previously thing was great. Very strong episode.

Acosta

The first episode that I've re-watched. Thought it was great. Loved seeing Jeffrey Hunter make an appearance. Ended up watching The Menagerie afterwards

FreudianSlippers

GSPfan wrote: »

The producers have already said its the prime timeline, and lets be honest the technology has nothing to do with timelines, its bizarre that this is even a thing. Just ignore it, it’s not a problem.

I was thinking about this... didn't only the original producers say it was the prime timeline, corroborated by the newer team in After Trek... but we don't know they returned to prime?

In prime it would make sense that Burnham left and upset Spock, the red angel never got involved and Spock never mentions Burnham again*. Our Discovery returns to a different timeline. Canon doesn't say what happens to Pike other than he shows up again... eventually... seriously injured. None of the Enterprise crew that go to Discovery are members of Kirk's TOS crew.


*yeah I know about Sybok...