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Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

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    #3512
    Panda Killa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭Panda Killa


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    I think the main point to take away from all this is Cronin waived the B test and admitted guilt to it rather than going through an appeal process, so I'm not sure why people are getting wound up by the decision when it seems the player himself was accepting responsibility....

    Nobody is disputing the results.

    What is in dispute is the fact that the person getting penalised, is the only one in the whole fiasco who relied on the doctor and the pharmacist to do their jobs.
    Somewhere along the line, Cronin was failed...to say he can't rely blindly on the doc is just a complete cop out.
    This could have been a whole lot worse..he could have been given something completely untoward or dangerous...as I said...it seems that Cronin is happy with the explanation from the chemist and that this is just a de facto slap on the wrist.... but again....it's worrying and may lead to closed work between provinces and specific chemists so as not to allow this to happen.. because you can be sure this wouldn't be the first time there's been a whoopsy


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    #3513
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,541 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Read the full judgment. It justifies the month ban.

    https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1252256173362950145?s=19

    That judgement is pretty clear. A big mistake by the pharmacy to make giving steroids to somebody when they are not prescribed. That’s potentially life threatening.

    I’ve had to take that stuff before for being sick with a chest infection, and it’s a great reliever when your chest is bad from infection, but I sure wouldn’t be taking it the day before a match because it can mess your sleep up big time.

    The only question I would have is about the levels of medication detected in the sample and if they are consistent with the amount that is said to be taken? I know nothing about it but maybe someone here does.

    It’s looks like a pretty open and shut case to be fair.


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    #3514
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,212 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Whatever about the suspension and Cronin, I'd have thought that the pharmacy could be in line for some sort of action professionally for this?

    I've never had a prescription messed up, surely a pretty serious f*ck up? Giving the wrong medicine to the wrong person can have a lot more serious impact than someone getting suspended from playing a game.


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    #3515
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Buer wrote: »
    Whatever about the suspension and Cronin, I'd have thought that the pharmacy could be in line for some sort of action professionally for this?

    I've never had a prescription messed up, surely a pretty serious f*ck up? Giving the wrong medicine to the wrong person can have a lot more serious impact than someone getting suspended from playing a game.

    Yes, they should make a complaint if they haven't already done so. The Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland will run an inquiry and it goes from there.

    But Cronin carries a fair amount of blame here.


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    #3516
    mark_jmc
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭mark_jmc


    phog wrote: »
    2004 - Munster played Wasps in Lansdowne Road, it was an epic match, tries from one side countering a try from the other,in the final minutes Munster had Hendo and DOC in the bin and Leota scored in the corner to give them the lead once more, I looked up at the stadium clock and thought great we have time for a comeback but unfortunately I hadn't realised the clock was stopping for match stoppages, it was my first time seeing a stadium clock keeping time with ref so when the ref blew the final whistle I was devastated.

    As an aside I think Leota's try was a knockon but that's another story.

    Got sunburned all on one side of my face that day, also remember being devastated at the end thinking we had time


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    #3517
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    There's a responsibility put on athletes to be extra vigilant with what they put in their bodies. The ban in many ways is harsh, in other ways it's justified.

    That's what makes reading this seem so strange

    Cronin had been unwell before the game and was prescribed the antibiotic, Amoxicillin, which he had been prescribed previously. The team doctor told Cronin he had been prescribed ‘antibiotics’ and didn’t specify the product's name. Cronin had also used the same pharmacy a number of times previously.

    According to a disciplinary decision from European rugby’s governing body, the EPCR, “The pharmacy dispensed medication to him which was intended for another customer.” Cronin instead received Germentin (a trade name for Amoxicillin) and Prednesol, a substance prohibited by the EPCR, which was prescribed for another client of the pharmacy.

    Cronin took five Prednesol tablets in a single dose the day before the game, and four more the morning of the match.

    That's quite the chain of mixs ups

    Cronin didn't read the prescription at all, as it would have listed only one drug.
    The pharmacy gave him two prescriptions.
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.


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    #3518
    SeaFields
    Registered Users Posts: 6,551 ✭✭✭SeaFields


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.

    Not with those. You start off on a big amount and reduce down slowly.


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    #3519
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    That's what makes reading this seem so strange



    That's quite the chain of mixs ups

    Cronin didn't read the prescription at all, as it would have listed only one drug.
    The pharmacy gave him two prescriptions.
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.

    He was following the dosage instructions, by all accounts.


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    #3520
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    That's what makes reading this seem so strange



    That's quite the chain of mixs ups

    Cronin didn't read the prescription at all, as it would have listed only one drug.
    The pharmacy gave him two prescriptions.
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.
    They wouldn't exactly be the kind of thing you'd be happy to take accidentally. When did he find out he shouldn't be taking them? The test result would not be for a while.


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    #3521
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,541 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    That's what makes reading this seem so strange



    That's quite the chain of mixs ups

    Cronin didn't read the prescription at all, as it would have listed only one drug.
    The pharmacy gave him two prescriptions.
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.

    No it’s not.
    It’s typically 5 tablets once a day for three days.
    could be 2 or more for a kid depending on weight and age.


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    #3522
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,541 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    They wouldn't exactly be the kind of thing you'd be happy to take accidentally. When did he find out he shouldn't be taking them? The test result would not be for a while.

    You should read the judgement if your gonna be commenting on it. It’s very clear.


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    #3523
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    That's what makes reading this seem so strange

    That's quite the chain of mixs ups

    Cronin didn't read the prescription at all, as it would have listed only one drug.
    The pharmacy gave him two prescriptions.
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.


    Cronin didn't get the prescription. The doctor emailed it to the pharmacy and told him to go to collect it.

    And the pharmacy didn't give him two prescriptions. They game him the wrong one which contained two medications. It had no patient number or address on it, but the assumption is it was for another James Cronin.


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    #3524
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    That's what makes reading this seem so strange



    That's quite the chain of mixs ups

    Cronin didn't read the prescription at all, as it would have listed only one drug.
    The pharmacy gave him two prescriptions.
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.

    Yeah it's standard for prednisolone. 5 on the first day, 4 on the second, 3, 2, 1, stop.

    But it's a chain of error, oversight and coincidence that we simply would not believe it if happened in France.


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    #3525
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    ...
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.

    No it’s not. Perfectly common dosage for that drug.
    I wish people wouldn’t comment on subjects they know nothing about.


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    #3526
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    ...
    And the pharmacy didn't give him two prescriptions. They game him the wrong one which contained two medications. It had no patient number or address on it, but the assumption is it was for another James Cronin.

    The doctor prescribed one medication;
    Amoxicillin.

    The pharmacy dispensed two products;
    Germentin, which is a brand name used for a combination of amoxicillin (a member of the penicillin family) and clavulanic acid (a medication that interrupts the mechanism by which some bacteria can be resistant to penicillins.)
    Prednisone (a steroid)

    Both of the products actually dispensed were intended for a different patient. One has to assume that the other patient got Cronin’s plain Amoxicillin. It’s highly unlikely that the other patient’s name will ever be publicly released.


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    #3527
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    That judgement is pretty clear. A big mistake by the pharmacy to make giving steroids to somebody when they are not prescribed. That’s potentially life threatening.

    Nearly as life threatening as had he been taking the right medication!

    9 antibiotics in two goes over 24hrs good luck to a liver recovering from that.


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    #3528
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    locum-motion wrote: »
    The doctor prescribed one medication;
    Amoxicillin.

    The pharmacy dispensed two products;
    Germentin, which is a brand name used for a combination of amoxicillin (a member of the penicillin family) and clavulanic acid (a medication that interrupts the mechanism by which some bacteria can be resistant to penicillins.)
    Prednisone (a steroid)

    Both of the products actually dispensed were intended for a different patient. One has to assume that the other patient got Cronin’s plain Amoxicillin. It’s highly unlikely that the other patient’s name will ever be publicly released.

    We do know the other patients name TBF, they're also called James Cronin, and is why this mistake happened.


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    #3529
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,173 ✭✭✭✭phog


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    That's what makes reading this seem so strange



    That's quite the chain of mixs ups

    Cronin didn't read the prescription at all, as it would have listed only one drug.
    The pharmacy gave him two prescriptions.
    The dosage Cronin took is a bit weird too, granted I've never been on steroids of any sort but taking 5 tablets in one go of anythings is very odd.

    You're simply making stuff up you admit you've never been on steroids yet you claim taking 5 tablets in one go is odd when in fact that's how most people going on steroids start their course of medication.

    The judgement clearly stated the doctor emailed the prescription to the pharmacy, why then would Cronin have read it.

    Most of us wouldn't read the prescription or the leaflets contained on the box, we generally trust our doctor and our chemists. However, Cronin is a professional sportsman and the he should be more careful around the taking of medication. That's why he got the ban.


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    #3530
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    KSU wrote: »
    Nearly as life threatening as had he been taking the right medication!

    9 antibiotics in two goes over 24hrs good luck to a liver recovering from that.

    He was in absolutely no danger from either medicine. Maybe some mild stomach upset from the steroid, a bit of fluid retention maybe.

    Amoxicillin is not harmful to your liver and you can shovel pretty large quantities into your body without any real signs of overdose.


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    #3531
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,541 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    connemara man wrote: »
    We do know the other patients name TBF, they're also called James Cronin, and is why this mistake happened.

    How do you know the other persons name?


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    #3532
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    How do you know the other persons name?

    I read it in one of the conclusions or articles. Sorry of the top of my head I can't remember where I read it. But I'm 90% sure that's how the mistake happened.


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    #3533
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,541 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Former Former wrote: »
    He was in absolutely no danger from either medicine. Maybe some mild stomach upset from the steroid, a bit of fluid retention maybe.

    Amoxicillin is not harmful to your liver and you can shovel pretty large quantities into your body without any real signs of overdose.


    Two patients getting the wrong prescriptions is an extremely serious matter. The potential for serious health implications exists. What if somebody didn’t get the right treatment and their illness got worse. What if a high risk person got the wrong medicines? A child, elderly person, recovering patient etc etc.


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    #3534
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,541 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    connemara man wrote: »
    Instead it in one of the conclusions or articles. Sorry of the top of my head I can't remember where I read it. But I'm 90% sure that's how the mistake happened.



    Your 100% has become 90% Pretty quickly.

    The other persons name is redacted from the report.

    What’s it at now? 50%


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    #3535
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Your 100% has become 90% Pretty quickly.

    The other persons name is redacted from the report.

    What’s it at now? 50%

    It's pretty easy to infer given the context of the redactions and also this line from the report:

    "The player saw his name on the product packaging and understandably assumed it was medication prescribed to him by his team doctor".


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    #3536
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Your 100% has become 90% Pretty quickly.

    The other persons name is redacted from the report.

    What’s it at now? 50%

    Not sure what the hostility is about. But anyhoo I re read the report there and I may have put 2&2 together and got 22 the wrong outcome. portion 7.3 says the tablets had the name James Cronin in and I made a mental leap, between a private that and another conversation I was having someone saying mad how there's 2 James Cronin's or something to that effect

    Almost as if mistakes happen


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    #3537
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Two patients getting the wrong prescriptions is an extremely serious matter. The potential for serious health implications exists. What if somebody didn’t get the right treatment and their illness got worse. What if a high risk person got the wrong medicines? A child, elderly person, recovering patient etc etc.

    I didn't say it wasn't serious. I said his life was in no danger. You and the other guy had said it was life-threatening. It wasn't.


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    #3538
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    Former Former wrote: »
    He was in absolutely no danger from either medicine. Maybe some mild stomach upset from the steroid, a bit of fluid retention maybe.

    Amoxicillin is not harmful to your liver and you can shovel pretty large quantities into your body without any real signs of overdose.

    I was being a bit facetious with life threatening however to say it is not harmful to your liver is not entirely true (in rare cases albeit)

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3304646/

    My point was more the fact that anyone taking five tablets of an antibiotic at any one time would surely raise alarm bells in your average person let alone someone who is signed up to adhere to WADA code and would have mandatory anti doping training through the club and IRFU


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    #3539
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,086 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    5 tablets of a steroid (not an antibiotic) as a first dose is perfectly normal, as has been pointed out by other posters.


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    #3540
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    Caranica wrote: »
    5 tablets of a steroid (not an antibiotic) as a first dose is perfectly normal, as has been pointed out by other posters.

    Yes but the point is it wasn’t someone who was on steroid treatment that was supposed to be taking it, it was a player who went to the doctor because they felt unwell and was put on an anti biotic that then consumed 9 tablets in 24 hours without questioning in the slightest.

    Case won’t go to appeal however as WADA don’t have the financial clout to take on big names/sports (Ala Chris Froome our Operation Puerto)


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    #3541
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Former Former wrote: »
    I didn't say it wasn't serious. I said his life was in no danger. You and the other guy had said it was life-threatening. It wasn't.
    As somebody who's allergic to penicillin, it would be life-threatening if I was given a prescription for amoxicillin in error. Granted, I would probably spot it (as I'm careful about these things), but it's a frightening thought if I didn't check before taking them.


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