ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

jmreire

skooterblue2 wrote: »

She is a citizen of ISIL, she can stay there. I dont expect any European country to take her in. In fact if If the Irish government was serious about protecting her citizens, they would dispatch the traitor. She is not a criminal, she is a traitor. What Syria military court does with her is their business.

Its not going to happen like that skooter...as an Irish citizen she will be returned to Ireland.. Now,,,,,if the Irish Government had implemented the EU directive each EU County would make it illegal and a criminal offence for anyone to travel abroad in support of any terrorist organisation.....Lisa would return to Ireland, and from Dublin Airport straight to the Joy...and her Child would be taken into care. If this was the case, then I'm pretty sure that where ever else Lisa might go to, it would not be back to Ireland, if that was the fate that was in store for her. But maybe now, the Govt will act and implement the directive.... better late than never.

joeguevara

jmreire wrote: »

Its not going to happen like that skooter...as an Irish citizen she will be returned to Ireland.. Now,,,,,if the Irish Government had implemented the EU directive each EU County would make it illegal and a criminal offence for anyone to travel abroad in support of any terrorist organisation.....Lisa would return to Ireland, and from Dublin Airport straight to the Joy...and her Child would be taken into care. If this was the case, then I'm pretty sure that where ever else Lisa might go to, it would not be back to Ireland, if that was the fate that was in store for her. But maybe now, the Govt will act and implement the directive.... better late than never.

Doubt she would be taken to the Joy seeing as it's a male prison but I know what you mean. But the EU Directive isn't needed. I posted (a few pages back) that our current Legislation is enough for a conviction for membership of any terrorist organization which ISIS falls into. The issue is proving it but if she is returned she can be detained and incarcerated immediately if it is likely she could incite terrorism, be a threat to others or herself, or try and convert others. I think the fact that she could be on tv which could affect a trial would be enough for pre-trial detention.

Somebody questioned precedent for pre trial detention so here is a paper on it. . http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/80072/IE%20First%20Nationa%20Report.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

But this is unchartered territory. It needs to be dealt with appropriately. But within the Law.

jmreire

joeguevara wrote: »

Doubt she would be taken to the Joy seeing as it's a male prison but I know what you mean. But the EU Directive isn't needed. I posted (a few pages back) that our current Legislation is enough for a conviction for membership of any terrorist organization which ISIS falls into. The issue is proving it but if she is returned she can be detained and incarcerated immediately if it is likely she could incite terrorism, be a threat to others or herself, or try and convert others. I think the fact that she could be on tv which could affect a trial would be enough for pre-trial detention.

Somebody questioned precedent for pre trial detention so here is a paper on it. . http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/80072/IE%20First%20Nationa%20Report.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

But this is unchartered territory. It needs to be dealt with appropriately. But within the Law.

I'm no legal eagle joeguevara ( unfortunalely..... ) which is what you would need to be to decipher the paper you refer to. Nonetheless, I hope that you are right about it !!! According to Former director of military intelligence, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Murphy ( ( see earlier post of mine on the subject )
Who view's Lisa through less than rose tinted spectacles ( might be more than miffed off that an ex-soldier could do such a thing, and he shares no soldierly bond with Lisa) according to him, unless she confesses to any wrong doing while abroad with isis, there is not much (legally ) that the Guards can do, other than keep her under surveillance. He recommends that as she was well able to find her own way out to isis, she should be well able to find her way back...but the fly in this particular jar is her Child......that changes thing's. So hard to know how it will pan out. Earlier in this saga, I was prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt ( we all make mistakes ) but having seen some of the video's and interviews she has since given.......not any more. She is still looking for the perfect Islamic world, ruled under sharia law. and will continue to live as a muslim here in Ireland when she ( or to be more exact if she, and this is still a pretty big "IF" because Al-Hawl camp is a pretty dangerous place) comes back .

joeguevara

jmreire wrote: »

I'm no legal eagle joeguevara ( unfortunalely..... ) which is what you would need to be to decipher the paper you refer to. Nonetheless, I hope that you are right about it !!! According to Former director of military intelligence, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Murphy ( ( see earlier post of mine on the subject )
Who view's Lisa through less than rose tinted spectacles ( might be more than miffed off that an ex-soldier could do such a thing, and he shares no soldierly bond with Lisa) according to him, unless she confesses to any wrong doing while abroad with isis, there is not much (legally ) that the Guards can do, other than keep her under surveillance. He recommends that as she was well able to find her own way out to isis, she should be well able to find her way back...but the fly in this particular jar is her Child......that changes thing's. So hard to know how it will pan out. Earlier in this saga, I was prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt ( we all make mistakes ) but having seen some of the video's and interviews she has since given.......not any more. She is still looking for the perfect Islamic world, ruled under sharia law. and will continue to live as a muslim here in Ireland when she ( or to be more exact if she, and this is still a pretty big "IF" because Al-Hawl camp is a pretty dangerous place) comes back .

It is quite a well written article that explains pre trial detention quite well. From what I got out of it is since the mid 90s the use of pre trial detention has increased. However the main issue here is that the prisons that are used for remand are male only and the dochas (female prison) isn't necessarily set up for it but doesn't preclude it.

But as I said this is unchartered waters here as we have never had a woman returning who allegedly was a member of ISIS. But I think it would probably be used if she returned based on videos of someone who isn't remorseful, likely to try and convert when home and be a threat to herself on others. That is my take from reading legal cases and legal articles. We have the framework and will have to wait and see if used. One thing that is clear is we need to plan for a lot more of these cases and not be firefighting putting the public and the alleged criminals at risk.

Boggles

joeguevara wrote: »

I posted (a few pages back) that our current Legislation is enough for a conviction for membership of any terrorist organization which ISIS falls into.

You posted someones opinion of the legislation from a news article.

It is not clear at all that the legislation currently on the books would apply to her.

They could try and make it apply to her, but of course they would need evidence. Terrorist Activity or Terrorist Linked Activity is pretty clearly defined.

joeguevara wrote: »

The issue is proving it but if she is returned she can be detained and incarcerated immediately if it is likely she could incite terrorism, be a threat to others or herself, or try and convert others. I think the fact that she could be on tv which could affect a trial would be enough for pre-trial detention.

Pre Trial detention is basically a refusal of bail.

It's not really taken lightly. She would need to be arrested and at least sample charged first.

It's not a case of she gets bail or not, she can get bail with conditions, e.g no internet access, no interviews, surrender her passport (if she has one), if she breaks them they can apply for her bail to be revoked.

Patrick2010

Why would she want to come back to Ireland?, sounds like she'd be happier somewhere like Brunei?

"If they want to put an investigation on me, I have nothing to hide.

“The only thing I did was come here and if that’s my crime, like a lot of other people’s, for coming here and realising I made a mistake.

“Life was like back home. You get up in the morning, go shopping, get your stuff, come home, cook your dinner, clean your house.

“This is what we came for, you know. No alcohol, no prostitution, no gays, no anything.

“And for me, I really liked to live in the Islamic State because I never got to see any of this.”

recedite

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Why would she want to come back to Ireland?, sounds like she'd be happier somewhere like Brunei?

The same reason all the European born IS brides want to come back.
Free housing, single mothers allowance, healthcare and education for their IS sprogs.
They went over there as single ladies, to be the breeding stock for the glorious new Caliphate. They shagged IS fighters like rabbits. But now the men are all dead or gone. Their former homes are reduced to bombed out rubble.
Living in a tent in the desert surrounded by screaming kids tends to concentrate the mind.

Boggles

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Why would she want to come back to Ireland?, sounds like she'd be happier somewhere like Brunei?

“This is what we came for, you know. No alcohol, no prostitution, no gays, no anything.

Apart from the no drink she still sounds Catholic.

Like I said previously there is more to this story then we are being told.

Her background doesn't fit with someone who would join a death cult.

Had she served over seas with Irish Defense forces in a peace keeping capacity has it been established?

jmreire

joeguevara wrote: »

It is quite a well written article that explains pre trial detention quite well. From what I got out of it is since the mid 90s the use of pre trial detention has increased. However the main issue here is that the prisons that are used for remand are male only and the dochas (female prison) isn't necessarily set up for it but doesn't preclude it.

But as I said this is unchartered waters here as we have never had a woman returning who allegedly was a member of ISIS. But I think it would probably be used if she returned based on videos of someone who isn't remorseful, likely to try and convert when home and be a threat to herself on others. That is my take from reading legal cases and legal articles. We have the framework and will have to wait and see if used. One thing that is clear is we need to plan for a lot more of these cases and not be firefighting putting the public and the alleged criminals at risk.

1000% agreement with you on that !!! The law need's to be updated as a matter of urgency,,,,as we are seeing with brexit....we have 1000's of English Citizens claiming Irish Citizenship, which they are legally entitled to through grand parents etc. Just wait for some English ( or other Nationality ) jihadi's doing the same thing when they see how Lisa gets on.

Boggles

jmreire wrote: »

1000% agreement with you on that !!! The law need's to be updated as a matter of urgency,,,,as we are seeing with brexit....we have 1000's of English Citizens claiming Irish Citizenship, which they are legally entitled to through grand parents etc.

Careful, Do want to give Mick McCarthy a stroke?

jmreire

Boggles wrote: »

Careful, Do want to give Mick McCarthy a stroke?

:rolleyes::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

ToBeFrank123

If she's returning to continue to live a life as a hardline Islamist or raise her child that way, no thanks, stay where you are.

If she returns to embrace western values then by all means come back.

Somehow I believe it will be the first version and if so, either the brainwashing runs deep or she is/was an active ISIS participant.

jmayo

Gatling wrote: »

Have to say for someone supposedly suffering she's looking very healthy and looked after

A bit like yer man that was tortured and starved whilst in jail in Egypt. :rolleyes:

Boggles wrote: »

Apart from the no drink she still sounds Catholic.

Like I said previously there is more to this story then we are being told.

Her background doesn't fit with someone who would join a death cult.

Had she served over seas with Irish Defense forces in a peace keeping capacity has it been established?

You really do try hard with the whataboutery.
I guess you have nothing better to do over there in Kosovo.
BTW is the government still trying to stop the Saudi's fundamentalising the place ?

What you don't clarify is that whilst the staunch catholics might not like gays, unlike the crowd that yer wan Smith was running with (to use her own turn of phrase) the catholics don't recommend fooking them off rooftops to their deaths.

But you damn well know that.

Also nice try at trying to insinuate that there is some deeper reason behind her running off to join "a crowd".

Next thing we know you will be telling us she was a deep cover plant by a top secret Irish military unit.

If we going all conspiracy theories then mine is that EOTR is sitting on your lap.

Boggles

jmayo wrote: »

You really do try hard with the whataboutery.
I guess you have nothing better to do over there in Kosovo.
BTW is the government still trying to stop the Saudi's fundamentalising the place ?

What you don't clarify is that whilst the staunch catholics might not like gays, unlike the crowd that yer wan Smith was running with (to use her own turn of phrase) the catholics don't recommend fooking them off rooftops to their deaths.

Jaysus, calm down there chuck, did you miss the smiley face?

Boggles wrote: »

Apart from the no drink she still sounds Catholic. <

---

goat2

This woman was a well travelled and mature person,
I am wondering what took her to that place in the first place,
was it to support ISIS or was it because of someone she met in another country,
Did it say that she was also with someone before that had died also,
Given her age and the fact that she had army training, I would be cautious of her

Fr_Dougal

Some of the foreign women housed with Ms Smith, in an excluded section of the camp, are known to frequently riot.

The women are described as "radical" by camp workers and security personnel.

Interesting that she’s been kept with some of the more radical women, I wonder why...

Signore Fancy Pants

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Interesting that she’s been kept with some of the more radical women, I wonder why...

Because she's totally bodacious of course!

And rad!

c.p.w.g.w

I'm sure the Irish Rangers are capable of carrimg out black ops...they might be able to solve the Miss Smith problem

jmreire

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it is an interesting question as to whether she is covered. If she was being held by syria then she would be covered as syria are signatories. The kurds are not signatories though i suspect they are just playing nice and letting the red cross in.

Hassakah, where there are 5 different camps ( Inc. Al-Hawl, which is for women, and where lisa Smith is kept,the other 4 are for different "elements" of isis ) is in Syria, so as you point out,it's not a problem for the Red Cross to work there.

jmreire

Gatling wrote: »

If .

so your not sure



Thought she was an emigrant ?

Who ever said that she was an emigrant??? She was nothing of the sort...she was a full fledged isis member.
Like everyone else, I cannot say if she was or was not a fighter. Only word we have on that is what she is telling us. So until she arrives back ( if she arrives back) and has a long chat with the Gardai special branch ( and a few other interested parties too !!! ) we wont really know.

end of the road

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I'm sure the Irish Rangers are capable of carrimg out black ops... they might be able to solve the Miss Smith problem

i would imagine that they are very much able to carry out such operations yes . perhapse someone can confirm for definite though.
i would imagine carrying out such an operation in a refugee camp would be against international law however, so it is not going to happen.

jmreire

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its not as simple as "fighter". You have regular armies, militias, Mercenaries, International Brigades and Spies. The latter three classes are either not covered or grey areas.

Skooterblue2, I can tell you now, without a shadow of a doubt...no matter what was their actual job description in isis....Tinker, Tailor, Solder,Spy or anything else that they may have had.....Everyone in the Hassakah Camps, are being looked after by the International Committee of the Red Cross, and the Syrian Red Crescent.
As in this case in Syria, once the fighting has stopped, soldiers injured or not are considered Non-Combatants. Non active (civilian population ) are considered "vulnerable" due to the war, and they are also covered by the Conventions.

jmreire

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The red cross would look after anyone. They can deliver care packages and what not. They do not power to pluck "persons of interest" and give them get out of jail cards. That is not what the point is about. The point is that she is SDF/Kurdish custody and she has questions to answer.

Have a chat to anyone who has been in a real conflict on the front line (I have never but a few of my friends have been), they will tell different. They will tell you, you do what you need to do, the Geneva convention doesnt apply when you are dead.

Quote :- Have a chat to anyone who has been in a real conflict on the front line (I have never but a few of my friends have been) Unquote.
Skooter, any harm in asking you which wars and front lines you friends have experience in? Just curious.

jmreire

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Interesting that she’s been kept with some of the more radical women, I wonder why...

Of course, and especially with isis,,,women would not be allowed mix with non-related males, but in this case, I think that all the women in Al-Hawl camp are foreigners.....that is from any Country in the World.. except Iraq or Syria. And that is why they are segregated,,,,, they all hold ( or have held probably non-Arab nationality ) And as such....there will be a trail leading to them, and question's asked later on about them. So they are being treated differently.

jmreire

Dale Doback wrote: »

Because she's totally bodacious of course!

And rad!

Nope....she is in Al-Hawl camp, which is for women, but all these women are "foreigners" and that's why they are kept separate. They have ( or had) passports from many different Country's world wide, but not Syrian or Iraqi, I think. So there is a trail leading to them...and there will be questions asked later on.

jmreire

How Germany handles ex-isis returnees:
Jennifer Wenisch is on trial in Germany accused of war crimes while a member of isis in Mozul, Iraq. She is charged with allowing a 5 year old Yazidi child to die of thirst out in the sun. They ( herself and her husband) bought the Yazidi child and it's mother at a slave auction, and they ill-treated them both, with the child dying. She is the 1st woman returnee to be charged, so I would guess that male isis member's will already have been charged?
She faces the following charges:
Murder.
Murder as a War Crime.
Membership of a terrorist organisation,
Violations of the German War Weapons Control Act.
If convicted, she faces a maximum term of Life Imprisonment.
Now that's what I call a proper response !!! Go Germany, Go !!

inforfun

!!! Go Germany, Go !!

Dont forget -Angela Wir schaffen das- Merkel made it very easy for those isis ***** to travel back in Europe in the slipstream of millions of "refugees"

Fr_Dougal

inforfun wrote: »

Dont forget -Angela Wir schaffen das- Merkel made it very easy for those isis ***** to travel back in Europe in the slipstream of millions of "refugees"

When she initially refused to take the refugees there was public outcry. She later changed her mind due to public pressure.

inforfun

Oh, she was set up for sure here: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoFDzUfjNys )
But there is a middle way somewhere between no refugees and to what she did in the end.

Fr_Dougal

Interesting article on how it all unfolded: https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-look-back-at-the-refugee-crisis-one-year-later-a-1107986.html