Poaching on RTE

Kat1170

Ear to the Ground at 13:10 on RTE this Sunday. Piece about Gardai tackling wildlife crime. Also available on the RTE player.

archer22

Kat1170 wrote: »

Ear to the Ground at 13:10 on RTE this Sunday. Piece about Gardai tackling wildlife crime. Also available on the RTE player.

It has reached plague proportions all over the country.

But then on the other hand it's the Gardai who issue those poachers with firearm licences.

gozunda

archer22 wrote: »

It has reached plague proportions all over the country.
But then on the other hand it's the Gardai who issue those poachers with firearm licences.

Theres being legal and there's the usual lot ...

Most of the these individuals do not use guns in my experience. Lurchers and other dawgs are usual. Nothing legal about their activities.

Asking them to desist isn't worth most peoples property

The ones illegally shooting deer etc don't bother with licences or asking for permission ...

archer22

gozunda wrote: »

Theres legal hunting and there's the usual lot ...

Most of the these individuals do not use guns in my experience. Lurchers and other dawgs are usual. Nothing legal about their activities.

Asking them to desist isn't worth most peoples property

The ones illegally shooting deer etc don't bother with licences or asking for permission ...

Well on the programme the Guards showed a .243 rifle and also warned their members to bear in mind the poachers they might encounter were likely to have such firearms.

Now a .243 is not something you can just walk into a gunshop and buy without having the relevant paperwork from An Garda Siochana.

gozunda

archer22 wrote: »

Well on the programme the Guards showed a .243 rifle and also warned their members to bear in mind the poachers they might encounter were likely to have such firearms.

Now a .243 is not something you can just walk into a gunshop and buy without having the relevant paperwork from An Garda Siochana.

Gangs are known for coming in vehicles by boat (Ferries) especially for deer. Some of these have threatened landowners and others when encountered. So no I reckon the majority of weapons used for this type of activity are not legally held

Plus there are many illegal firearms in this country often related to drug dealing and criminality. Those boys aren't worried about getting firearms licences either.

Grizzly 45

Watch it on real player and waste 10 mins of your life.
It is an utter shambles. Pictures of a room full of bored out of their trees Gaurds being lectured about lurcher gangs,bird catchers,and deer poachers.[Did you know you can catch falcons with glue traps??:rolleyes:] Then we have the intrepid guards standing out in a checkpoint in the dead of night someplace, saying that they are a deterrent,as poachers will inform each other via social media that they are in an area. Oh yeah a .243 Blaser with a silencer and torch stuck on the top of it is "the poacher's weapon of choice":rolleyes:

Must be good money in it alright, if you can afford 3/4 k worth of rifle to poach.
So good it is on par with drug dealing apparently. And we can see from the report of the deer shot in the Phoenix Park last Jan, NPWS got appx 55 euros per carcass for 60 culled Fallow. Yeah, that's Kinahan/Hutch money there alright.

What I got from this is AGS and NPWS are in still in the How to catch poachers 101" class,and need a very steep learning curve to be of any use, and that it enforces the opinion that if you take the "easy money" out of this, poaching will drop off very quickly.

gozunda

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Watch it on real player and waste 10 mins of your life.
It is an utter shambles. Pictures of a room full of bored out of their trees Gaurds being lectured about lurcher gangs,bird catchers,and deer poachers.[Did you know you can catch falcons with glue traps??:rolleyes:] Then we have the intrepid guards standing out in a checkpoint in the dead of night someplace, saying that they are a deterrent,as poachers will inform each other via social media that they are in an area. Oh yeah a .243 Blaser with a silencer and torch stuck on the top of it is "the poacher's weapon of choice":rolleyes:

Must be good money in it alright, if you can afford 3/4 k worth of rifle to poach.
So good it is on par with drug dealing apparently. And we can see from the report of the deer shot in the Phoenix Park last Jan, NPWS got appx 55 euros per carcass for 60 culled Fallow. Yeah, that's Kinahan/Hutch money there alright.

What I got from this is AGS and NPWS are in still in the How to catch poachers 101" class,and need a very steep learning curve to be of any use, and that it enforces the opinion that if you take the "easy money" out of this, poaching will drop off very quickly.

Grizzly the point was that much of the illegal firearms in the country come in with drugs etc. The drugs are where the monies at. The illegal guns are just that.

J.R.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Pictures of a room full of bored out of their trees Guards being lectured about lurcher gangs,bird catchers,and deer poachers.

Then we have the intrepid guards standing out in a checkpoint in the dead of night someplace, saying that they are a deterrent,as poachers will inform each other via social media that they are in an area.

I saw it and initially though that it was great that the Gardaí were being upskilled and informed of wildlife crimes and what to look for. Something was now being done to stop these crimes. I agree that the majority attending looked bored and uninterested ...pity.

What occurred to me also is how rampant this must now be - if Gardaí & NPWS are running such courses trying to catch up.

The Garda who made the comment about social media also stated that they're best chance of catching somebody was seeing lights shining in the fields in the dark.....I wonder will legitimate fox hunters now be harassed every time they venture out with lamp & rifle? We need to hassle the poachers, not the legitimate vermin controllers.

As a start - I think poachers should be made aware that everything will be seized (gun, gear, dogs, vehicle, binoculars , lamp etc.) and there will be a hefty fine...plus anybody lamping deer illegally should never be issued with a firearms licence again.

Cass

I seen the program on RTE and thought it was ok. Not great, but as said above a start.

archer22 wrote: »

But then on the other hand it's the Gardai who issue those poachers with firearm licences.

Once they have a clean background, no previous convictions, etc. they are quite entitled to apply and get a firearm. It's not like the FCA1 has a "Poachers" box to tick. Also the Gardaí do not have a pre-crime division so they can only go on what info they can get from the FCA1, referees, etc.

gozunda wrote: »

The ones illegally shooting deer etc don't bother with licences or asking for permission ...

archer22 wrote: »

Now a .243 is not something you can just walk into a gunshop and buy without having the relevant paperwork from An Garda Siochana.

Taking the two of these together.

As i said above AGS issue licenses for the firearms based on background checks and info on the FCA1. That is the limit of their ability and if they started to refuse licenses based on assumptions, guessing, or "gut feelings" then the majority of people who do not commit illegal acts that are being refused would be up in arms and rightly so.

It also does not address the "legal poachers". I've brought this up time and again but there are those who have the firearms, legally, and have the necessary licenses from the NPWS, yet still shoot at night, out of season, trespass, etc.

Cass

gozunda wrote: »

. So no I reckon the majority of weapons used for this type of activity are not legally held.

With all due respect, and not to be dismissive, but there is no data or stats to support such a statement.

Anyone coming here with the intent to shoot not only have to have a deer license, but the relevant import paperwork, visitor's permit, etc. So even if they came here intending to poach, they have to be somewhat legal. I mean customs, AGS, etc. might seem like they don't do much, but they surely wouldn't miss jeep loads of armed guys coming off the ferries.

Plus there are many illegal firearms in this country often related to drug dealing and criminality. Those boys aren't worried about getting firearms licences either.

Wikipedia list 150,000 illegal firearms in this country. It's based on a formula used in other countries and has no basis in reality or fact. IOW its a pure guess and also it's posted on Wikipedia.

That is true, we know it after seeing the various reports on the news of sub machine guns, and AKMs being used to shoot people on the M50 and in hotels. However the type of weapons they import are not in the least bit suitable for hunting. I mean a drug dealer doesn't import a Glock or AK to go poaching deer. The simple act of being caught with such a gun would lead to an immediate arrest and conviction without any sign or proof of illegal hunting, trespass, poaching, etc.

Plus given the IQ level of those with them, shooting themselves while "cleaning" it, playing Russian roulette with a Glock, etc., i doubt they have the aptitude to actually hunt with them.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Watch it on real player and waste 10 mins of your life.
It is an utter shambles. Pictures of a room full of bored out of their trees Gaurds being lectured about lurcher gangs,bird catchers,and deer poachers.[Did you know you can catch falcons with glue traps??:rolleyes:]

I have to admit i didn't realise there was such money or interest in catching song birds and other Fauna for illegal export. So i learned something from it.

Must be good money in it alright, if you can afford 3/4 k worth of rifle to poach.
So good it is on par with drug dealing apparently. And we can see from the report of the deer shot in the Phoenix Park last Jan, NPWS got appx 55 euros per carcass for 60 culled Fallow. Yeah, that's Kinahan/Hutch money there alright.

At first i thought the figure of €500 per carcass was absurd. The prices i last heard were around €2.50 per kilo for Red, €1.80 for Fallow and €1.50 or so for Sika. Giving the average weight per animal i thought the max would be around €250 for Red, €110 for Fallow and €70 for Sika.

However they say Black Market so i assume it's not sold through game dealers and some are selling direct to end users who pay two to three times the price per kilo and can still sell in on for three to four times the price they paid.

What I got from this is AGS and NPWS are in still in the How to catch poachers 101" class,and need a very steep learning curve to be of any use, and that it enforces the opinion that if you take the "easy money" out of this, poaching will drop off very quickly.

As said above it's not only deer poaching, seemingly, and while taking the easy money aspect out of it for deer would help it will not eliminate it completely and will not address the other aspects of wildlife poaching that is completely illegal already.

Cass

gozunda wrote: »

Grizzly the point was that much of the illegal firearms in the country come in with drugs etc. The drugs are where the monies at. The illegal guns are just that.

As above bringing in Glocks, handguns, Uzis, AKs, etc. are pointless for hunting and an offence in itself. If a lad is stopped at night with a hunting rifle, lamp, etc. and no deer he can walk. A lad is stopped with a handgun, AK, etc. an it's an immediate offence.

J.R. wrote: »

I saw it and initially though that it was great that the Gardaí were being upskilled and informed of wildlife crimes and what to look for. Something was now being done to stop these crimes. I agree that the majority attending looked bored and uninterested ...pity.

True on both counts, but then again i've looked the same on courses i've attended.

What occurred to me also is how rampant this must now be - if Gardaí & NPWS are running such courses trying to catch up.

We all know it happens, but as you said if they are now tackling this head on then it must be much worse than any of use actually know.

I also agree that its good to see something being done, and while it's slightly ineffective it's early days and hopefully the AGS/NPWS stick to their guns (excuse the pun) and it spreads to other districts/areas.

The Garda who made the comment about social media also stated that they're best chance of catching somebody was seeing lights shining in the fields in the dark.....I wonder will legitimate fox hunters now be harassed every time they venture out with lamp & rifle? We need to hassle the poachers, not the legitimate vermin controllers.

I don't think it'd be harassment, but i've been stopped a few times while fox hunting and asked about what was in my Jeep, what i was doing, etc. but i don't getted pissed. I'd sooner be "inconvenienced" for a short while and know something is being done.

I mean we cannot complain about poaching then also complain when checkpoints are established to try and combat it.

As a start - I think poachers should be made aware that everything will be seized (gun, gear, dogs, vehicle, binoculars , lamp etc.) and there will be a hefty fine...plus anybody lamping deer illegally should never be issued with a firearms licence again.

That would be the courts. The sentences handed out are too lenient at times and whatever about the monetary penalties you are right in that the cases i've read about have left the offender with their car/van/jeep, firearms, etc.

gozunda

Cass wrote: »

I seen the program on RTE and thought it was ok. Not great, but as said above a start.Once they have a clean background, no previous convictions, etc. they are quite entitled to apply and get a firearm. It's not like the FCA1 has a "Poachers" box to tick. Also the Gardaí do not have a pre-crime division so they can only go on what info they can get from the FCA1, referees, etc. Taking the two of these together.As i said above AGS issue licenses for the firearms based on background checks and info on the FCA1. That is the limit of their ability and if they started to refuse licenses based on assumptions, guessing, or "gut feelings" then the majority of people who do not commit illegal acts that are being refused would be up in arms and rightly so.It also does not address the "legal poachers". I've brought this up time and again but there are those who have the firearms, legally, and have the necessary licenses from the NPWS, yet still shoot at night, out of season, trespass, etc.

Cass wrote:

With all due respect, and not to be dismissive, but there is no data or stats to support such a statement.Anyone coming here with the intent to shoot not only have to have a deer license, but the relevant import paperwork, visitor's permit, etc. So even if they came here intending to poach, they have to be somewhat legal. I mean customs, AGS, etc. might seem like they don't do much, but they surely wouldn't miss jeep loads of armed guys coming off the ferries.Wikipedia list 150,000 illegal firearms in this country. It's based on a formula used in other countries and has no basis in reality or fact. IOW its a pure guess and also it's posted on Wikipedia.That is true, we know it after seeing the various reports on the news of sub machine guns, and AKMs being used to shoot people on the M50 and in hotels. However the type of weapons they import are not in the least bit suitable for hunting. I mean a drug dealer doesn't import a Glock or AK to go poaching deer. The simple act of being caught with such a gun would lead to an immediate arrest and conviction without any sign or proof of illegal hunting, trespass, poaching, etc.
Plus given the IQ level of those with them, shooting themselves while "cleaning" it, playing Russian roulette with a Glock, etc., i doubt they have the aptitude to actually hunt with them.

Going by the amount of illegal firearms in the country as reported in the media and reports in this area of intimidatory poaching carried out by various gangs both ethnic and from abroad - I'd say we have a bigger problem than you seem to believe.

These guys don't come in on the ferry brandishing their guns either. That would be plain stupid but I believe this happens on a fairly regular basis.

Also illegal arms are a frequent bonus used by drug dealers. These guns can and are used by associates for a wide variety of uses including poaching. Guns seized in association with drug dealing include shotguns and high powered rifles and not as suggested only 'glocks and sub machine guns'. What is seized is only the tip of the iceberg imo.

A quick search online shows a number of such seizures

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/icrime/drugs-and-arms-haul-in-limerick-78763.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/video-gardai-seize-guns-and-3m-worth-of-heroin-in-dublin-362205.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda%C3%AD-say-arms-haul-in-cabra-linked-to-drug-gang-1.1199721

archer22

I think the obvious first step is to greatly increase the numbers and resources of OPW wildlife rangers to match the scale of the problem.

Unlike most Guards those guys do genuinely try to do their jobs but are woefully thin on the ground and working with minimal resources.

Courts also need to take the problem seriously...and whoever is buying poached wildlife need to be tracked down and face serious consequences.

A few token checkpoints, while welcome, are not going to make any serious dent on the problem.

I would also add that Coillte need to up their game and take responsibility for what goes on in their forests as many times the problem is originating from there.
Surely it would be no great financial burden on them to employ security guards to randomly patrol their properties to counter this problem and also the issue of illegal dumping while they are at it.

grassroot1

The points that annoyed me from the program was the subtle inference that fox snaring was illegal (snares shown on a table with illegal traps)
That all trapping was illegal and anyone with a rifle and lamp at night was engaged in poaching.
There was a short piece (NPWS LECTURE) on a larsen trap but no explanation that It was perfectly legal if used for the correct reasons.

So perhaps we should watch it again from the point of view of someone that is not from the hunting/conservation community......

Grizzly 45

gozunda wrote: »

G
A

lso illegal arms are a frequent bonus used by drug dealers. These guns can and are used by associates for a wide variety of uses including poaching. Guns seized in association with drug dealing include shotguns and high powered rifles and not as suggested only 'glocks and sub machine guns'. What is seized is only the tip of the iceberg imo.

SERIOUSLY???Do you know what one of those guns cost on the black market?? Try about 4 K for a Glock 9mm new in the grease, double that for an AK type rifle, and the sky is the limit for any special order type gun,if it can be got.

Black market prices are NEVER cheaper in anything than the normal market. Those guns mentioned in the article[, rather historical events now, going by the dates on those links] were STOLEN firearms off gun owners here in the Republic, not imports.
You wouldn't last very long in the underworld here, handing out highly expensive firearms imported at great risk,to let Anto and Joxer off into the wilds to go deer poaching. They get caught, what's the chance they will turn rats on you to the Guards? Or decide to bump you off one day?Or flog the gun to someone else down in the pub?No,we aren't here in the Gang banga,"pop a cap in yo ass !" East LA gang culture where guns are more easily available and every Homie do be carryin who be in da gang!" Even though it seems to be like that in Dublin these days.:pac:

Why would you import a BA rifle, which is a specialist tool, and unless you happen to have an ex-military sniper on your gang list, is worthless for assaniation here when an AK or MAC 10 would be much more effective that you can give to any scumbag who you have paid and drugged up enough to do a hit?
The risk Vs the gain in deer poaching here in Ireland for a high-grade professional criminal involved in drugs,would be sheer stupidity and not worth the game.
Lower level trash involved in selling ten spots down outside the school,or badger baiting or dog fighting, maybe.

Cass

gozunda wrote: »

Going by the amount of illegal firearms in the country as reported in the media and reports in this area of intimidatory poaching carried out by various gangs both ethnic and from abroad - I'd say we have a bigger problem than you seem to believe.

That is not actual data.

AGS don't know the amount of illegal or unlicensed firearms in the state so there is no stats on the matter.

These guys don't come in on the ferry brandishing their guns either. That would be plain stupid but I believe this happens on a fairly regular basis.

I know they don't "brandish" them, but they cannot simply sail in with a boot load of guns.

Also illegal arms are a frequent bonus used by drug dealers.

We only have news reports to go on so again there are no stats on the types or numbers of these guns.

These guns can and are used by associates for a wide variety of uses including poaching. Guns seized in association with drug dealing include shotguns and high powered rifles and not as suggested only 'glocks and sub machine guns'.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/icrime/drugs-and-arms-haul-in-limerick-78763.html

This was 11 years ago and i say that because it was in 2009 the new act and new regulations for getting a firearm came into existance. Using this example it only says high powered rifles. An AR is a high powered rifle. An AK is a high powered rifle. It didn't say they were Blaser, CZ, Sako or anything hunting orientated so we cannot assume what they actually were.

I'm not, as said above, dismissing your point that such firearms could and probably are held by people involved in criminality, but when it comes to the likes of gangland shootings i'm sure the criminal element would prefer a semi auto or "spray and pray" type weapon over a three/four shot bolt action Blaser.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/video-gardai-seize-guns-and-3m-worth-of-heroin-in-dublin-362205.html

Most likely something from a house or shop raid (IOW they were gained from robbing someone's house or business). Which leads me back to my point that if they were caught out and about with these then it's an immediate offence and they can be arrested.

The issue with poaching is the ability for people to deny any involvement because they don't have the carcass in their vehicle, can claim to be shooting for foxes, etc. Once they have a gun license it's impossible to say they were poaching.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda%C3%AD-say-arms-haul-in-cabra-linked-to-drug-gang-1.1199721

Again form 2007 well before the introduction of newer, stricter laws on possession of a firearm.

Please understand i'm not saying "ordinary" firearms are not used by drug dealers and that level of criminals, but it's more common among lower level criminals. By that i mean a lad that poaches is a criminal and may use his 223 for killing deer. He may be licensed on the 223 but it's an illegal act.

This should be treated differently from a drug dealer that gets his hand on a stolen hunting rifle, and for some reason decides he wants to go hunting deer with it. He is illegal in every aspect from no gun license, to stolen gun, to no deer license, etc.

IOW they are two different aspects of the same type of crime and my money is on the former being more prevalent than the latter.

Cass

archer22 wrote: »

I think the obvious first step is to greatly increase the numbers and resources of OPW wildlife rangers to match the scale of the problem.

Surely it would be no great financial burden on them to employ security guards to randomly patrol their properties to counter this problem and also the issue of illegal dumping while they are at it.

I agree with everything you said, but the one downfall is, as you mentioned, money.

No rangers in entire counties, no resources, no additional finances, etc. It all means no real, substantive, opposition to the criminality.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

At first i thought the figure of €500 per carcass was absurd. The prices i last heard were around €2.50 per kilo for Red, €1.80 for Fallow and €1.50 or so for Sika. Giving the average weight per animal i thought the max would be around €250 for Red, €110 for Fallow and €70 for Sika.

However they say Black Market so i assume it's not sold through game dealers and some are selling direct to end users who pay two to three times the price per kilo and can still sell in on for three to four times the price they paid.

Nope on the black market, like blood diamond dealing, the producers.IE the ten-year-old kid in Sierra Leone sifting river gravel or the poacher in Ireland, get paid THE LEAST for the most work. Plus, It's not every restaurant that will feature venison on its menu,so it is also seasonal, and very perishable as well. You cant stockpile carcasses like you can a few K's of Coke.

So unless it is a "shoot to order." for some dubious restaurant, which is illogical in itself too, as it would be cheaper to buy it legit. It still comes down to the GD's paying whatever miserable price per carcass and making huge profits off the strip, tender and oysters of the carcass. The rest is just so much 2nd-grade sugar to them. Ergo that price quoted is utter BS,but sounded good in the programme.

As said above it's not only deer poaching, seemingly, and while taking the easy money aspect out of it for deer would help it will not eliminate it completely and will not address the other aspects of wildlife poaching that is completely illegal already.

True, but there was also some gross misinformation in there too.IE the NPWS bloke saying you catch peregrine falcons with glue traps.:rolleyes: It might happen,but is it a common occurrence? A falcon is an expensive bird alright, but unless you have some sheikh lined up to take it off your hands immediately,IE a "steal to order"job. What are you going to do with it? Advertise it on Donedeal, eBay and Craigslist??:)

Thats what irked me about this.There were four different problems of wildlife crime,and they were mulching it all together as if it was one and the same and adding sensationalism and misinformation.

tac foley

In both Canada and the USA, getting caught shooting deer or any other game animal out of season, or with the wrong type of equipment for the season, means getting everything you have getting confiscated right there, leaving you with the clothes that you are wearing to stop you getting cold. That means, guns of any kind [including the handgun you might be carrying for close protection], bows, binoculars/rangefinders and so on, and your vehicle and everything in it.

The Park Service officer/forest ranger will give you a lift back to civilisation, but that's usually to the local police HQ to do the paperwork. Thereafter it's over to you... how you get home is not his problem.

As the son of a friend in Washington state discovered a few years back, that can cost you not only the vehicle you haven't yet paid for, [in his case, a $38K Dodge with front and rear winches and a cool 10k-worth of amateur radio gear ] but around $8000-worth of high-end hunting gear. Ah, did I mention the fine? $10,000 for the first offence, rising steeply to jail thereafter.

In the Western provinces of Canada, BC and AB there is an automatic first-time fine of $10,000 plus seizure etc.. If your card can take the hit, the authorities will take it off your card right there.

And BTW, having two carcasses when you have only one tag, or the wrong animal for the tag, to take is also a no-no big-time, and can be almost as bad as the above case. Most folks can tell a bear from a moose or a deer from a bear, but it's amazing what happens when buck fever hits.

Needless to say, your vehicle and equipment insurance goes through the roof thereafter, often following you around, as Dale discovered, from one side of the USA to the other. He is now a former hunter, and likely to be for the rest of his life.

Grizzly 45

IdahoF&G ran an "Illegal hunt/poaching pricelist " display at this year's SHOT show. Showing price tags of poached trophy deer,that they had recoverd And they were very "Dear"alright.40 thousand,25 thousand,120 thousand dollar range of fines and legal bills,not to mind jail time etc.
They don't fuk about in the US with this sort of stuff.http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2014/dec/08/idaho-poaching-spree-ends-jail-100000-fines/

gozunda

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ASERIOUSLY???Do you know what one of those guns cost on the black market?? Try about 4 K for a Glock 9mm new in the grease, double that for an AK type rifle, and the sky is the limit for any special order type gun,if it can be got. Black market prices are NEVER cheaper in anything than the normal market. Those guns mentioned in the article[, rather historical events now, going by the dates on those links] were STOLEN firearms off gun owners here in the Republic, not imports.You wouldn't last very long in the underworld here, handing out highly expensive firearms imported at great risk,to let Anto and Joxer off into the wilds to go deer poaching. They get caught, what's the chance they will turn rats on you to the Guards? Or decide to bump you off one day?Or flog the gun to someone else down in the pub?No,we aren't here in the Gang banga,"pop a cap in yo ass !" East LA gang culture where guns are more easily available and every Homie do be carryin who be in da gang!" Even though it seems to be like that in Dublin these days.:pac:Why would you import a BA rifle, which is a specialist tool, and unless you happen to have an ex-military sniper on your gang list, is worthless for assaniation here when an AK or MAC 10 would be much more effective that you can give to any scumbag who you have paid and drugged up enough to do a hit?
The risk Vs the gain in deer poaching here in Ireland for a high-grade professional criminal involved in drugs,would be sheer stupidity and not worth the game.Lower level trash involved in selling ten spots down outside the school,or badger baiting or dog fighting, maybe.

Your quotation is all over the place btw. I
What's is your point? I've also heard an account of this from a garda. That some of the guns are being included with drugs shipments as "sweeteners" to seal a deal. So no I don't doubt it. Seems that theres plenty of illegal shotguns and other firearms available to these guys. If they can smuggle in large quantities of drugs shy not firearms as well? Btw I picked three news stories at random. They cover the last decade. But hey believe whatever you like. Ive stated an opinion based on experience and what I've learned from news reports and direct . If you don't like that tough. There you go.

gozunda

Cass wrote: »

I know they don't "brandish" them, but they cannot simply sail in with a boot load of guns..

I've covered most of the rest above btw. First of all who is saying they 'sail in with a boatload of guns' (sic)? Doesn't take an einstein to figure that half a dozen guys in several cars could easily bring in enough firearms to do what they want as I detailed with the foreign groups intimidating locals with regard to poaching. Theres enough hyperbole been bandied around already rather than then suggest that these guys are 'thick' and don't have at least some street smarts to do what they are doing. I get it that you don't see this as likely for some reason.. That's fine its your opinion.

solarwinds

I wish i knew it was that easy to get illegal guns into the country, I can now replace the Glock the AGS destroyed on me. I'll hop on the first boat from Europe with my handgun in the boot and just drive it into the country and sure if I feel like changing it just get the boat back out again. Obviously this isnt a problem.
Sorry but to say there are car loads of poachers coming in on ferries carrying firearms and ammo, hunting illegally and getting back on the boat out of the country with said firearms is a bit of a stretch if you ask me.

zeissman

I know of a good few deer poachers in my area and every one of them is a licenced Hunter.

Benny mcc

zeissman wrote: »

I know of a good few deer poachers in my area and every one of them is a licenced Hunter.

Same here and much worse than that and they call them selves country men

Melodeon

SOT (Somewhat Off Topic):
Can I ask posters to please NOT use the brand name 'Glock' as some sort of convenient shorthand for illegal-weapon-with-no-possible-legitimate-use?

zeissman

Let me give you an example of one poacher in my area.
He drives around at night and uses a thermal hand held unit to spot the deer.
He then takes out his thermal scope add on that clips onto his rifle scope and shoots the deer.
There are no lamps involved. They will usually have a second vehicle to pick up the carcasses.
This guy was boasting that he shot 325 animals last year. This would be all reds so you can imagine how much money he is making.
These guys have firearms licences and deer hunting permits and the carcasses are sold to legitimate game dealers.

Del2005

solarwinds wrote: »

I wish i knew it was that easy to get illegal guns into the country, I can now replace the Glock the AGS destroyed on me. I'll hop on the first boat from Europe with my handgun in the boot and just drive it into the country and sure if I feel like changing it just get the boat back out again. Obviously this isnt a problem.
Sorry but to say there are car loads of poachers coming in on ferries carrying firearms and ammo, hunting illegally and getting back on the boat out of the country with said firearms is a bit of a stretch if you ask me.

I've got the ferry a good few times and I've never been searched, on a motorbike, so could easily smuggle a handgun gun or other illegal items in. Every ferry I was on had a few hundred other vehicles. Before leaving port they only checked a handful and getting off similar amounts. So a disassembled long gun or guns could easily be brought in a car/van/truck/bus, especially since some of the vehicles are bringing in large amounts of other illegal items and getting through. If customs throughly checked every vehicle getting off a ferry, then ferries wouldn't be viable as a means of transport for anyone.

Collie D

gozunda wrote: »

Your quotation is all over the place btw. I
What's is your point? I've also heard an account of this from a garda. That some of the guns are being included with drugs shipments as "sweeteners" to seal a deal. So no I don't doubt it. Seems that theres plenty of illegal shotguns and other firearms available to these guys. If they can smuggle in large quantities of drugs shy not firearms as well? Btw I picked three news stories at random. They cover the last decade. But hey believe whatever you like. Ive stated an opinion based on experience and what I've learned from news reports and direct . If you don't like that tough. There you go.

His point is that while nobody doubts illegal firearms are coming in to the country with drug shipments it's a massive stretch to think that these guns (most likely hand and/or machine guns) are being used for poaching.

Poaching is more likely to be done by someone you know from the local pub with a licensed gun than a “real” criminal who would have a better use for his new toy than a bit of free meat.

gozunda

Collie D wrote: »

His point is that while nobody doubts illegal firearms are coming in to the country with drug shipments it's a massive stretch to think that these guns (most likely hand and/or machine guns) are being used for poaching.Poaching is more likely to be done by someone you know from the local pub with a licensed gun than a “real” criminal who would have a better use for his new toy than a bit of free meat.

In this area we've had problems with groups of foreign guys poaching and intimidating other people shooting etc. These are not local either ie non Irish reg vehicles and known to no-one.. If you've haven't experienced this - then that's good. The Garda here know about it already.

ayagerard

zeissman wrote: »

Let me give you an example of one poacher in my area.
He drives around at night and uses a thermal hand held unit to spot the deer.
He then takes out his thermal scope add on that clips onto his rifle scope and shoots the deer.
There are no lamps involved. They will usually have a second vehicle to pick up the carcasses.
This guy was boasting that he shot 325 animals last year. This would be all reds so you can imagine how much money he is making.
These guys have firearms licences and deer hunting permits and the carcasses are sold to legitimate game dealers.

back in the 80s there was a man i know that payed for building his house out of fox s their best night was 74 fox @ £15 between 3 lads not a bad income on top of the dole and they were out 6 nights a week 1 nov til 1 march
i was in cork last year ,said i would have a look at whats new and get some ammo ,in the shop were 3 non nationals buying viperflex sticks the expensive ones they got one each one chap had a licence for 243 and bought 200 rounds,
felt bad really when my turn came and i was only getting 40 rounds and my 100euro was minced ,the lad behind the counter said more than half his trade fas from non nats ,
well they wont be using the sticks at the range ,or the 243 at rabbits and i would like to see the permission they have from a farmer or land owner these were of eastern decent , between rainbow trout and venison they are living well i think with the rest for the game dealer or restaurant they have a few a few bob in their pocket

nophd08

zeissman wrote: »

Let me give you an example of one poacher in my area.
He drives around at night and uses a thermal hand held unit to spot the deer.
He then takes out his thermal scope add on that clips onto his rifle scope and shoots the deer.
There are no lamps involved. They will usually have a second vehicle to pick up the carcasses.
This guy was boasting that he shot 325 animals last year. This would be all reds so you can imagine how much money he is making.
These guys have firearms licences and deer hunting permits and the carcasses are sold to legitimate game dealers.

Has this poacher been reported?

zeissman

nophd08 wrote: »

Has this poacher been reported?

Of course so but he still Seems to be getting away with it.

Grizzly 45

gozunda wrote: »

Your quotation is all over the place btw. I
What's is your point? I've also heard an account of this from a garda. That some of the guns are being included with drugs shipments as "sweeteners" to seal a deal. So no I don't doubt it. Seems that theres plenty of illegal shotguns and other firearms available to these guys. If they can smuggle in large quantities of drugs shy not firearms as well? Btw I picked three news stories at random. They cover the last decade. But hey believe whatever you like. Ive stated an opinion based on experience and what I've learned from news reports and direct . If you don't like that tough. There you go.

Ok...Whatever...:rolleyes:

aaakev

Ah jasus, my .243 looks exactly like that ".243 poachers rifle with all the bells and whistles"....

i wouldn't mind but superintendent Martin Walker is a guard who is supposedly knowledgeable on firearms! If i was stopped by one of those guards at that attended that training event id probably be done for poaching along with the rest of the lads here who do a bit of lamping!

Grizzly 45

zeissman wrote: »

Let me give you an example of one poacher in my area.
He drives around at night and uses a thermal hand held unit to spot the deer.
He then takes out his thermal scope add on that clips onto his rifle scope and shoots the deer.
There are no lamps involved. They will usually have a second vehicle to pick up the carcasses.
This guy was boasting that he shot 325 animals last year. This would be all reds so you can imagine how much money he is making.
These guys have firearms licences and deer hunting permits and the carcasses are sold to legitimate game dealers.

This is the kind of tool who will get caught eventually because he cant keep his big mouth shut!An undercover sting operation would close him down very quickly,but thats not going to happen here.But that's whats needed to shut down people like this.
He's probably making like anyone else about 1.50 per kg on the carcass.His buyer is making about 400 euro on the carcass.

mulbot

ayagerard wrote: »

back in the 80s there was a man i know that payed for building his house out of fox s their best night was 74 fox @ £15 between 3 lads not a bad income on top of the dole and they were out 6 nights a week 1 nov til 1 march
i was in cork last year ,said i would have a look at whats new and get some ammo ,in the shop were 3 non nationals buying viperflex sticks the expensive ones they got one each one chap had a licence for 243 and bought 200 rounds,
felt bad really when my turn came and i was only getting 40 rounds and my 100euro was minced ,the lad behind the counter said more than half his trade fas from non nats ,
well they wont be using the sticks at the range ,or the 243 at rabbits and i would like to see the permission they have from a farmer or land owner these were of eastern decent , between rainbow trout and venison they are living well i think with the rest for the game dealer or restaurant they have a few a few bob in their pocket

Why could they not be using the sticks for day hunting? If they have a license for a. 243 they obviously have permission from landowners.

Grizzly 45

On the subject of on nationals poaching
If you go thru the HCAP lists of who qualified for their course over the last
six years.Quite interesting to see how many non-Irish names there are there too. When in Rome,an all that.;)

Benny mcc

My friend is Lithuanian and he has a 243 and three permissions, deer license and is mad about shooting. All above board no nonsense. For his birthday everyone gave him money towards a new gun. Don't paint all with the one brush!!

Kat1170

Grizzly 45 wrote:

On the subject of on nationals poaching If you go thru the HCAP lists of who qualified for their course over the last six years.Quite interesting to see how many non-Irish names there are there too. When in Rome,an all that.

Probably a lot of German tourists looking to shoot here due to everything here being so lax compared to back home, or so we're constantly told

Birdnuts

According to a story in the IFG the production of farmed deer in this country has collapsed since 2016 - which begs the question, is wild venison now more popular and is that what is driving current poaching rates??

ayagerard

mulbot wrote: »

Why could they not be using the sticks for day hunting? If they have a license for a. 243 they obviously have permission from landowners.

what i said was i would like to see the permission they had be it from a farmer or a land owner , these were neither Lithuanian polish or Czech either, and if they knocked at your door looking for hot water , i would also like to see your reaction when they left

Grizzly 45

Kat1170 wrote: »

Probably a lot of German tourists looking to shoot here due to everything here being so lax compared to back home, or so we're constantly told

Be very unlike Germans to go around lamping and threatning the locals.

Grizzly 45

Birdnuts wrote: »

According to a story in the IFG the production of farmed deer in this country has collapsed since 2016 - which begs the question, is wild venison now more popular and is that what is driving current poaching rates??

Cheaper option.No need to invest in land,farming,stock,fencing,dealing with the dept of Ag livestock regulations and all the hassle of running a farm and ligit busisness.

mulbot

ayagerard wrote: »

what i said was i would like to see the permission they had be it from a farmer or a land owner , these were neither Lithuanian polish or Czech either, and if they knocked at your door looking for hot water , i would also like to see your reaction when they left

More confused now.

Kat1170

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be very unlike Germans to go around lamping and threatning the locals.

History says otherwise ;):D

Vegeta

aaakev wrote: »

Ah jasus, my .243 looks exactly like that ".243 poachers rifle with all the bells and whistles"....

i wouldn't mind but superintendent Martin Walker is a guard who is supposedly knowledgeable on firearms! If i was stopped by one of those guards at that attended that training event id probably be done for poaching along with the rest of the lads here who do a bit of lamping!

I agree, while poaching deer is indeed a problem I would not like to see night time shooting outright banned because of it and this is exactly what this smells like to me, Gardai trying to influence policy.

The cynical part of me thinks this is deer shooting associations making lots of noise to try and get night time shooting banned. This of course would crap all over people trying to control fox populations at night. It would also just mean more lads using night vision. I also say all of this as a deer hunter myself.

So if you even get a whiff of our own people pushing this, tell them where to go. We do not want more restrictions, it's a difficult enough sport for young people to get into as it is.

We have said it a million times, all the legislation required is in place. Enforcement (funding the guys on the ground) and sensible sentences are what is needed.

Kat1170

Stop game dealers paying cash. The problem will almost disappear overnight.

Also stop scrap metal dealers paying cash, two problems almost wiped out instantly. I say almost because neither will ever be gotten rid of completely.

Grizzly 45

Kat1170 wrote: »

History says otherwise ;):D

Nah,we've changed alot since then,and don't mention the war!:D

Grizzly 45

Kat1170 wrote: »

Stop game dealers paying cash. The problem will almost disappear overnight.

Also stop scrap metal dealers paying cash, two problems almost wiped out instantly. I say almost because neither will ever be gotten rid of completely.

Better idea shut down the buying of wild deer carcasses for a five-year moratorium by game dealers.That will revive the deer farm industry, allow the pouplation of wild to either recover or at least be finally officially counted, and make the "aisey money" merchants move onto their next racket