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ESB eCars

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Are ESB rates fixed. Can we expect any change in their ev charge rates any stage



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,154 ✭✭✭MarkN


    Had pre conditioned and was 11c outside. Didn’t pre condition 36 hours later and it was doing 110kW with 50% SOC. Same type of charger, different location.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,954 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    Apologies in advance if I have this in the wrong thread.

    I wanted to try my hand at charging this evening on a local CCS 100kW ESB charging point.

    I had put 20 euro into my ESB ecar account on Friday when I joined up. I've been charging at home here since though using the 3 pin charger. We have a fairly large solar system so I'm awaiting the installation of a Zappi to compliment it.

    Back on point, the charging station would not permit me to charge as it mentioned there was not enough in my wallet or something like that. Am I correct in thinking then that you need to charge to full when using the CCS100kW ESB charging points?

    I had assumed you could stop and top up what you wanted. Not a biggie as we don't take too many long journeys anways but would be interested to know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Redfox25


    I think the minimum balance is 30 euro, no, you dont have to charge to full on an esb charger, you can charge as little or as much as you want, once you maintain the minimum balance.

    https://esb.ie/what-we-do/ecars/faqs



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,999 ✭✭✭witnessmenow


    I signed up to the app today and I had to top up by €20, no mention of minimums other than that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭eagerv


    I thought the minimum balance had been reduced to €5. They came under a lot of stick a year or so ago when the minimum balance was €20 for a short period.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,999 ✭✭✭witnessmenow



    We definitely paid a €20 top up with no option of changing it when we signed up. The only configurable thing was the auto top up, which defaulted top up by €20 if your balance dropped below €5, but you could turn this off



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,954 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    I went back this morning and the same charger worked fine. Must have been a glitch last night.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭eagerv


    I rarely use them, but if I was topping up it would be with €20. But last year you could not start a charge with less than €5 in your account.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,531 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Are esb network rates fixed for charging or might they adjust them? Curious how it works they seem pretty high



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    As in Ecars or Electric Ireland?

    Ecars seem to review their rates a couple of times a year, at times they seem to track price changes from EI

    With all the suppliers going down I'd expect a drop but it'll probably lag the domestic suppliers by a few months, commercial rates are still pretty high AKAIK

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,367 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    ESB Ecars were actually very sneaky with their price reviews, they reviewed their prices twice in 2022 upwards blaming wholesale prices (set by their sister company ESB) and haven't looked at them since the wholesale prices started dropping. It's blatant profiteering that somehow they are still getting away with



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,195 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    They are getting away with it for two reasons. the main reason is that no one really cares how much public charging costs (to a point tbf) as for most EV owners, nearly all charging is done at home. The second reason is a lack of competition. All providers are in a race to pay for their infrastructure costs as quickly as possible because they may fear their assets could become stranded (especially if huge batteries and revised charging tech becomes the norm). Most chargers are isolated where if you need to charge you currently do not have choice.

    A market where the customer is not price sensitive and where providers need to pay back huge capital costs is one where prices stay high.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,367 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    €1.1bn pre-tax profits

    Not bad going 👍

    I'm sure they couldn't have achieved it without screwing us over



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    As you've been told many times and mentioned in the article

    Its generation and supply businesses are required to operate separately - so increased profits from its generation division cannot be used to subsidise its Electric Ireland business.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,367 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes but if the generation business decided to charge less and to cut its profits they would then pass the savings on to the retail businesses which would allow them to reduce costs to us



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    The generation business isn't allowed to charge less, generators are paid the price of the last kWh. If the grid needs 5000 MWh and ESB can supply 4900 MWh at 10c/kWh there's a missing 100 MWh. The next cheapest supplier is Red's Spin Classes, they can supply 100 MWh at 90c/kWh.

    We buy 4900 MWh from ESB at 90c/kWh and 100 MWH from Red at 90c/kWh. It's a system was designed to encourage investment in cheap energy sourcing by giving profits to cheap suppliers justifying further investment in lower price sources. This led to a decent mixed system of cheap renewables + gas turbines to be dispatched to fill the gaps.

    The gas price issues highlighted a huge flaw in the system, and it's being changed. However, it's an EU level system so takes some time to reform. In the interim energy suppliers have made excessive profits. Some countries have implemented taxes to claw back the excess energy profits, our government didn't. For ESB in particular the excess profits will be returned to its shareholder (the Irish Government).



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,367 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    That seems like a bizarre situation where suppliers are unable to set their own prices and must follow the price of their most expensive competitor.

    Not saying you're wrong just that it sounds rather unbelievable and not in keeping with most EU rules which are designed to benefit the consumer



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    Wait til you find out that some power stations here are being paid for their full 440MW output while outputting zero to the grid... the catch - they need to be able to output that 440MW within 30 minutes of getting the call from Eirgrid.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    It's called the internal energy market. At the time it was implemented it was thought that it was the best mechanism to encourage competition for generators in a way that results in lower energy costs overall. The universe said "hold my beer" and figured out a way to break it very quickly.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I'm actually okay with that, it's sensible having backup plans for an essential utility (probably one of the most essential utilities there is nowadays)

    If you don't then you end up with a situation like Texas a few years ago

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    As a competition mechanism between energy sources it works reasonably well. Renewables get first bid and when there's a lot of renewables available they force many fossil generators to idle

    It's also generally made very polluting fuels like coal effectively uneconomical to use

    Like any market system, it's extremely vulnerable to monopolies controlling prices. While the electricity market isn't a monopoly, the global gas market pretty much is and that disrupts any markets it feeds into

    One could argue the system is working extremely well because high gas prices have driven a record amount of renewable installations and thus creating more competition and greening our electricity grid

    Certainly I've never seen so many people installing solar panels or taking steps to be more energy efficient

    It probably doesn't say many good things about our society that people tend to perform their best when threatened with scarcity and will be horribly wasteful when they're content and provided for

    Maybe the economists had it right all along...

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,367 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I'd agree with the Amazing raisin on this one, better to have some form of a backup plan for the days when the wind doesn't blow or the rivers don't flow while still allowing renewables to do most of the heavy lifting

    It would obviously make more financial sense to have that 440MW plant in public ownership rather than in the hands of private interests but I accept that ship has long since sailed



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,953 ✭✭✭Genghis


    That is a great analysis. I would probably though distinguish between eCars and other providers in the following way: eCars have a huge legacy estate. There is no CapEx Recovery required on many of their units. Admittedly, many are low volume, but any income from these is largely free income.

    I would agree that ultra / rapid / fast chargers maintain a high 'convenience' price (still merit a small price reduction), but the legacy AC chargers are way over-priced (by as much as 20/25c) and these prices are distorting competition in the market.

    I am also going to post this again. It is John Byrne, head of eCars promising rate reductions back in Autumn 2023. Seven months later not a dickie bird. They are surely the only company operating here still selling units of electricity at 2022 rates. Absolutely shameless back-pedalling from a promise to customers, particularly as they had previously committed when rising the price to review it down again as soon as they could.

    Let me offer an opinion. eCards are part of ESB group, a highly ambitious group with operations beyond the ROI. I believe eCars are using Irish customers to pay for their expansion in the UK. So much for a green agenda, and supporting EV sales.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,367 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Presume that came about with the privatisation strategy in 2007? I would argue that they failed miserably on the point of reducing costs overall with that strategy but what do I know



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,367 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Let me offer an opinion. eCars are part of ESB group, a highly ambitious group with operations beyond the ROI. I believe eCars are using Irish customers to pay for their expansion in the UK. So much for a green agenda, and supporting EV sales.

    Maybe but I'd say it's more of a supply/demand argument and as mentioned earlier there's an element of "I'm alright jack because I rarely/never use public charging" and never mind the people who probably would rely on public charging due to not having a driveway



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,256 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    They do benefit the consumer. If generators are to do dear , they won’t get picked up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,256 ✭✭✭✭ted1




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I suppose the CapEx argument from Ecars is that the current rates pay for network expansion rather than just paying for the current crop of chargers

    One could counter that they'd expect more expansion for the price being paid 😏

    I do agree that AC charging should be a lot cheaper. Ecars have always said that AC chargers aren't economical, but I still argue that they're designed to be uneconomical that way they're installed with a single meter connection per charger

    This has always been to keep in line with ESBN recommendations, but they are just recommendations and it can be possible to install multiple chargers on a single meter connection

    One thing I find annoying is the assertion that Ecars is a separate entity within ESB group which is expected to be self funding

    This is plainly untrue, for example when the chargers are being installed they're installed by ESB Networks engineers. All their planning permission is also being filed by ESB Innovations ROI

    So there's definitely some support coming from the rest of ESB group. I don't have a problem with that per se, but it contradicts the narrative of Ecars being independent

    Given the published rates for ESB engineers aren't exactly cheap, it seems likely that Ecars are getting a discount or are being horrendously irresponsible by not seeking a cheaper option (like doing the maintenance and planning in-house)

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    One could counter that they'd expect more expansion for the price being paid

    I've always been fierce critic of eCars, but their rollout has gained significant pace over the last 6-12 months in fairness... It used to be a new site (150kW + 50kW - in the usual 3 space configuration) every 4-6 months, but credit where credit's due they are opening 'better'* sites, and more regularly too... a lot more regularly...

    *cable lengths are still a problem... the new 8 car hub in Blanch will accommodate 4x Tesla's & 4x VW's, but it won't accommodate 8x Tesla's, or 8x VW's.. thats a problem that doesn't need to be there (that problem is not there for Applegreen).

    This has always been to keep in line with ESBN recommendations, but they are just recommendations and it can be possible to install multiple chargers on a single meter connection

    If this is what's holding eCars back from installing new/more AC them it's madness.... utter madness.. I bet that hotel in Kerry that just installed 50 chargers doesn't have 50 new meters for them.... There is a huge market out there for AC charging, and there are so many operators getting in on it, but eCars should be owning that market given the awareness of their brand... people would gravitate towards them because they'd already have the app/account..



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