Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

downcow

listermint wrote: »

I'm pretty sure 4 percent is not 1.5% please stop spreading inaccuracies.

Again you defend the dup. At this point you're very very transparent. All of this stuff is down to the dup they are at the table.

The allocation is less than half your population pro rata as you put it.

This is embarrassing and emblematic of the treatment you can and will expect from a post brexit uk.

Welcome to the new world order. You haven't lived in it before because you've had the luxury of EU membership to shield conservative incompetence

Listermint. I have ignored your inaccuracies thus far but it is a bit rich for you to tell others they are not accurate.

I will stand over my statement that 60 is PRETTY CLOSE to pro rata.

Now let’s look at your statements in just you last two posts
1) the dup closed Stormont. UNTRUE
2) The allocation is less than half your population pro rata as you put it. UNTRUE

Would you care to comment on these last two gaffs of yours. If you think I am not 100% correct and you 100% wrong on these then post the evidence. In fact I save you the bother. Here’s the evidence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_population

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/stormont-in-crisis-as-martin-mcguinness-resignation-brings-down-ruling-executive-35352325.html

Leroy42

downcow wrote: »

Thanks
That would seem like one that would be easily sorted with the right attitude ie an exemption for licences in UK & eu for each other’s lorries

But the EU market covers 450m million people after Brexit, the UK covers 60m. So it is not just a straight swap.

What do you believe the UK should have to pay/give in order to get this free access?

And should every country in the world get this access or just the UK? It would seem very valuable to the UK freight companies to get this access.

murphaph

Folkstonian wrote: »

Jaguar Land Rover decided to move production of models for the Chinese market to China almost a decade ago.

It also decided to open a Slovakian factory (given an EU grant of course - so Britain incentivised and funded a business moving out of the country as a member of the EU) in 2015.

These were the given examples, to which I was replying. The assertion that jaguar Land Rover is moving from Britain because of Brexit does not stack up, no matter how much umbrage you feel.

What on Earth are you on about with your ‘own Brexit’ nonsense? This isn’t buzzfeed. The self-righteousness is deeply offputting and not conducive to friendly discussion.

What EU grant was provided to JLR to move to Slovakia?

CelticRambler

briany wrote: »

As I'd said before, maybe a 10 year time limit with some clauses could work.

Clause 1 - If the UK have not come up with a satisfactory solution to the border question within that 10 years, then they face one of two options. Either they extend the backstop by 5 years, or they void their whatever deal they have with the EU.

The UK will notify the EU whenever within this 10 year period that they feel they have a satisfactory solution to the border question. They could even notify the EU more than once.

Clause 2 - Upon notification of a solution by the UK to the EU, EU inspectors will be invited to assess it themselves. If their opinion is in the affirmative, then the backstop ceases. If it is in the negative but the EU can see progress they can come back and reassess. If not, then the choice in Clause 1 is triggered. This choice would be a free vote would be made via a free vote in the UK parliament.

Clause 3 (optional) - If the UK and EU cannot agree over the proposed border solution, an independent opinion could be sought, such as the UN. If the UK and EU are at such a point of bad faith, this could be a way forward.

Or simplify all of that and say "one backstop unless and until a mutually acceptable alternative arrangement is agreed between the two parties." :cool:

Leroy42

downcow wrote: »

Listermint. I have ignored your inaccuracies thus far but it is a bit rich for you to tell others they are not accurate.

I will stand over my statement that 60 is PRETTY CLOSE to pro rata.

Now let’s look at your statements in just you last two posts
1) the dup closed Stormont. UNTRUE
2) The allocation is less than half your population pro rata as you put it. UNTRUE

Would you care to comment on these last two gaffs of yours. If you think I am not 100% correct and you 100% wrong on these then post the evidence. In fact I save you the bother. Here’s the evidence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_population

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/stormont-in-crisis-as-martin-mcguinness-resignation-brings-down-ruling-executive-35352325.html

Ah, now I understand why you think Brexit is the EU's fault. McGuiness resigning because the DUP refused to properly deal with the Ask for Cash scandal is SF's fault.

I suppose SF should have simply ignored the corruption?

downcow

Inquitus wrote: »

And why would the EU allow that, a 3rd country having full access to the EU's internal freight haulage market, especially when we have no interest in access to yours.

These post that are flying about is what o tried to address the other night.
Is this a serious comment that you believe the Eu has no interest in access to the UK market.
This is the sort of stuff that undermines the remain argument

prawnsambo

Inquitus wrote: »

And why would the EU allow that, a 3rd country having full access to the EU's internal freight haulage market, especially when we have no interest in access to yours.

Sorry folks, but ECMT permits aren't an EU competency. ECMT stands for European Conference of Ministers of Transport. The countries involved are as follows:

Albania, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russian Federation, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine and United Kingdom.

Permits are issued on a quota basis. The only reason they are a problem now is because for the UK, the EU is now an external territory of 27 countries instead of an internal one for the UK. The issue was flagged well in advance, but there's no easy way of getting more permits.

I knew the EU would be blamed for it, but there you go, people don't listen.

More info here

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

These post that are flying about is what o tried to address the other night.
Is this a serious comment that you believe the Eu has no interest in access to the UK market.
This is the sort of stuff that undermines the remain argument

They dont have the same interest that the uk has in accessing the European market, how have you not yet got it through your head that the eu is 450 million consumers and the uk is only 60?

Leroy42

The UK is a single market. Containers can be shipped in without a driver and thus no need for a licence, an then the domestic lorry ships it to wherever.

In the EU, the transport works because a lorry can drive across multiple countries and drop off a number of consignments, but each country now, with the UK leaving, need a licence.

So they are completely different transport markets.

But as usual you want to treat them as exactly the same as that both sides should just agree to continue on as before when that is patently not the case.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

Listermint. I have ignored your inaccuracies thus far but it is a bit rich for you to tell others they are not accurate.

I will stand over my statement that 60 is PRETTY CLOSE to pro rata.

Now let’s look at your statements in just you last two posts
1) the dup closed Stormont. UNTRUE
2) The allocation is less than half your population pro rata as you put it. UNTRUE

Would you care to comment on these last two gaffs of yours. If you think I am not 100% correct and you 100% wrong on these then post the evidence. In fact I save you the bother. Here’s the evidence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_population

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/stormont-in-crisis-as-martin-mcguinness-resignation-brings-down-ruling-executive-35352325.html

OK, on the question of permits, the figures you provided prove that you are entirely wrong.

NI got 1.5% of permits, while NI is 2.84% of the UK population. This means NI only got 52% of the permits it should have on a pro-rata basis.

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

It really is quite patethic that Brexiteers have no better answer to the many problems of Brexit other than to say that the EU should fix it for the UK. Brexit has consequences.

Here’s why we are headed for hard borders.
I suggested that it would make sense for Eu and UK to talk to each other about lorry access into each other’s markets.
There then comes a tyraid of anger that I could suggest Co-operation.
You are reading it all wrong. Eu & uk will have the sense to sort this stuff to mutual benifit. Seems Ireland may end up on the sidelines pleading with Eu to not talk to those nasty people in the UK

Inquitus

prawnsambo wrote: »

Sorry folks, but ECMT permits aren't an EU competency. ECMT stands for European Conference of Ministers of Transport. The countries involved are as follows:

Albania, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russian Federation, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine and United Kingdom.

Permits are issued on a quota basis. The only reason they are a problem now is because for the UK, the EU is now an external territory of 27 countries instead of an internal one for the UK. The issue was flagged well in advance, but there's no easy way of getting more permits.

I knew the EU would be blamed for it, but there you go, people don't listen.

More info here

So as a member state the EU, for the purposes of the ECMT, counts as one territory with any member country allowed to haul unlimited freight within the single market, as a 3rd country the UK is quota limited per the agreement with the above mentioned non EU states. So in essence the EU does not even have it within its remit to allow a 3rd country UK unfettered access?

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

That would seem like one that would be easily sorted with the right attitude ie an exemption for licences in UK & eu for each other’s lorries

Yup, that definitely seems to be the classic British interpretation of "the right attitude". Seeing as it's your suggestion, perhaps you'd like to justify why the EU should offer the UK an exemption? What do their truckers do that makes them more special than the Swiss, the Ukranians or the Turks?

And why would the EU bother looking for reciprocity? Does the UK have any system in place at the moment for validating ECMT permits for EU hauliers?

listermint

downcow wrote: »

Listermint. I have ignored your inaccuracies thus far but it is a bit rich for you to tell others they are not accurate.

I will stand over my statement that 60 is PRETTY CLOSE to pro rata.

Now let’s look at your statements in just you last two posts
1) the dup closed Stormont. UNTRUE
2) The allocation is less than half your population pro rata as you put it. UNTRUE

Would you care to comment on these last two gaffs of yours. If you think I am not 100% correct and you 100% wrong on these then post the evidence. In fact I save you the bother. Here’s the evidence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_population

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/stormont-in-crisis-as-martin-mcguinness-resignation-brings-down-ruling-executive-35352325.html

Granted I took the first results which had the island of the UK at 53 mill. And got that percentage.

But updated stats have you at 3 percent of the population of the UK. Which is still double your allocation pro rata as you put it. Of 1.5% of the licenses

So once again you posted inaccuracies. You still have less than half your allocation.

Again this is down to the dup who are the only ones at the table.

The dup pulled down stormont through fraud deception and abysmal ethics. I am scratching my head how you would defend that. As you stated several times you don't like the dup your no fan of theirs.

However your defense of them says different.

Imreoir2

VinLieger wrote: »

They dont have the same interest that the uk has in accessing the European market, how have you not yet got it through your head that the eu is 450 million consumers and the uk is only 60?

The guy thinks 52% is pretty close to 100%. I don't think it's a huge streach to suggest that maths is not his strong suit.

##mod note## - Play the ball , not the man please

Akrasia

VinLieger wrote: »

They dont have the same interest that the uk has in accessing the European market, how have you not yet got it through your head that the eu is 450 million consumers and the uk is only 60?

Plus, the UK has alnost nothing to trade that the EU can't easily source either internally or from other trading partners with which we have existing trade agreements that they arent unilaterally away from

Leroy42

downcow wrote: »

Here’s why we are headed for hard borders.
I suggested that it would make sense for Eu and UK to talk to each other about lorry access into each other’s markets.
There then comes a tyraid of anger that I could suggest Co-operation.
You are reading it all wrong. Eu & uk will have the sense to sort this stuff to mutual benifit. Seems Ireland may end up on the sidelines pleading with Eu to not talk to those nasty people in the UK

You didn't suggest coopereration, you suggested that with the right attitude they could simply agree to let each others lorries into each others markets.

It has now been pointed out to you, by numerous posters, that you are completely incorrect in your position and that you are actually asking for the UK, after leaving, to be given free access to the market they just left. Remember the will of the people? They voted for this. How dare the EU try to offer them licences when clearly the UK voted to leave without licences!

So get back off your highhorse. You came out with a proposals based on nothing more than trying to lay the blame for this on the EU when it is fact you and your government that have created this.

downcow

Leroy42 wrote: »

Ah, now I understand why you think Brexit is the EU's fault. McGuiness resigning because the DUP refused to properly deal with the Ask for Cash scandal is SF's fault.

I suppose SF should have simply ignored the corruption?

I would love to respond but it’s off thread.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

Here’s why we are headed for hard borders.
I suggested that it would make sense for Eu and UK to talk to each other about lorry access into each other’s markets.
There then comes a tyraid of anger that I could suggest Co-operation.
You are reading it all wrong. Eu & uk will have the sense to sort this stuff to mutual benifit. Seems Ireland may end up on the sidelines pleading with Eu to not talk to those nasty people in the UK

How exactly do you think Ireland will be on the sideline when we have a permanant seat on the European Council and a veto on any future trade deal with the UK. You are really clutching at straws here. I hate to break it to you, but it is the UK that has sidelined itself.

listermint

downcow wrote: »

I would love to respond but it’s off thread.

But you've no love for the dup you said this repeatedly over the last few weeks.

Lets start being honest here.

The dup are representing no one but the dup. Fk business I think Boris put it fairly apt

downcow

Imreoir2 wrote: »

OK, on the question of permits, the figures you provided prove that you are entirely wrong.

NI got 1.5% of permits, while NI is 2.84% of the UK population. This means NI only got 52% of the permits it should have on a pro-rata basis.

Well here we have the blinkers shown again.
You have zero interest in challenging listermint on his clear inaccuracies but you challenge me on subjective stuff like PRETTY CLOSE.
But you are wrong again as a very substantial amount of NI frieght companies have the lorries registered in the south so they have actually probably gone exactly prorata- but much more interesting is your need to attack me and not listermint

listermint

downcow wrote: »

Well here we have the blinkers shown again.
You have zero interest in challenging listermint on his clear inaccuracies but you challenge me on subjective stuff like PRETTY CLOSE.
But you are wrong again as a very substantial amount of NI frieght companies have the lorries registered in the south so they have actually probably gone exactly prorata- but much more interesting is your need to attack me and not listermint

Which inaccuracies.

I came back to you on that.

Please do explain

Spanish Eyes

Brexit is relying on the inertia of the electorate. I think they are all punch drunk now. But in reality I doubt the majority of Brexits really knew exactly what they were voting for anyway, apart from a minority who think they will see once again a jingoistic version of Rule Brittania.

So anything can be slipped in if the ERG and DUP can be softened up a bit from their no holds barred stance now.

Sorry I was just dreaming there for a minute!

prawnsambo

Inquitus wrote: »

So as a member state the EU, for the purposes of the ECMT, counts as one territory with any member country allowed to haul unlimited freight within the single market, as a 3rd country the UK is quota limited per the agreement with the above mentioned non EU states. So in essence the EU does not even have it within its remit to allow a 3rd country UK unfettered access?

No. The permits that the UK have were only really used to transit ECMT territories not in the EU or EEA. So they are woefully inadequate when brexit happens.

Here are the numbers from the DIT website:

There are a limited number of ECMT permits available for UK hauliers. For 2019 there are 984 annual permits for Euro VI emission vehicles, 2,592 monthly permits for Euro VI emission vehicles, and 240 monthly permits for Euro V or VI emission vehicles. Annual permits cover all journeys made using the permit between 1 January and 31 December 2019. Monthly permits are valid for all journeys within 30 days of the start date listed on the permit. You will be able to apply for annual ECMT permits from November 2018 and these will be issued in early 2019.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

Here’s why we are headed for hard borders.
I suggested that it would make sense for Eu and UK to talk to each other about lorry access into each other’s markets.
There then comes a tyraid of anger that I could suggest Co-operation.
You are reading it all wrong. Eu & uk will have the sense to sort this stuff to mutual benifit.

Mutual benefit? You're forgetting that the UK voted to set itself up as a competitor to the EU, and to impose hard borders. That's the default outcome of "leave the EU".

Now you're telling us that we should cooperate with you, even while your Prime Minister makes misleading statements to your own parliament?

You've stated that you've switched from no-vote to Leave. Fine, that's your choice, but now you've got to accept the consequences of that decision. From the 30th March onwards, the UK will have the same status as North Korea.

downcow

Folks
I continue to be amazed. I asked an honest civil question about how the Eu came up with the figure of 60 licences.

There was an onslaught of anger and accusations, many of which I can’t respond to as they are off thread and most of which are clearly untrue and just nasty.
I can’t even read them as fast as you guys are posting

Why are many of you so angry about this brexit thing and yet posting how Eu is king. Ireland will be looked after and UK is in dire straights.
Is your anger out of concern for the UK?

Inquitus

CelticRambler wrote: »

You've stated that you've switched from no-vote to Leave. Fine, that's your choice, but now you've got to accept the consequences of that decision. From the 30th March onwards, the UK will have the same status as North Korea.

Indeed, but the DPKR will probably engender warmer feelings.....

Leroy42

Downcow, what is your reasoning behind why you think the EU should give free access to UK truckers?

Do you simply think it would a nice thing to do? That it needs to do it? Or maybe the UK would be willing to offer something in return as the markets are so unmatched?

Leonard Hofstadter

Watching BBC's Newsnight Programme now.

The Tory person (whoever he is) is still saying with absolute confidence that they EU always blinks at the last minute and things always run down to the wire etc, apparently now it's only one small change:rolleyes:.

Infuriating really.

CelticRambler

Regarding the numbers of permits issued to NI hauliers, I found the document which I (inaccurately) cited yesterday. The relevant text is this (my highlighting in red):

If you’re a Northern Ireland vehicle operator

If you have an operator licence from the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, the UK government expects you will not need an ECMT permit to drive to or through Ireland.

The UK government will seek an agreement with Ireland to allow continued access for Northern Ireland hauliers to Ireland without the need for ECMT permits.

The UK government has stated it will not require Irish hauliers to have ECMT permits to operate in Northern Ireland.

So hopes and dreams that it'll be all right for NI-based operators; but in the meantime, register your business&vehicles in the RoI because we're throwing open the doors ...

I reckons we'll see a lot more of that kind of "Brexit preparedness" while TM continues her phantom talks with the EU.