Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

youcantakethat

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm guessing you have an issue with Irish translators?

Can anyone justify the waste of translating things in to Irish, which will NEVER be read in Irish?

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Anyway, I don't agree that Britain will be better off outside the EU. For what it's worth, neither does the British government.

Rubbish, the British government would not be Brexiting if they did not believe they would be better off in the medium / long term outside of the bullying, corrupt wasteful EU as they see it.

swampgas

youcantakethat wrote: »

Can anyone justify the waste of translating things in to Irish, which will NEVER be read in Irish?

Yes, but won't derail this thread.

Rubbish, the British government would not be Brexiting if they did not believe they would be better off in the medium / long term outside of the bullying, corrupt wasteful EU as they see it.

Odd then that most MPs think the UK will be worse off outside the EU.

youcantakethat

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Sterling has collapsed,

It has not, a euro still only buys 87 pence sterling, the same as it did ten years ago.

It is the Euro which has collapsed against the dollar, from one euro buying 1.6 dollars to 1.15 dollars now or whatever. We cannot go shopping in the States now like we did in 2007, even though there is a complete ...... running the White House. You would think the dollar would have collapsed, no it is the Euro. Not surprising I suppose when growth in the Eurozone this past 10 years was less than anywhere else in the world, less than even even the US or UK.

youcantakethat

youcantakethat wrote: »

Grand. given the waste and inefficiencies in the EU, I would say the UK will do just nicely in a number of years time, and will outlast the EU. Shame about our 200 highly paid Irish language translators, there are more of them than speak Irish here on a daily basis ffs! Maybe we could ask some of the newer member states to pay for them?

Where is "here"?

Strazdas

youcantakethat wrote: »

Really? Where did I say that? I never said Irish language translators were "a major factor in the Leave vote"

FFS !

They are an example of EU waste. The British have been one of the biggest net contributors to EEC and then EU funds, they will not be for much longer.

Do you know how many people work for the EU across 28 countries? 46,000.

British civil service = 410,000 workers

Imreoir2

youcantakethat wrote: »

Grand. given the waste and inefficiencies in the EU, I would say the UK will do just nicely in a number of years time, and will outlast the EU. Shame about our 200 highly paid Irish language translators, there are more of them than speak Irish here on a daily basis ffs! Maybe we could ask some of the newer member states to pay for them?

What exactly is your point? Escaping the cost of a few hundred translators is worth having to replicate the work of dozens of agencies needing thousands of extra civil servants to be hired?

I think you need to sit down and think this out a little more.

An Claidheamh

youcantakethat wrote: »

It has not, a euro still only buys 87 pence sterling, the same as it did ten years ago.

It is the Euro which has collapsed against the dollar, from one euro buying 1.6 dollars to 1.15 dollars now or whatever. We cannot go shopping in the States now like we did in 2007, even though there is a complete ...... running the White House. You would think the dollar would have collapsed, no it is the Euro. Not surprising I suppose when growth in the Eurozone this past 10 years was less than anywhere else in the world, less than even even the US or UK.

Sterling has devalued by 15%, Brexit hasn't even happened, you can have that fact.

The Euro has not.

British people are going to need Trócaire donations pretty soon if it keeps dropping.

Imreoir2

youcantakethat wrote: »

Can anyone justify the waste of translating things in to Irish, which will NEVER be read in Irish?

Who says it is never read in Irish? We do have a native Irish speaker from the Gaeltacht as an MEP. Irish is not even the least used official EU language in the European parliament.

Personally I have reason to read some of it on a semi-regular basis. I work in community development in the Gaeltacht and a number of programms are funded by the EU. Suffice it to say that your opinion is ill informed.

Capt'n Midnight

youcantakethat wrote: »

They are an example of EU waste. The British have been one of the biggest net contributors to EEC and then EU funds, they will not be for much longer.

Except the UK isn't a nett contributor in the strictest sense.

The UK economy is down £80Bn since the referendum, so you could argue that the UK makes about £32Bn a year out of being in the EU.

It's now £800m a week , which would cover the £8.1Bn in a lot less than a year.

Stacksofwacks

Hurrache wrote: »

Realistically how can Labour force the second vote? I'd be very surprised if it happens.

Well I'd assume that most of Labour and opposition MPs would support it and a good number of cons, even if May dosent go with it eventually Id imagine there would be enough rebel mps to get it over the line. But then again this is Brexit so anything is possible

youcantakethat

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Sterling has devalued by 15%

It is the same now as ten years ago. A euro buys eighty something pence sterling, same as it has for most of the past 10 years.


There is more to lthe Brexit debate than money. Take immigration - the EU fails badly in this respect. Net immigration of 300,000 p.a. is unsustainable and the effects of Merkel's disastrous open door policy are plain to see.

An Claidheamh

Inquitus wrote: »

Downcow is back, more raw, new name.

I always think it is worth mentioning.

The British position/argument is so weak that their online bors must pretend that they're Irish in order to try and have influence.

Unfortunately, they're really bad at it.

Quoting anti-Irish media is a bit of a giveaway while also claiming to care about our sovereignty or freedom .... except from them.

But this is Brexit logic we're dealing with.

Imreoir2

youcantakethat wrote: »

Irish ministers rarely speak Irish at the EU, and even Sinn Fein rarely does. However, Irish language campaigners have estimated that almost 200 full time jobs for Irish translators will be created when, incredibly, Irish becomes a full working language of the union in 2020.

No wonder the British want out.

What is incredible about the national language of an EU member state being a working language of the EU? Despite your unfounded claims that no one speaks Irish, there are actually several Irish speaking MEPs and Irish consistantly comes ahead of a number of other EU languages in terms of use within the EU.

The cost of translation into Irish is hardly surprising given that high level tecnical translation skills in an endangered language command a premium compared to the same skills in a major language, especially at a time when the volume of work in that endangered language has expanded significantly due to the winding down of the derrogation on the status of Irish as a working language in the EU.

charlie14

youcantakethat wrote: »

Shame about our 200 highly paid Irish language translators, there are more of them than speak Irish here on a daily basis ffs!

I do not know where your "here" is, but I can assure you that the Irish language is used by a great many people in Ireland, both north and south on a daily basis.
It is very closely related to Scottish Gaelic so I can see that 200 having to be increased when Scotland joins the EU.

4068ac1elhodqr

youcantakethat wrote: »

....corrupt wasteful EU as they see it.

Meanwhile some folks in the North can no longer 'Burn oil for Cash' after the DUP backed boiler scheme was discovered to be, well 'corrupt and wasteful'.

Then there's the HS2 project, even the CEO can't put a price on it, estimates are north of £56bn, parts of the new track will have speed restrictions and the UN said it will be too noisy. Many MP's are calling for it to be scrapped and to take a loss on the entire project. The Chinese would have built this in half the time & cost.

Could go on...
e.g. The HOL - Each (800 unelected) peer costs the taxpayer £83,000 per year, even T'May has called for a cull, with an estimate showing there could be 1,000 peers by 2031. Still it's probably a cosy spot for an afternoon snooze when collecting the £300pday tax-free allowance for as little as 45mins banter.

Tax avoidance/in-equality - there was an article couple of years ago that said the Duke of Westminster will avoid paying much of the £9bn Inheritance tax (at 40%), that the small man pays, thanks to generous trust law and property relief, hmm seems fair.

Imreoir2

charlie14 wrote: »

I do not know where your "here" is, but I can assure you that the Irish language is used by a great many people in Ireland, both north and south on a daily basis.
It is very closely related to Scottish Gaelic so I can see that 200 having to be increased when Scotland joins the EU.

That would very much depend on an independant Scotland choosing to make Scotish Gaelic an offical language of the state. Should they merely recognise it as a legally protected regional language then it is unlikely that it will get status as an EU working language. Welsh for example has official status in Wales and many more speakers than Irish does, but has no status in the EU becuase it is not recognised as an official language of the UK state.

youcantakethat

charlie14 wrote: »

I do not know where your "here" is, but I can assure you that the Irish language is used by a great many people in Ireland, both north and south on a daily basis.

It is not. Go in to a newsagent and have a look for a newspaper or magazine in Irish. Go out for a meal, and see if any of the menus are in Irish. Go in to a supermarket and see if any of the signs or the self service checkouts are in Irish.
Even shinner bots know that.

Peregrinus

Imreoir2 wrote: »

That would very much depend on an independant Scotland choosing to make Scotish Gaelic an offical language of the state. Should they merely recognise it as a legally protected regional language then it is unlikely that it will get status as an EU working language. Welsh for example has official status in Wales and many more speakers than Irish does, but has no status in the EU becuase it is not recognised as an official language of the UK state.

I think it's highly likely that an independent Scotland would confer official status on Scots Gaelic. Don't you? It's already the case that the Scots Parliament has enacted the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, which has the purpose of "securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language"; I don't see them resiling from that in the event of Scottish independence.

Imreoir2

youcantakethat wrote: »

It is not. Go in to a newsagent and have a look for a newspaper or magazine in Irish.

Ugh, hard copy is so archaic, Irish language newspapers and magazines moved online years ago. The main Irish language newspaper, Tuairisc.ie has been online only since it started publising several years ago. Nós, the most widely read irish language magazine used to publish in hardcopy but decided to move to an online format a few years ago too.

Go out for a meal, and see if any of the menus are in Irish. Go in to a supermarket and see if any of the signs or the self service checkouts are in Irish.
Even shinner bots know that.

I don't know what supermarket you go to, most of the supermarkets where I am from have bilingual signage. A lot of the businesses in the town where I live also provide a service in Irish.

I am not a shinner bot btw, I vote Green.

Imreoir2

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think it's highly likely that an independent Scotland would confer official status on Scots Gaelic. Don't you? It's already the case that the Scots Parliament has enacted the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, which has the purpose of "securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language"; I don't see them resiling from that in the event of Scottish independence.

That is true, but there is a diference in legal terms between having language legislation that protects a minority language and giving a language status as an official language of the country. Scotland could well give Scittish Gaelic constitutional status as an official national language, but they could also give Scottish Gaelic protection in law as a minority language without making it an official language of the country.

As far as the EU dimension goes, there is a good reason to seek official working language status for your language. You have to have fluency in at least two official EU languages to work in the EU institutions, so making sure your language has official status makes it easier for your citizens to be employed in the EU.

youcantakethat

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Ugh, hard copy is so archaic, Irish language newspapers and magazines moved online years ago.

That is because nobody bought anything printed in Irish. Incidentally English language newspapers and magazines moved online years ago too, but people still buy and read English language publications both hard copy and online.

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I don't know what supermarket you go to, most of the supermarkets where I am from have bilingual signage. A lot of the businesses in the town where I live also provide a service in Irish.

Outside the gaeltacht (grant land) you will not find interior signage in supermarkets or checkout machines in Irish, food menus in Irish etc.

Peregrinus

Imreoir2 wrote: »

That is true, but there is a diference in legal terms between having language legislation that protects a minority language and giving a language status as an official language of the country. Scotland could well give Scittish Gaelic constitutional status as an official national language, but they could also give Scottish Gaelic protection in law as a minority language without making it an official language of the country. . . .

I realise that. My point is that for many years now the Scots have been legally and politically committed to the "official language" policy. It seems very, very unlikely that would change in the event of Scottish independence.

Imreoir2

youcantakethat wrote: »

That is because nobody bought anything printed in Irish. Incidentally English language newspapers and magazines moved online years ago too, but people still buy and read English language publications both hard copy and online.

I remember fondly buying copies of the Irish language newspaper before Tuairisc.ie came along, and Nós had great artwork on their hardcopy magazines, but times move on. There are still hardcopy magazines in Irish, Comhar and Feasta for example, but the main ones have moved online. The move to an online format had benefited Irish language print media greatly, while the hardcopy papers sold thousands of copies the online format has allowed them to invest more in their journalism and has seen a significant expansion in readership as a result.

Outside the gaeltacht (grant land) you will not find interior signage in supermarkets or checkout machines in Irish, food menus in Irish etc.

Not sure what you mean by "grant land". Anyway, I don't live in the Gaeltacht, I am talking about supermarkets in towns and cities outside the Gaeltacht, both Tescos and SuperValue have bilingual signage in their stores (not every Tesco store has it, its being introduced as stores update their signs).

Anyway, I think we may be drifting slightly off topic, unless your dislike of Irish has some relevance to Brexit?

reslfj

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Joanna Better Hairpiece wrote: »

Well, not overnight but circa 2025.

Accession negotiations are well underway for the six countries.
Once they meet the strict criteria, full membership will be sought and likely accepted.

I can imagine Montenegro and Serbia joining reasonably quickly, and perhaps Northern Macedonia now that the Greece kerfuffle has been resolved, but Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo would have considerable work to do to complete negotiations.

"Well underway" doesn't says anything about how far, how fast the process is now and surely nothing about how long the process will be or indeed that i will succeed at all.

Ukraine:
The EU association that was part of Putins excuse for taking Krim and east Ukraine seems to work, but it will take more than a couple of Putins for Ukraine to get any closer to the EU.

Turkey:
Negotiations started in 2005, and very few 'chapters' has been closed.

Merkel has said she thinks the talks with Turkey should stop. The Danish PM has said he didn't think Turkey should join.....
The country supporting Turkeys membership the most has been the UK (and the USA).

Turkey will not join for decades - if ever.

Albania+North Macedonia
Negotiations will start this summer. It is likely a many years process.
These are very small and poor countries with ~2 mill each
Both are now in NATO.

Montenegro:
Negotiating 3 of 32 chapters closed - years to go, but may well succeed.
A very small country under 700,000
Member of NATO.

Serbia:
Application for EU membership in 2009
Negotiating. 2 of 16 chapters closed. AFAIK not much progress any longer
Can't join EU before the Kosovo problem solved.
Not in NATO and no intention to join. Close to Russia.

Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo:
Conflict areas. EU membership is way into the future

You could add Moldova. It has trade deals with the EU, but can't get much closer as there is the unresolved problem with Transnistria.

So we are talking about three small countries - total less than 5 mill. - where membership realistically may be accepted sometime in a 2030 time frame.

Membership rules will likely be re-worked once Brexit WA+FTA has been agreed.
The current Polish and Hungarian problems with laws, the court system, respect for personal freedom, equal voting rights and democracy will have to be resolved efficiently, effectively and for the long term - before new members are accepted.

Lars

murphaph

youcantakethat wrote: »

Grand. given the waste and inefficiencies in the EU, I would say the UK will do just nicely in a number of years time, and will outlast the EU. Shame about our 200 highly paid Irish language translators, there are more of them than speak Irish here on a daily basis ffs! Maybe we could ask some of the newer member states to pay for them?

You know the EU is much less corrupt and wasteful than your average Irish county council?

murphaph

youcantakethat wrote: »

It is the same now as ten years ago. A euro buys eighty something pence sterling, same as it has for most of the past 10 years.


There is more to lthe Brexit debate than money. Take immigration - the EU fails badly in this respect. Net immigration of 300,000 p.a. is unsustainable and the effects of Merkel's disastrous open door policy are plain to see.

But Merkel's open door was shut like 2 years ago. The Balkan route is closed. Libya route vastly reduced. People actually returning to Syria already. Do keep up.

Zubeneschamali

irishproduce wrote: »

I see riots if they ignore the will of the majority who voted in good faith.

I see much bigger riots if people who don't even care about politics find no food on the shelves in Tesco.

Zubeneschamali

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Remaining only makes sense if it's followed by reform.

Disagree. Not jumping off the cliff makes sense.


Of course reform of the UK should be a thing to prevent cliff-jumping campaigns in future, but not jumping always makes sense.

Zubeneschamali

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

But to face decades of a narrative that screams "It really would have worked out if not for the traitors!"? No thank you.

I would rather face a narrative than a depression.


And what's the absolute worst case that decades of this narrative could bring about? A possible Brexit in decades, instead of Brexit right now. An easy choice.

Zubeneschamali

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm guessing you have an issue with Irish translators?

Or just with Irish. From another thread:

youcantakethat wrote: »

I remember getting whacked on the head by the teacher for something during Irish class.