Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Strazdas

Seth Brundle wrote: »

This Twitter thread about Kawczynski's income makes interesting reading and may explain his views...
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1092040413240807424?s=19

Great piece of detective work. It's fascinating to see just how many dodgy types are on board the Brexit train.

ancapailldorcha

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod note:

Let's move away from debating the history curriculum in UK schools please.

Posts deleted and sanctions issued.

Peregrinus

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Personally if I was in power in Brussels I would have long told May that she is barking up the wrong tree and that she can dance back to London to tell her government that they will leave with a no deal Brexit.

The EU's line on this is that the Brady amendment is the same Brexity nonsense that we have been hearing since Day 1. The Tory party is united in identifying something it doesn't like; well whoop-de-do.

Anyone looking for changes in what has been agreed so far needs to be able to say what changes they are looking for; that's kind of an entry-level requirement for being taken seriously. "We want alternatives!" is useless unless you can say what alternatives you want or would accept; the Brady amendment conspicuously fails to do this.

So when May says to the EU that she has a mandate from parliament to seek changes, the answer is no, parliament hasn't mandated any changes; it has just told you that it doesn't like what you have agreed. And if what you are looking for is changes that Parliament will like, a pretty basic requirement is that you should be able to identify changes that Parliament will like.

And since your record here is not good - you told us the agreement we signed in November would be acceptable to Parliament, but in the event you whipped against it in Parliament, and voted against it yourself - you have no credible proposition to put to us unless you have a suggestion for which Parliament has signalled approval.

So, Parliament is to consider this matter again on 14 February. Take that opportunity to get a mandate from Parliament for whatever proposal you want to put to us. Then put it to us.

But don't squander the opportunity. There's no point in getting a mandate for a proposal which you know we are going to reject. We have shaped our proposals very carefully around your red lines; if you want your counter-proposal to be considered you need to shape it around ours. It needs to be designed to appeal to us, and to take account our concerns. Don't waste our time and your last chance with proposals for a fixed expiry date for the backstop, or a unilateral right of withdrawal for the UK. Don't ask us to drop the backstop in favour of the promise of a yet-to-be-devised technical solution by the end of transition. Don't ask for the text of the Withdrawal Agreement to be reopened - it's far too late for that. Get your parliament to approve a proposal which delivers effectively the United Kingdom's guarantee to avoid of a hard border, including any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls, and delivers the other commitments the UK made in the Joint Report. Then maybe we can talk.

Paranoid Bob

Seth Brundle wrote: »

For those that missed it, here is Sajid Javid talking his nonsense on BBC earlier

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1092039231344566272?s=19


Meanwhile Michael Gove is trying to scare people into avoiding a no-deal Brexit because of potential rat infestations...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/fears-no-deal-brexit-could-13944476

So the technology exists to avid a hard border. Wonderful. Get that implemented before the end of the transition period and the backstop will not be invoked.
Simples.

Seth Brundle

A fruit & veg buyer explains to James O'Brien the impact of a no-deal Brexit on the prices and availability of stock come.March 30th (pretty scary!)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTXyI9jNIUQ

Call me Al

Seth Brundle wrote: »

A fruit & veg buyer explains to James O'Brien the impact of a no-deal Brexit on the prices and availability of stock come.March 30th (pretty scary!)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTXyI9jNIUQ

That's a depressing listen. From somebody in the business. All self-imposed during peace time.
I wonder why they aren't hearing discussions about this in the mainstream media yet.

VinLieger

Seth Brundle wrote: »

A fruit & veg buyer explains to James O'Brien the impact of a no-deal Brexit on the prices and availability of stock come.March 30th (pretty scary!)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTXyI9jNIUQ

I thought i had a good grasp on the issues like the trade delays and the tariffs but theres just so much more thats obvious once you hear it but probably never think about it. The priority stuff is scary, add in the 25% space, the seasonal food cycle and the eu workers, then remember this is for just one sector of the agriculture industry

prawnsambo

Paranoid Bob wrote: »

So the technology exists to avid a hard border. Wonderful. Get that implemented before the end of the transition period and the backstop will not be invoked.
Simples.

And of course BBC tweet the assertion with absolutely no context, no description of this magical solution and you are left in doubt as to whether they actually questioned his assertion or not. Not that I'm left in doubt on the subject of course.

This is the same stuff Bravermann was talking about: "Trusted traders, paperwork in advance, driver's moblie phone/numberplate recognition and automatic barriers". Completely waving away these 'barriers' as being any kind of infrastructure, nor what happens when you arrive at one without all the numberplate recognition/mobile phone app mallarkey working for you.

They don't trust numberplate recognition systems enough to use them on the motorway tolls here. And that's only for a couple of euro. I know they use it to collect tolls for people without etoll beepers, but why not everybody? Because it's not reliable enough and can be defeated.

J Mysterio

I've Handed in my Notice and I'm Leaving Brexit Britain

Short IT article from Cork woman who is leaving Britain after a decade due to Brexit. I'd imagine there are a lot of similar cases, on top of those posters here who have told us of their intentions.

Leroy42

The really worrying thing is the complete lack of positive news stories.

Many Brexit supporters wave away stories such as Nissan, Dyson or Barclays as nothing to do with Brexit but even if they are right were are the positives. Surely many businesses should be increasing investment to get in before the post Brexit boom?

But 2.5 years after the vote there are still no actual details of the benefits beyond vague slogans.

Seth Brundle

As we don't know what kind of Brexit there'll be, business won't be in a position to plan appropriately so there can't really be good news.
I work in an MNC company that deals closely with the UK. We produce all the stock sold in NI here in Dublin.
We don't yet know what tariffs are to be included and how any tariffs are to be included on invoices etc. We don't know what will happen to an important line of business in six weeks time

prawnsambo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

As we don't know what kind of Brexit there'll be, business won't be in a position to plan appropriately so there can't really be good news.
I work in an MNC company that deals closely with the UK. We produce all the stock sold in NI here in Dublin.
We don't yet know what tariffs are to be included and how any tariffs are to be included on invoices etc. We don't know what will happen to an important line of business in six weeks time

You can't put customs duties on invoices. This is something that is done at the point and time of entry. Because duties are paid on the value of goods (at the exchange rate at the time of presentation at customs) plus the cost of shipping. And if any local VAT is to be applied, that's done on top of the duties. Plus of course customs duties are levied on the importer and paid to the revenue service of the importing country.

Edit: You will probably need a customs clearance agent to do all the paperwork for you unless you are intending to take it on in-house.

Leroy42

Seth Brundle wrote: »

As we don't know what kind of Brexit there'll be, business won't be in a position to plan appropriately so there can't really be good news.
I work in an MNC company that deals closely with the UK. We produce all the stock sold in NI here in Dublin.
We don't yet know what tariffs are to be included and how any tariffs are to be included on invoices etc. We don't know what will happen to an important line of business in six weeks time

All true, but Brexit is supposed to be a positive. Tariffs were always likely, without existing tariffs there is less need for a trade deal.

But far from Brexit being a positive, the narrative has now changed that only a very particular form of Brexit is a positive. Where was all this period of chaos and uncertainty talked about during the campaign?

And at what point do the brexiteers accept that without their particular version of Brexit it cannot deliver what they promised and so should be shelved? Instead we have them doubling down and saying to help with everything.

J Mysterio

Why is Britain turning blind eye to Leave side’s lawbreaking?

Illegal fund activity linked to Brexit being ignored in belief ‘the people have spoken’

- Brexit means Brexit
- Leave means Leave
- Nothing else matters

Bigus

Leroy42 wrote: »

The really worrying thing is the complete lack of positive news stories.

Many Brexit supporters wave away stories such as Nissan, Dyson or Barclays as nothing to do with Brexit but even if they are right were are the positives. Surely many businesses should be increasing investment to get in before the post Brexit boom?

But 2.5 years after the vote there are still no actual details of the benefits beyond vague slogans.

On the "tomorrows newspaper headlines "piece a Female commentator in her early 30's on Sky news last night saying that the Nissan x-trail decision was absolutely nothing to do with Brexit, and all about Diesel, silly wagon.
She went as far as to say the papers were very disingenuous to push it as Brexit news , and she's what I think could be called a "moderate educated young British person" albeit she had an American California twang.

robinph

J Mysterio wrote: »

I've Handed in my Notice and I'm Leaving Brexit Britain

Short IT article from Cork woman who is leaving Britain after a decade due to Brexit. I'd imagine there are a lot of similar cases, on top of those posters here who have told us of their intentions.

Curiously it didn't mention if they had voted themselves in the referendum, or a comment like "something we didn't get a say in". I suspect that quite a few Irish in the UK didn't realise that they could vote.

10000maniacs

Paranoid Bob wrote: »

So the technology exists to avid a hard border. Wonderful. Get that implemented before the end of the transition period and the backstop will not be invoked.
Simples.

It is quite shocking that the likes of BBC presenters Andrew Marr, John Humphrys, Nick Robinson, Kirsty Wark and Emily Maitlis never challenge any Tory politicians on alternatives to the backstop. It's as if the BBC's editorial stance is firmly in the Brexit camp now, and probably always was. Especially on the Brexit issues relating to Ireland.
The BBC's Brexit bias is now so deep they don't even realise it .

VinLieger

10000maniacs wrote: »

It is quite shocking that the likes of BBC presenters Andrew Marr, John Humphrys, Nick Robinson, Kirsty Wark and Emily Maitlis never challenge any Tory politicians on alternatives to the backstop. It's as if BBC's editorial stance is firmly in the Brexit camp now, and probably always was. Especially on the Brexit issues relating to Ireland.
The BBC's Brexit bias is now so deep they don't even realise it .

They arent in the brexit camp they are in the "whoever is in government" camp as they are deathly afraid of loosing any money.

Topgear on Dave

10000maniacs wrote: »

It's as if BBC's editorial stance is firmly in the Brexit camp now, and probably always was. Especially on the Brexit issues relating to Ireland.

"He who pays the piper calls the tune"

This is the Iraq war mark 2 if anyone remembers the lead up to that. Full steam ahead and damn anyone who gets in the way at this stage.

Seth Brundle

prawnsambo wrote: »

You can't put customs duties on invoices. This is something that is done at the point and time of entry. Because duties are paid on the value of goods (at the exchange rate at the time of presentation at customs) plus the cost of shipping. And if any local VAT is to be applied, that's done on top of the duties. Plus of course customs duties are levied on the importer and paid to the revenue service of the importing country.

Edit: You will probably need a customs clearance agent to do all the paperwork for you unless you are intending to take it on in-house.

Cheers.
There is a Brexit team looking after the changes but the lack of knowledge in terms of what is going to happen in less than two months means that most of what they're doing is bases on assumptions and guesswork.
In terms of duty and tariffs, this needs to be recorded by SAP and needs to be made available within various reports (I shouldnt have said invoices) especially for interconpany transfers. This all takes time to develop, test and roll out.

prawnsambo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Cheers.
There is a Brexit team looking after the changes but the lack of knowledge in terms of what is going to happen in less than two months means that most of what they're doing is bases on assumptions and guesswork.
In terms of duty and tariffs, this needs to be recorded by SAP and needs to be made available within various reports (I shouldnt have said invoices) especially for interconpany transfers. This all takes time to develop, test and roll out.

It's a long time since I dealt with this kind of thing (pre-CU and SM), but tariffs are usually paid by the shipping company and charged to the recipient. It may well have moved on to the point that you can raise those charges yourself and (if approved) pay them over to Revenue on a monthly basis like VAT.

robinph

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's a long time since I dealt with this kind of thing (pre-CU and SM), but tariffs are usually paid by the shipping company and charged to the recipient. It may well have moved on to the point that you can raise those charges yourself and (if approved) pay them over to Revenue on a monthly basis like VAT.

That the tariffs are decided on by the receiving country for the benefit of the receiving country and generally in order to annoy the supplying country I'd expect it all to be dealt with at the other end and no concern of the supplier, other than stating what it is they are shipping.

EdgeCase

VinLieger wrote: »

They arent in the brexit camp they are in the "whoever is in government" camp as they are deathly afraid of loosing any money.

I don't know. I think the UK is just largely in group think mode. It's been like this on the EU for years.

Pre Brexit you either got a completely glazed over look if you mentioned anything to to with the EU, or someone spouting Euro myths about bendy banannas.

I don't really see the BBC coverage as being anything new. This is the same broadcaster that regularly trotted out silly euro stereotypes. It's the same broadcaster that absolutely made a mockery of Ireland in the late 1990s on an EastEnders trio to Dublin and though it was reasonable to include farm animals in a street scene in Dublin. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EastEnders_episodes_in_Ireland

I think at times the BBC paints this image of the ultimate virtuous public service broadcaster and we sometimes tend to drink down the hype.

What effort did the BBC make to ever cover the European parliament, or goings on at any of the EU institutions? I don't remember any other than when UKIP was making a scene in the European parliament. RTE often isn't great at it but it makes more of an effort. I didn't see much coverage at all. The general UK media attitude has always been totally dismissive of all things Euro for the most part and the tabloids have historically been extremely hostile towards it.

It's those attitudes that informed public opinion for the last four decades. It's hard to know which came first the chicken or the egg. Was the media driving or following public opinion? I would suspect with the tabloids at least it was definitely in the driving seat.

Seth Brundle

A perfect analogy to those pushing the "alternative Tech" waffle...

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1092402765798592512

EdgeCase

Unfortunately for them, the EU and Irish Government seem a lot more tech savvy.

It's hard to bluff the EU on border security technology.

Enzokk

VinLieger wrote: »

They arent in the brexit camp they are in the "whoever is in government" camp as they are deathly afraid of loosing any money.

You are correct I think, they are also scared of reforms. It doesn't seem right that your public broadcaster has their funding tied to whoever is in charge. The government in charge can decide one moment to legislate that funding is cut and it will impact your point of reporting. Crazy system surely.

I am not sure if this has been linked yet but May will appoint a working group to find those alternative arrangements to the backstop.

May appoints Brexit hardliners to backstop working group

Theresa May has appointed three hardline Brexiteers to an official working group charged with finding “alternative arrangements” to replace the Northern Ireland backstop. Brexiteers Steve Baker, Owen Patterson and Marcus Fysh will join Remainer former ministers Damian Green and Nicky Morgan in the working group which will meet for the first time on Monday.

“The government is establishing an Alternative Arrangements Working Group which will hold regular meetings with Steve Barclay, the secretary of state for exiting the EU. Officials from HMRC, Cabinet Office Europe Unit, Number 10 and other relevant departments will support this, and ministers will be able to commission advice from them,” Downing Street said in a statement on Sunday night.

Don't worry, the UK government is now exploring whether and what options are available as alternate options to the border. We are only less than 2 months away from Brexit but I am sure they will find those arrangements and will be able to convince the EU to drop the backstop.

briany

EdgeCase wrote: »

Unfortunately for them, the EU and Irish Government seem a lot more tech savvy.

It's hard to bluff the EU on border security technology.

I haven't seen a proper proposal on technological solutions. I've just seen assertions that they exist and some references to the Sweden/Norway border. Has the UK put a together any kind of presentation for the EU to show a workable tech border?

And even at that, there's only a bit less than two months left, so what would tech border advocates be saying? That they could get it ready in that time?

VinLieger

briany wrote: »

I haven't seen a proper proposal on technological solutions. I've just seen assertions that they exist and some references to the Sweden/Norway border. Has the UK put a together any kind of presentation for the EU to show a workable tech border?

And even at that, there's only a bit less than two months left, so what would tech border advocates be saying? That they could get it ready in that time?

Technology may exist that suits Sweden/Norway but there is literally no technology in the world right now that by itself can solve problems like this

https://goo.gl/maps/uijPGrqcWvp

Or this

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.0965398,-6.3628517,532m/data=!3m1!1e3


The fact that so many MP's keep claiming the contrary proves they have never seen the scale of the issue that problems like these just 2 examples of the 200+ crossings present

Hurrache

Brexit MPs are becoming a caricature of the scheming lying politician at this stage. Have they no awareness there's a world outside of them? They were caught by the short and curlies here.
https://twitter.com/MartinSelmayr/status/1092409534029746178

Sam Russell

briany wrote: »

I haven't seen a proper proposal on technological solutions. I've just seen assertions that they exist and some references to the Sweden/Norway border. Has the UK put a together any kind of presentation for the EU to show a workable tech border?

And even at that, there's only a bit less than two months left, so what would tech border advocates be saying? That they could get it ready in that time?

But this is all irrelevant. Once a 'technical' solution to the backstop is found, then the need for a backstop is cancelled and everyone is happy. However, the fact that the opposition to the backstop comes from people who cannot even describe the 'technical' solution without those listening falling around laughing is the reason the backstop is needed.

[They talk of ANPR cameras (oops that is physical structure right there) and mobile phone location (but what is actually in the truck is what matters) and wonder why eyes roll skywards!]

Even within the current fully inspected regime we get sick cows being fed to EU markets.